Now that I live in Florida, I am taking advantage of the 2nd..

[TyphusoftheDH]

2nd the reason for gun crime in the U.S?

No, the 2nd is not the reason there is so much gun crime in the U.S, it would be just the same if guns were outlawed. Marijuana is outlawed, but I hear plenty of shit at school from kids who \"can\'t wait to get home and light a bowl\".:|~

 

[Shawn R. L.]

GW still sux...........

 

[Temporary Sanity]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.
GW still sux...........

:beer::drunk::beer::drunk::beer::drunk:

 

[Rigged4Mini]

With the French being on the receiving end of guns for most of recorded history.. I\'m not amazed why they don\'t like guns. =)

As for the Brits... Hitler was taken down with guns.. and umm..so were the Red Coats... so I guess they are evenly split on good/bad theory of weapons. =)

 

[uberdark]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Originally posted by uberdark


to take your stance on this lets look at what happens if the u.s. lessens their laws on guns and all goes well here, but then some guys in russia buy some guns from here cause they are cheaper and the laws here as much less drastic. they go back to russia with said guns and let into a crowd of people at a mall.

It\'s obvious you do not know any of the 2000+ gun laws on the books.

A foreign citizen cannot walk into a gun store and buy a gun.

Then there\'s the transportation issue. Are you telling me that this Russian is going to get aboard a plane with a gun, and get into his country with a gun from America?
If he can do that he already has the know how to get one in his own country via the black market.
Might as well get a real Kalashnikov. It would be cheaper than the plane tickets.

Our gun laws in no way affect other countries, if that were the case, then gun laws of Africa, or the Middle East, which are far laxer than ours, would see AK-47\'s on every street corner of Europe.

The simple fact is we write our laws for us, for our needs.

The truth of the matter is, if you are not coming into my home, threatening the life of me or mine, you have nothing to fear from my guns.

edit: And how would you propose to take the guns away from us that believe it is a right?
Send in the police? Hold us at gun point?

You\'d merely be using guns to force others to your will without getting your own hands dirty.

ok fine point taken. i agree with you on it about russian or other people coming to america.

but to say we do not affect other people in the world based by our laws is ludicrous. each law we pass affects others. its simple domino effect. i honestly dont care what you say about guns cause i honestly have my own opinions and am keeping them to myself, but to bring out that we make laws just for ourselves and our country is ludicrous. everything else affects everything else. that cannot be disproven. thats what i am saying. what about when one country makes a trade embargo against another country? thats straight forward enough for you to understand. how about a company buys stock in another company in america. the senate passes a law that allows this company to lease a toll road and fires the americans who used to take care of things and outsources to another country, so when you say our laws dont affect others just think of that.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by uberdark
ok fine point taken. i agree with you on it about russian or other people coming to america.

but to say we do not affect other people in the world based by our laws is ludicrous. each law we pass affects others. its simple domino effect. i honestly dont care what you say about guns cause i honestly have my own opinions and am keeping them to myself, but to bring out that we make laws just for ourselves and our country is ludicrous. everything else affects everything else. that cannot be disproven. thats what i am saying. what about when one country makes a trade embargo against another country? thats straight forward enough for you to understand. how about a company buys stock in another company in america. the senate passes a law that allows this company to lease a toll road and fires the americans who used to take care of things and outsources to another country, so when you say our laws dont affect others just think of that.

Ok, let\'s clarify.
There are laws that dictate behavior within a country (ie. speeding laws, taxes, justice) and Foreign Policy.

While Foreign Policy may affect other countries, behavioral laws do not.
We can\'t arrest a Chinese guy in China for breaking their speeding laws or committing murder in their country, and vice versa.
Gun Control clearly falls into the Internal behavior law category.

To be honest, while Foreign Policy may affect others on paper it really depends on how it is enforced.
For example: We have very clear cut laws and penalties for Illegal Immigration, yet we have 12-20 million illegal immigrants in this country who protest and march in our streets with no consequences.

Regarding gun control laws, as stated earlier we have over 2000+ on the books as we speak, 2000+ laws that are not being enforced.
I have a great problem with our law makers making new laws when they cannot or will not enforce the current ones.

Legislation for legislation\'s sake is not a good thing.

I am following the current gun control laws, others are not.
Why should I want more restrictive laws to keep my fellow law abiding citizens unarmed, when the criminals will just ignore those laws as well?

 

[Modderrhu]

What kind of brush do you use?

 

[uberstupor]

btw this is totally a joke dave... i am not serious.

but lets let it rest.

rock on

uber

 

[supervike]

Where is a moderator when you need one....

I think that summed it up pretty well.

 

[Evil Dave]

While I agree that the Gun Control issue is dead, (We\'ll never see eye to eye) my question still remains.

Why do people who are completely unaffected by our laws feel the need to so vehemently speak out against them?

We are different nations, with different needs and often different ideals. Our nation\'s laws reflect that.

What\'s at stake to you? Why do you care?

I\'m quite sure there are laws in England, Germany, France, Zimbabwe, wherever, that I would find abhorrent, however, I don\'t feel the need to belittle or castigate those citizens of those nations who follow those laws, or rail against their laws.
Their laws serve them, mine serve me.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
While I agree that the Gun Control issue is dead, (We\'ll never see eye to eye) my question still remains.

Why do people who are completely unaffected by our laws feel the need to so vehemently speak out against them?

We are different nations, with different needs and often different ideals. Our nation\'s laws reflect that.

What\'s at stake to you? Why do you care?

Same reason people in the blue states mess with people in the red states. Same reason paople have homeowners associations. Imposing one\'s own will on others.

 

[Kaczy]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
my question still remains.

Why do people who are completely unaffected by our laws feel the need to so vehemently speak out against them?

We are different nations, with different needs and often different ideals. Our nation\'s laws reflect that.

What\'s at stake to you? Why do you care?

I suppose the possibility that, I dunno, they\'re good people and actually care about others in other countries, especially individuals they may know well from CMON itself, is completely out of the question, right?

Kaczy

 

[uberstupor]

i like pez

 

[uberdark]

you like pez? me too?!

 

[matty1001]

I prefer Pamela Violets (SP?)
Almost like eating make up.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Kaczy

I suppose the possibility that, I dunno, they\'re good people and actually care about others in other countries, especially individuals they may know well from CMON itself, is completely out of the question, right?

Kaczy [/quote]

Well, there\'s ways of showing that you care.

Say, for example, you decide that you want to go to Pamplona and run with the bulls.

There\'s: Kaczy, that\'s kinda dangerous, but it\'s not illegal and if you really want to then it\'s your right to do so. I just wish you\'d think about it.

Now this method is Okay as it denotes a level of concern for your well being, as well as realizing that as an adult with free will the decision is up to you, and that the law allows you to make this decision.

Then there\'s: Kaczy, you\'re a fucking idiot for wanting to run with the bulls. It should be illegal. Let\'s take away the bulls.

Now this method smacks of a self righteous ass who believes their decisions are the only right decisions, that you are not responsible enough to make decisions for yourself and is willing to trample over the rights of those who disagree, to take away your choice to decide, even though the law allows you to make that choice.

 

[uberdark]

WOA! there dave.

this kaczy was just making his opinion heard and did not start cussing you out. chill out man

moderator help please.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by uberdark
WOA! there dave.

this kaczy was just making his opinion heard and did not start cussing you out. chill out man

moderator help please.

I was not cussing her/him, I was making a point, read it again.
This is an example of how people come across when discussing issues they do not believe in and are unwilling to let bygones be bygones.

It is also a very accurate example of the treatment I get from quite a few anti-gun people and anti-smokers.

 

[Avelorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
While I agree that the Gun Control issue is dead, (We\'ll never see eye to eye) my question still remains.

Why do people who are completely unaffected by our laws feel the need to so vehemently speak out against them?

We are different nations, with different needs and often different ideals. Our nation\'s laws reflect that.

What\'s at stake to you? Why do you care?

I\'m quite sure there are laws in England, Germany, France, Zimbabwe, wherever, that I would find abhorrent, however, I don\'t feel the need to belittle or castigate those citizens of those nations who follow those laws, or rail against their laws.
Their laws serve them, mine serve me.

I will not debate guns again at this time. But I found this interesting.

Objectivity (not that I believe that thw world is obejctive but laws must try to be, I can develop that further if you want). I believe that all men and women are born and should be treated equally. If there is a law for putting babies on racks in Norway, I will speak up against it.

\"Hey Avelorn, going to Norway to rack a babie is kinda\' bad. I know it\'s not illegal there,so you have the right to do so if you really want, I\'d just wish you\'d think about it\"

If that\'s all you\'ve got to say to me I\'m quite disappointed in you!

If I feel a Welfare system does not cover well for the poor I will speak up againts it. If I think \"your\" gun-laws are doing more harm then good, I will speak up against it.

Where do I trample on your rights by expressing my opinion on a matter? Where do I take away your choice to decide by trying to change peoples views on a matter? A firm divide between countries and speaking about \"cultural differences\" just reeks of cultural determinism. Laws do have a somewhat cultural foundation but it doesn\'t mean that they are sprung out of the \"soul of the people\" so to speak. At least that is my opinion. If it was like that.. nothing would ever change, but it does. I believe that the people have basically the same interests in any other country as we have here in \"ours\".

I feel solidarity through national borders as I can see that other people are like myself. And if anyone somewhere in the world suffers because of laws I will of course not give those laws my consent. And America is one of the countries that is always discussed everywhere else. Why? Well switch on our television, read our newspapers etc. I know far more of the internal politics in U.S. then I know about Denmark or Norway.. esp. Norway.

And of course it also works the other way around. I\'m not happy that some U.S. movements like the anti-abortion, fueled here in Sweden by the christian right, is gaining ground here in Sweden. But it\'s not because it comes from America but because I do not agree with what they say. There are pro-choice and anti-abortion movements in U.S. I dont\' see you as a unified \"you\"

What I do find problematic is media and money. That it is those with the most amount of money that can be heard most and therefor influence the questions we put forward etc. It\'s very difficult to find a balance in that.

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Originally posted by Kaczy

I suppose the possibility that, I dunno, they\'re good people and actually care about others in other countries, especially individuals they may know well from CMON itself, is completely out of the question, right?

Kaczy

Well, there\'s ways of showing that you care.

Say, for example, you decide that you want to go to Pamplona and run with the bulls.

There\'s: Kaczy, that\'s kinda dangerous, but it\'s not illegal and if you really want to then it\'s your right to do so. I just wish you\'d think about it.

Now this method is Okay as it denotes a level of concern for your well being, as well as realizing that as an adult with free will the decision is up to you, and that the law allows you to make this decision.

Then there\'s: Kaczy, you\'re a fucking idiot for wanting to run with the bulls. It should be illegal. Let\'s take away the bulls.

Now this method smacks of a self righteous ass who believes their decisions are the only right decisions, that you are not responsible enough to make decisions for yourself and is willing to trample over the rights of those who disagree, to take away your choice to decide, even though the law allows you to make that choice. [/quote]


Just a question, when you take up arms ( pitchfork or gun, this is not about weapons...) to defend the values you believe in, the american revolution for example, which solution is used ? I would say the second, and I\'m pretty sure you agree with the american revolution but you seem to think that the second option is systematicaly bad.

Guess that what I\'m saying is that not everything is black or white. Try imagining why other people say what they say, in stead of lashing out without trying to understand.