Painting teams

[Prophanti]

I don\'t mind teams if it\'s about meeting people and wearing matching shirts, but I get slightly annoyed when people say \"We got x number of awards from possible y amount\", as in this post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154938

When I was interested in paint comps it was all about single competition, 1 vs all etc, but there\'s a kind of Nationalist flavour to the scene these days that I don\'t like.

Is this a legitimate view?

 

[Ritual]

So far, from my experience, the team building initiatives have mostly been about creating a community feeling and a positive environment where people help each other developing their skills. I have not seen much in the way of rivalry between different teams.

But, it would indeed be a shame if that would be the direction things took (not saying it has, though).

 

[demonherald]

same with Anders on this one . I have only really seen it being about a community of like minded folk getting together ad bouncing ideas off of each other... Of course the flipside is that there will always be some rivalry there especially this hobby beig dominated by male painters who can\'t help but compete... But I don\'t ever see any of it as beig serious heated rivalry more a good fun poke at each other and I gotta say a little rivalry can bring the worst out in people but in most cases it really does bring out the best I mean at the end of the day wether we freely admit it or not all of us that enter competitions have that little competitive streak with us that pushes us onwards and challenges us more and more..


btw welcome to the forums..

 

[War Griffon]

As Ritual has said really
The recent Platoon Britannica event at Warhammer World was all about meeting other painters in the UK displaying our work and discussing painting/sculptingmini photography with anyone that was interested.

It was in no way deviating from the single person entering a comp but will hopefully develope the knowledge/skills of like minded people in the UK and to help them compete in competitions and hopefully gain recognition for their work in the process.

At the end of the day you could accaint it to a community such as Coolmini as we all meet on line but its nice to meet face to face put names to faces and shair ideas & methods that we otherwise might not attempt on our own.

I see what you mean from that thread though If it was me I would have worded it a lot differently but then apart from a few Europeans you don\'t get many outside of the US/Canada entering the US Demons anyway compare to the UK GD where we are competing against most of Europe and a spattering of US/Canadians so the team thing is looked on slightly differently over here.

But at the end of the day it is just a group of people that know each other meeting up and entering as individuals even if they have met before and exchanged ideas/ methods After all could you imagine how much fun you wouldn\'t have if you went along to say the UK GD with 8,000+ other people and not know anybody compared to going along and meeting up with other like minded people?
I have seen it from both sides.

 

[akaranseth]

The goal behind a team is essentially to pool our ressources together in order to help each other improved. Otherwise the results are personal and our demons are ours as individuals. Obviously it is always fun to see how many awards the Team brought back but it is rarely in the spirit of \"yes we got more than the other team\".

Frankly there is absolutely no rivalries between us. Team Montreal and Team North America have been working together for one single goal which is to promote the hobby and push it forward and honestly by seeing the level of competition increasing in both Chicago and Toronto I can say that we succeeded and that we will continue to push the hobby forward.

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

As being a member of Team North America.. I can say what makes us really a team is we wear the same T-Shirts at the show. In most cases none of us even live in the same city really. So getting together and sharing techniques and modeling and painting is difficult. What we do is have a small team forum where we discuss projects and offer suggestions on each others work. Ultimately were just a group of friends who go to Games day to compete, have fun, eat dinner one night and share war stories.

 

[lizcam]

I\'m not part of any \"team\" but I do belong to the Ebay group WAMP (War Gaming and Miniature Paradise). We have a monthly comp amoung ourselves but when one or more of us enters another comp like IP or Salute we cheer for each other and smack talk a bit. That\'s about it and I would assume the \"teams\" are pretty much the same. Just goofs goofing mostly.

 

[skeeve]

Originally posted by Prophanti
I don\'t mind teams if it\'s about meeting people and wearing matching shirts, but I get slightly annoyed when people say \"We got x number of awards from possible y amount\", as in this post http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154938

When I was interested in paint comps it was all about single competition, 1 vs all etc, but there\'s a kind of Nationalist flavour to the scene these days that I don\'t like.

Is this a legitimate view?

Very legitimate. I can personally show you several recent wining miniature that went through countless numbers of \"feedback\" sessions during the painting/converting. Within \"teams\" such a process is incredibly efficient and contrary to what you see on many forums almost devoid \"oh it is so freaking amazing blah blah blah\" type of noise.
Don\'t get me wrong it is flattering when somebody thinks that what you do is \"so freaking amazing\" but sometimes you look for a criticism and things that you are overlooking rather then praise.

 

[PlatoonBritRob]

As a founder member of Platoon Britannica I would like to say one thing, congrats to them for winning that many demons, great effort.

Yes okay the wording sounds a little \'pompous\'. But hey they put the effort in as painters and it showed in results and also what do you expect from the North Americans anyway

Most painting competitions state that the work must belong to one person, but the rules don\'t mention anything about getting advice from friends, mates or team members, is that not how people can improve? by getting that advice.

As for the matter of being a team, we instigated PB to be more of a social event, where, as it has been mentioned, that like minded people come together and share their knowledge freely to help others improve and maybe improve themselves due to that interaction.

Will I enter a competition knowing that another member of PB has entered, damn right I will, its a competition, thats what we paint to a high standard for. I saw minis at the PB event that made me go \'OH wow\' can I ever match that, and instead I got inspired, because I know I have someone I can ask and get them to show me how to improve my techniques. And I\'ve been painting for 25 years now.

And if they are getting up on stage to collect an award, I\'ll be cheering for them, because I know they put in the effort to win that award, and if someone else gets up with a different T-shirt on, they\'ll still get the same response. Well almost

PB is based in the UK, we have an Iclandic member, another from Poland one person from the USofA who really wanted to be there, does that mean we are nationalistic, nope just based in the UK, hence the use of the Union Jack in our logo. Will we interact with other teams at events, damn right we will, its about friendship and a mutual enjoyment of painting.

RobA

 

[Aliengod3]

What I have noticed is that these groups are never comprised of a large variety in skill level. It normally is just a group of people who have won countless awards and it bothers me. These groups should have those people who have won awards but they should also have people who aspire to achieve the same ends. They should be helping other people achieve such greatness not just wearing similar shirts so that when they get their picture taken with their Golden Demon people know who they represent. I know that the Canadian team has more than just top painters but how many of the others carry themselves the same way? Team North America is made up of only a group of people that constantly compete in US gamesday\'s. To me it seems like these groups are just elite clubs that most people cannot join :~(

 

[Roger Bunting]

Speaking as someone who was at Platoon Britannica and has not won an award (or even finished a mini, except a test piece, since returning to the hobby), I can say at least PB is not just comprised of the elite in painting. Also, maybe it only appears that teams have award winners exclusively due to the fact they\'re the ones who get their photos taken when they win those awards.

 

[akaranseth]

Originally posted by Aliengod3
What I have noticed is that these groups are never comprised of a large variety in skill level. It normally is just a group of people who have won countless awards and it bothers me.

I cannot speak for the other teams but Team Montreal is composed of several members that are mostly gaming painters that aspire to improve their skills and eventually win a demon or two. Most of them will accompany us to the Canadian Golden Demon but do not necessarily have the motivation to travel farther than that which is understandable. I personally attend roughly 4-6 competitions outside of Canada every year which takes a lot of resources and time do afford those trips and make sure I have something new for each of them. A lot of the members from our Team are not ready and will most likely will never be ready for such commitments. So the one you saw in Chicago are more dedicated painters explaining the fewer amount. Look at our group picture from Toronto and you will notice that not everyone on it is a Golden Demon Winner:

Furthermore a lot of these teams are not necessarily a regional beacon. We are called Team Montreal because we all met at one point or the other in Montreal but we have members from around the province and out. Team Montreal is essentially a team of friends to help the cohesion among us. We know that every activities we do will be a success because of this cohesion. So before integrating a member we make sure that he will work well with the team. A lot of team are like this. You guarantee your success by making sure the team work well together.

Nothing prohibit you from creating your own team or club where you are with local painters that are eager to improve. Even if you are not \"top\" painters you have a lot to learn from each other. You can always invite other painters such as myself or Jeremie to give a masterclass to give you a good kick start. Modeling and painting clubs have been around for years among the military, railroad and historical milieu but remains unfamiliar to us fantasy or gaming painters. We did not create anything, we simply took something that already existed elsewhere and adapted it to our hobby!

 

[skeeve]

Originally posted by Aliengod3
It normally is just a group of people who have won countless awards and it bothers me. These groups should have those people who have won awards but they should also have people who aspire to achieve the same ends. They should be helping other people achieve such greatness not just wearing similar shirts so that when they get their picture taken with their Golden Demon people know who they represent. I know that the Canadian team has more than just top painters but how many of the others carry themselves the same way? Team North America is made up of only a group of people that constantly compete in US gamesday\'s. To me it seems like these groups are just elite clubs that most people cannot join :~(

And this attitude actually bothers me. How do you technically see this, if I may ask? A member of a team running around jumping at each an every person who paints something screaming \"HEY! Come come, I will help you to achieve greatness!!\". All these teams have forums that you can join and participate in it. You can ask questions and critiques, you can post images of your mini and ask people\'s opinion, you can ask specific people about specific techniques or tips. May be not you personally but \"the responsibility\" for improvment is on the person who wants to improve, no?
The resources are there and available yet unless you decided to participate how else members of that or this team supposed to know you even exist and actually want to achieve greatness (or at least improve)?

Many of this people actually do run demos and seminars; sometimes you can find announcement of those events on corresponding forums (which usually are duplicated on comon as well)

As for being an \"elite club that most people cannot join\", did you actually tried? Did somebody said that you cannot join because you didn\'t win something? Can you be more specific then, with names and places so we can all say boo-hoo to them?

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by Aliengod3
What I have noticed is that these groups are never comprised of a large variety in skill level. It normally is just a group of people who have won countless awards and it bothers me. These groups should have those people who have won awards but they should also have people who aspire to achieve the same ends. They should be helping other people achieve such greatness not just wearing similar shirts so that when they get their picture taken with their Golden Demon people know who they represent. I know that the Canadian team has more than just top painters but how many of the others carry themselves the same way? Team North America is made up of only a group of people that constantly compete in US gamesday\'s. To me it seems like these groups are just elite clubs that most people cannot join :~(

Well again your wrong, In Team North America we have members of all levels, some who have never won a Golden Demon and others who yes have one many and Chris Borer who has won even 4 swords..its the lucky shorts by the way Yes you are correct in that you cant join, we do send out invites to people now and then but as for now were closed. We do have a forum that is private, but in most cases we are so busy with real life that most rarely have the time to post anyhow. What is Team North America? Nothing really other than as Ive already said a group of friends who have been going to and attending Games Days, gen Cons, Adepticons and what not since the mid 90\'s for some of us. Two years ago, after a GD Joe Orteza said hey we should make a Team like the French do.. and so thats where it began..we thought about a name and Team North America came up as a suggestion as we had Canadian and American members..so it stuck. As a group we did the Primarch Project last year as out Demon Project. Its also how the group size was picked, one Primarch for each member..which kept us a small group that we haven\'t really changed since.

My question is, if we hadn\'t chose the name Team North America, but say Team \"Bob\" or Team Uberpainters\" or what ever..would you be having the same issue..what if we dropped the team name and as a group of FRIENDS we continued to enter and won.. would you still be upset?

In all honesty when every I see this crap come up every year around this time, the ultimate reason behind the whine..Yes I called it a whine..inst because were a team or we won..its because you didn\'t.. The answer is simple.. quit complaining about why you didn\'t win, spend the devoted hours to improving your skills and you till will win awards..and if you have a group of friends.. get clever name and print some t shirts and go have fun like the rest of us.

After all its just a contest painting silly toy soldiers.

 

[Sukigod]

I agree with skeeves point on this one. Here\'s a little exercise to see if the thinking is in the right place. Please be patient....

Replace the word \"paint-ed-ing-etc\" with playing 40K. A dedicated group of players who are fairly good generals compete with each other between Gamedays and tournaments, thus making themselves better. As thier generalship gets better they\'re a tougher match for each other, thus making each other better players. On and on....

They show up at a tournament and take a few of the top places. Good for them - dedication, learning, blood, sweat and tears have earned them the right. Only by wearing the same t-shirts does it become evident that they all play against each other. Does this mean they don\'t deserve the wins? I think not.

Sure, in this case location may have something to do with this as you generally have to live in the same area to play against someone often but that doesn\'t matter as far as the painting.

Just sounds like someone feeling left out or a little jealous.

 

[mattsterbenz]

Originally posted by Aliengod3
To me it seems like these groups are just elite clubs that most people cannot join :~(

 

[Prophanti]

Thanks for the replies guys. I have heard the rational behind the Team idea, which sounds great, and I do believe that the origianl Team France was formed with this in mind (just a gut feeling from the community they have).

It\'s just the proliferation of other teams set up along lines of nationality that seems a bit off to me (For the Glory of the Reich I claim this Daemon! etc etc). I don\'t think that mini painting should be Russians vs Iraqis, but rather the individual verses his peers. That is just personal opinion though, and I wanted to see if anyone else felt that way (sorry to waste your time with this whiney crap Dragon Forge Design, thanks for not being a douche about it).

 

[nick232]

how did the guy on warseer calculate how many deamon the COULD have won??

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by nick232
how did the guy on warseer calculate how many deamon the COULD have won??

He didn\'t calculate how many could have been won it was the number won, but the number just didn\'t include Team Montreal or team North America, but include both James and Cathy Wappleious and others like Lunchbox Jeff and so on.. all friends who know each other and participate on forums together. I really think his comment is taken out of context.

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by Prophanti
Thanks for the replies guys. I have heard the rational behind the Team idea, which sounds great, and I do believe that the origianl Team France was formed with this in mind (just a gut feeling from the community they have).

It\'s just the proliferation of other teams set up along lines of nationality that seems a bit off to me (For the Glory of the Reich I claim this Daemon! etc etc). I don\'t think that mini painting should be Russians vs Iraqis, but rather the individual verses his peers. That is just personal opinion though, and I wanted to see if anyone else felt that way (sorry to waste your time with this whiney crap Dragon Forge Design, thanks for not being a douche about it).

Prophanti, I\'m sorry if my comments come of harsh or as you put it being a douche (Ive been called worse by th way) its just that eveyr year after a Golden demon competition season gets going, we get a flood of emails about how unfair one thing or another is and yes it does come off as a big whine and cry fest. Yes you are allowed your opinion and it is welcomed, as much as I am also allowed my opinion on the matter.

But in previous years its been,

- The professionals shouldn\'t be able to compete.We should have many levels of competition so everyone gets a chance to win.. Its the Everyones a winner mentality thats instilled in schools these days to kids..no one looses..well guess what they do. Not everyone can win.

- The Foreigners shouldn\'t be able to come here and steal out deamons..they have their own contests. That was after Natalya Melnik (Alexi Z) came over and won two swords from Russia or even some of the Canadians and French came and won awards in previous years. Should we have told the Father and Son that Came from Mexico this year to compete and win that we don\'t want them..go home you can\'t have out deamons? No we shouldn\'t we should congratulate them for their achievement. And had they had a Team Mexico shirts on that would of been cool!

- People who win shouldn\'t be able to compete again.In other words..win once your done..pas the love around so everyone gets a trophy..Ahh No!

- The painting teams cheat, the painting teams are unfair, the painting teams win all the awards..and so on. There have been vast conspiracy\'s launched every year about how the teams cheat to win all the awards..sad really.

The list can go on.. but the simple fact is every year someone comes up with the excuse as to why someone else won and they didn\'t and what doesn\'t ever come into the discussion is the years of practicing ones skills and the hard work and financial expense it takes to travel and win one of these dumb things.

Had we taken away the Tshirts, we would of just been a bunch of men and women walking up on the podium to collect their trophies for their hard work.. adding a name in my opinion adds a little fun to it. By the way I didn\'t place this year.. I didn\'t work hard enough to win an award. I must work harder for next year