\"Patenting\" Ideas?

[Otter]

This topic draws from the discussion over borrowing ideas a few weeks back, combined with my own debate over how to handle my submission for the new Cool Mini or Not painting competition.*

Question - Is there a way to \"patent\" or otherwise register an idea for a paintjob or a conversion? Or because this is art, SHOULD there be?

Since this is a community of artists, everyone is supposed to learn from each other. I think it\'s also pretty much accepted that no one is supposed to STEAL from each other.

I\'m just going to throw out a whole bunch of questions here, otherwise this will turn into one big essay...

What if two or more people come up with the same design independently? Or what if one person is faster in the execution of their conversion and/or paintjob than the other, and just happens to post a few days before their counterpart? How would credit for the \"originality\" of the work be decided in this instance?

It\'s nobody\'s fault that these two artists just happened to come up with the same idea at the same time - Should the one that posts later be penalized for \"theft\" even though the idea was not stolen at all? Or are the pieces evaluated on their own merit independent of the idea itself?

And how do you go about \"patenting\" an idea for a conversion anyhow? The best solution is to show works in progress, which generally just take up archive space and are a bit boring for the viewers, and might adversely affect the final judging score through taking away from the \"shock novelty\" factor of your work.

Finally, isn\'t the idea of registering an artistic concept against the notion of \"Art for Art\'s Sake\" anyhow?

- Otter
\"Never send a ferret to do a weasel\'s work\"

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

First let me say that you can\'t patent a paintjob or a conversion. By definition, \"a patent grants the exclusive right to make, use and sell an invention\". You would have to prove that you \"invented\" it first, which with Art is impossible. Patents are intended for original \"inventions\", scientific or business processes, etc. basically, empirical or actual things that can be reproduced.

Technically, what you are talking about is a copyright, \"the exclusive legal right to reproduce and control an original literary, musical or artistic work\". Again nearly impossible as we are all using the copyrighted intellectual property of the miniature producers. If you tried to copy right a conversion of a Space Marine, even a conversion, I think GW would have something to say about it.

Well, enough of the dictionary.... I think what you are really asking is how do you protect you ideas and get credit for being first or not get penalized for posting it second, even when arrived at independently.

There isn\'t a way and I don\'t really think it matters. Here\'s why. . . I think most people would rate it based on individual merit. Also, I for one don\'t look at the dates a mini is posted when rating. I could see the later version first or even not come across it at all (lots of images).

If you could copyright artistic styles, etc, there would be only one cubist, one impressionist, etc. There would be a lot less art and frankly even more lawyers (of which there are enough already, no offense to the legal eagles out there. lol )

In art, true originality is hard to find. Each artist brings something different to their work, and borrows from those who come before. Art is self propigating, the more you see the more you are influenced by it.

Dispite our attempts at ranking you can\'t really quantify art.

Two works of art created independantly, or not, are likely to be judged against each other, particularly in a competition; but I believe the best executed version will always win out over who was \"first\". Because really, how would we know that the person didn\'t have the idea 8 months ago and only now had the time to execute it.

Well, that\'s my three cents, for what it\'s worth. lol

Cheers Darkblade

 

[Dragonsreach]

Wow what a concept question OTTER.
The whole principle of what constitutes PLAGARISM, is one that has hounded the Artistic community for many years. In fact if you look to those photographic societies throughout the world you will see that there have been many arguments about the self same issue.

A number of years ago I was plagarised by member of my then photographic society.
Living in Newcastle (Tyneside) there were a lot of changes going on and one of the changes was the removal of a derelict railway station. I took quite a few black & white Photo\'s of reasonable quality. Printed them and showed around the \'club\' to very favourable comments, with the intention of using them for part of a Royal Photographic Society Panel.
Lo\'n behold 2 weeks later virtually the same photo\'s show up in a competition, same lighting, composition, paper & base film, and at least one was awarded a place in the top three.

After the judging was awarded I was congratulated by a number of people for the photo\'s I\'d entered. Which seriously p****d me off as I hadn\'t entered the comp but a number of people recognised the images I\'d done two weeks before. (Needless to say the other Photographer & I had a few sharp works about artistic integrity. But he really was a classic example of the \'Billy-no-mates\')
{just a minute doesn\'t that seem a bit familiar to Otter\'s article.}

However I digress, the principle that there is, or should be, artistic integrity among this site is what we are talking about.
If Otter is to put up a completed concept 1st and then I do the exact same thing two weeks later, then I could be considered to be plagarising her, unless I could prove otherwise. (The onus of evidencing proof would thus fall on the secondary poster.)
However, if I admit to copying the concept due to admiration, therein likes a more difficult subject to deal with and could lead to a very long diatribe between artists. Which is where the moderators of the site have to step in.

Now I know Otter lives somewhere in the \'States. I live in the UK and unless we\'ve been sharing the same dream dimention, I think we\'ve only had one conversation via PM\'s. So the chances of us both coming up with the exactly the same concept would be small.
Perhaps the way around this issue, is that we all agree to post the CMON2 mini on the closing date of the competition. (Boy will that give Chern An a headache!)

What do you think?

 

[DELTADOG]

The control of the community works !!

as shown a few day ago when a idiot little kiddy try to post a article about a marine conversion to make them knee... I think everybody here can renember. I hadn`t read this article before and gave it a ten and was confused about the comment of osiris that it was copied... now know better and as long those selfcontrol and the truth of some people function plagiatism has no chance here because minipainter are few compared to photograph communities etc.

 

[Otter]

Deltadog, community control is great in terms of catching plagiarism. Not too long ago, one of my articles was lifted from another forum and posted under someone else\'s name - In a matter of hours, it was caught, taken down, and eighteen tons of spam was sent directly to the plagarist\'s inbox.

The original question really wasn\'t intended to specifically discuss plagiarism, tho\' (As Darkblade correctly pointed out, it\'s more of a question of \"copyright\" than patent). I was wondering what the response of an artist\'s community is towards rewarding originality of effort. The incredibly cool thing about the human mind is that it comes up with so many neat options and opinions, and these should be rewarded. In Dragonsreach\'s experience, the theft of originality (plagiarism) is intentional and the thief should be hung by his toes. But what happens when two people come up with the same idea at the same time, and when one beats the other to submission?

This all seems like it results in rushed work... For example, I\'m frantically trying to get my CMON entry done just because I think that a ton of other people looked at the same figure and had the same idea for a conversion, and while I have no problem with people taking my ideas (such as they are), I don\'t know how they feel if I were to accidentally take theirs. So the original question came from wondering if it is better in terms of originality (and now plagiarism) to post the greenstuff version, post the finished painted figure, or wait until the entire piece is completed?

Seems like a patent rush for a drug company in this respect. Do I patent now when the drug is only partially tested and maybe lose shareholder interest, patent when it is successfully tested in a few trials but when my competition might also be perfecting a similar drug, or patent when the product is completely tested and ready for sale but when my competition might have already sealed up my rights to my product?

- Otter
\"Never send a ferret to do a weasel\'s work\"

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by Otter
I was wondering what the response of an artist\'s community is towards rewarding originality of effort....

I\'m frantically trying to get my CMON entry done just because I think that a ton of other people looked at the same figure and had the same idea for a conversion, and while I have no problem with people taking my ideas (such as they are), I don\'t know how they feel if I were to accidentally take theirs.

So the original question came from wondering if it is better in terms of originality (and now plagiarism) to post the greenstuff version, post the finished painted figure, or wait until the entire piece is completed?

Seems like a patent rush for a drug company in this respect. Do I patent now when the drug is only partially tested and maybe lose shareholder interest, patent when it is successfully tested in a few trials but when my competition might also be perfecting a similar drug, or patent when the product is completely tested and ready for sale but when my competition might have already sealed up my rights to my product?

I suppose the response of an artist community depends on the community. I think here it\'s pretty good. You get improved scores.

If you think your idea is shared by a ton of others then the \"originality\" value is probably not that high. Since you started by talking patent, Patents have a couple of requirements- novel (more strict than just original) and non-obvious. Now if someone else had done Freya as a Baywatch lifeguard in the first contest I\'d have been ticked so I never told anyone what I was doing before posting.
(and not a peep of what I\'m doing with the amazon either
If you figure tons of others are doing the same thing then there\'s no need to rush.

If you have your own website feel free to post WIP pics. Personally I\'d prefer you wait and just post the finished product on CMON. Keep a journal if you\'re worried someone will accuse you of stealing their idea. Or just shrug it off. I haven\'t heard here of someone stealing someone else\'s conversion idea.

As for the drug company analogy. They patent as soon as they have the idea and a reasonable belief it will work. If they waited until testing there\'s too great a risk of someone a) beating them to the punch or b) reverse engineering the same product. That\'s why they want the FDA to move faster because by the time they are ready to test it on humans they\'ve already probably lost about 8+ years on the patent. Patents have a relatively short life span.

And finally, if you come up with a way to do conversions that is truly novel, you can patent it, (say for example something involving a hyperbolic chamber, blow torch etc....) but the piece itself is still not patented - copyrighted though, and protected by VARA (visual artists rights act).

 

[supervike]

interesting...

I know when I come up against complex problems I like to make an example with \'absurd\' situations, so you can get to the point.

For instance. Let\'s say that you have the idea of painting your CMON mini with polka dots. I also have the idea of painting polka dots.

We submit them, not even aware of the others work. Even though the concept is the same, what are the chances that these two minis will look the same?

My point being that, unless you are purposefully plagarising someone elses work, it would be near impossible to have the same mini. There are too many variables, too many color choices, too many \"neat options\" as you say.

But, on the otherhand, If I am feverishly working to finish my polka dot mini, and I happen to be browsing and see your recently posted polka dot mini, I am going to say to myself, \"damn, otter beat me to it\".

I would assume that if it is a truly original idea, it would be safe to wait for the \'finished\' product. Plus, this way it has a much bigger impact.

If you have a fear of it being a common idea, or concept, then you better get that \'green\' posted!

Sorry, I have seemed to talk myself in circles!!

 

[-Percival-]

Actually it\'s not that hard to have the same color scheme as someone else...Unless you use a totally off the wall palette...

Heh...I just saw Lion Ice Queen by Honza...guess what...I painted my Red Lioness using the same paint scheme...It happens...especially if you use Gold as one of your trims...

Now diorama\'s...hmm...what if you get your idea from a Movie or book? Someone else maybe watching the same movie...or reading the same book.

k...how about the VIC 9 figure? heh...the figure is perched on a roof...So well probably see lots of Roof top dioramas...or moving the figure to a tower/castle to look like gargoyle.

Again...some figures just scream what the diorama should look like around them...Now don\'t get me wrong...lots of people lift ideas straight from others...but take it as compliment...\"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.\"

\"Another all too frequent complaint people make is about ‘copying’ figures. I don’t mean just taking a figure and reproducing it in a mold, that’s generally called ‘pirating’ and it’s theft, petty theft is you do it for yourself and you friends, serious theft if you do it for profit. What I’m talking about is copying ideas. I used to regularly get people coming up to me and saying so-and-so just copied your design. This is a rather silly attitude. Any artist builds on the work of others. Originality is a matter of degree, of subtle shades. Frequently the idea that someone ‘copied’ from me is one I got from an old illustration, which the illustrator almost certainly got from someone else. A good artist puts his own stamp on his work by choosing ideas and welding them into something his own. Being upset because someone used ideas you introduced is as silly as a painter being angry that another artist used the same color paint. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all, and if you were first to bring ideas to a new field you are almost certain to be imitated. Frequently it wouldn’t even be an idea that was copied so much as a pose. This is even more inane as there are only so many castable poses which can be made economically in a two part mold.\" -Tom Meier ex Ral Partha sculpter and founder and sculpter and owner of Thunderbolt Mountain Minatures.

http://www.thunderboltmountain.com/autobio.htm

 

[finn17]

There is an old, crazy theory...

There is an old crazy theory which I have seen re-vamped quite a few times, most recently and hilariously by Terry Pratchett, that really great ideas don\'t originate in an individual at all but have a kind of life of their own.

The theory is aligned with quantum physics-type thinking and would suggest that a large number of \'idearons\' (I made that name up)are generated in the death throes of a star somewhere (I made that up as well) and flash across the universe.

They (might) pass completely through a small planet such as our own and they (might) pass through the minds of a number of people. All these people then start to get the same sort of ideas, due to the effect of the idearon.

I know this sounds gaga and, no I haven\'t been raiding BME\'s, Rev\'s or Mouse\'s stash.

Thing is, if you take this as a hypothesis and then look for the kind of evidence that would exist if it were true....it\'s all there.

How else would you explain religion? (OK I know there is a wild theory about a supreme being, but C\'mon!). If you look at almost any major invention, the person who is credited with it almost always only got there, like Otter said, because they \'won a race\'. There are thousands of forgotten people out there who, \'almost invented the light bulb\', \'almost came up with the theory of evolution\' etc.

Well, I know that doesn\'t answer anyone\'s question but what the hecklol

 

[Chrispy]

My take on this from an artist point of veiw is that you can\'t \"patent\" A paint scheme, you can patent YOURS. Confusing but hear this simulation:

You see a mini online that has a paintjob you like. You paint yours like it, the artist is either flattered or enfuriated but can\'t do anything about it.

BUT, if you BUY the mini and say \"I painted this!\" or even say this mini is painted by someone else, it\'s forgary.

Plus, I think some minis gravatate towards a paintcheme... Who tells everyone to paint undead stuff in black cloacks? Who tells everyone that orcs must be greenish?

I said my peice, now I\'m outta here!

 

[Nomis]

Confused - more confused

To recap this thread - it seems that the concensus is that every one should be producing their own unique take on a figure either by converting it or by the paint job? and that copying another person\'s colour scheme is frowned on??

I can appreciate this with regards to conversions (bay watch babe for a very good example) I am not at all sure this is as applicable to painting.

If I post a Griffin Inquisitor (for eg) am I to be penalised because I have not come up with a unique colour combo? - personally I would rather be assessed on the quality of the work not on my choice of palette.

I am not condoning \"cheating\" where someone passes an idea off as their own and perhaps there should be a convention of identifying souces of inspiration when posting mini\'s- but this then raises the issue of people posting without any commentary.

I cut my painting teeth, as I am sure many others have done, on military figures where the essential thing is to depict a uniform accurately both in detail and, of course in colour. Arguments here would be about the correct shade of blue or red for a Napoleonic figure- not that two people had painted an Hussar the same shades of pink - or whatever.

Personally I have a real difficulty envisioning a model in alternative colour schemes - for example my SM\'s are a pretty standard yellow (Imp Fists) and the few Confrontation figures I have completed are painted as they appear on the cards - it\'s a big enough challenge trying to aspire to that standard of presentation as it is!

I just don\'t have the level of creativity or the confidence required to start splashing on colours without a reference and I\'m full of admiration for those who can - successfully.

The great value of CMON for me is to see other versions of figures and to take inspiration from them both in quality of work and in the colour schemes used.

One of the first Confrontation figures I saw was Jen Halley\'s \"Azael\", I have since bought the figure (and have so far stripped it twice because I cannot get near to either her, or Rackham\'s quality of finish).

Should I now sit with colour wheel in hand trying to find my own take on this model that doesn\'t conflict with either of the above examples - or with the many other fine examples already posted on CMON (most of which I have down loaded for further inspiration)?

I have, sitting on a shelf staring at me, two Amazons resplendent in glorious naked metal - my problem - no references for inspiration!

???

 

[laurence]

Begging, Borrowing & Stealing

Wowses, I really need to put on my thinking cap to articulate a decent response to this interesting thread

Take T-Bone Walker for example, this guy was the origionator/pioneer of electrified Texas style Blues guitar in the late 1940\'s/50\'s, and all the younger less experienced Texan guitarists wanted to play and sound like their hero T-Bone.

Clarence Gatemouth, Johnny \'Guitar\' Watson, Johnny Copeland, Albert Collins, Albert King & Stevie Ray Vaughan (to name but a few) all proceeded T-Bone and all started out by imitating him and copying some of his best riffs.

Eventually they all found their own unique sound which again was passed on to the next generation of blues guitarists. Just more links in the chain every now and then crystalising.

OK perhaps this is irrelevant?

One of the nicest things you can do for your heroes is to elaborate on their ideas while crediting them for the intial inspiration.

Share the wealth is what I say

The shape and pose of some miniatures lends itself to a similar interpretation by many painters.

My brain is draining here and it has nothing to do with the long neck of beer I just drank or the red wine I\'m presently sipping on, I swear

I may be wrong but as far as I can tell the incredible (Aussie) mini painter Victoria Lamb was the first mini-painter to apply object source lighting to a heroic scale mini.

Did she try to patent this idea???

No, she credited it to the brilliance of Rembrant and shared this technique with the entire CMON community

\'Life is art\' amoungst other things...

 

[Infidel Castro]

Looking in his medicine cabinet...

Where the hell have my colourful pills gone?! Why, Finn...when I get you I\'m going to stuff you into a drainpipe!

lol

My thoughts are that plagiarism can and does occur, but in an unregulated area such as converting and painting and making dioramas, etc., there can be no punishment other than the \'excommunication\' of the plagiarist, i.e. the singling out and \'making an example\' of the filthy scum who do this! :flame:

But then how can we be judge and jury on an issue that has no clear parameters?

Simply, those who live by the sword die by the sword. They\'ll get their come-uppance at another time, and if they persistently plagiarise, alienation will just happen naturally.

That\'s MY seven bob and 3 shilling ha\'penny worth!

 

[finn17]

Even if you could, what\'s the point?

It occurs to me that even if you could copyright an artistic theme. It would serve no useful purpose.

Even if you had cast-iron, legally admissable evidence that someone had nicked your idea, you would still have to take them to court and prove that your business/reputation had suffered.

In the world of minipainting this is an unlikely occurrence. Who, other than the \'big guns\' like GW can afford to get legal?

If it\'s just a private matter or if you really want a low-level form of copyrighting. Write down your idea, take a photograph etc and post it to yourself using registered/recorded delivery. When it arrives back, don\'t open it just file it. This gives you a (low-level) time capsule that records the date and nature of your idea etc.

I have never tested this legally, but I used to work in a band and we tried to do this with the songs we wrote. Thus if following our unsuccessful submissions to record companies etc, some other big name artist suddenly recorded one of \'our\' songs we had more than just our word to go to court with.

As I said, court is unlikely given the nature of our game, but using such a device would certanly give you the moral highground in any potential dispute.:flip:

 

[Infidel Castro]

Ah! I understand now!

Finn said...

I have never tested this legally, but I used to work in a band and we tried to do this with the songs we wrote. Thus if following our unsuccessful submissions to record companies etc, some other big name artist suddenly recorded one of \'our\' songs we had more than just our word to go to court with.

I was wondering where the Spice Girls might have got their catchy lyrics lol

 

[finn17]

If only!!

Originally posted by reverend
I was wondering where the Spice Girls might have got their catchy lyrics lol

I wish! With the benefit of maturity and hindsight. Not to mention that my major musical influences at the time were Yes and Frank Zappa, I suspect that even the Spicey Girls would have gagged at my lyricslollol:flip:

 

[wightzombie]

copyrights on art can usually be filed with the government for about 20$ a pop.

this basically makes it so the government has on file your work and if it comes down to court you can rip and ream if there work is within,,,, what is it 15% of yours? i know for instance awesome entertainment made a captain america type character for thier own universe and marvelk took them to court. the result was while awesome entertainment didnt wholly rip marvels captain america, they had to redisign their character a little more to firmly establish a difference in certain areas.


now for your main question:

Question - Is there a way to \"patent\" or otherwise register an idea for a paintjob or a conversion? Or because this is art, SHOULD there be?

NO. only asome of it is your art and the rest is already copyrighted by reaper or GW or whoever. BUT heres a idea i learned from others who do it.

if you sit down, and sculpt a conversion piece, and then cast a original conversion piece and sell it, its yours. BUT you better make sure your conversion piece bears no resemblance to a space marine arm or leg etc, because then its not your idea.

i saw this with high end gundam models where 2ndary companies sell huge weapons and other things to go with your gundam kits. ive even seen some of them blatantly sell copys of gundam weapons, but i dont know if there so small bandai doesnt care or what.

copyrighting a paint job on a mini? sure, if you made the mini. otherwise no because you cant claim a copyright based off of someone elses underlying work.

so really your answer is hell no all the way.

should you be able to? hell no all the way. if you could the art world would slam to a grinding halt with royalties and fees based off of rediculous ideas.

the whole idea of one upping someone and art is evolution. art is derived from everything we see and hear and dream. so trying to put some BS patent on something you subconsioucly created from a steady stream of everything that is life is pretty sad. thats why we dont do it. and wanting to do it comes from the lack of progress or talent.

if you dont want to be ripped of, do something \"original\" aka since almost no originalty exists take something like as simple as a \"knight\" and do it your own way. sit down with no reference and concoct something. i would hardly call new techniques on a mini original in painting since its been done in the traditional painting sense a million times over.

 

[Nomis]

Original thought

Originally posted by wightzombie
do something \"original\" aka since almost no originalty exists take something like as simple as a \"knight\" and do it your own way. sit down with no reference and concoct something. i would hardly call new techniques on a mini original in painting since its been done in the traditional painting sense a million times over.

What he said!!

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by wightzombiei know for instance awesome entertainment made a captain america type character for thier own universe and marvelk took them to court.

copyrighting a paint job on a mini? sure, if you made the mini. otherwise no because you cant claim a copyright based off of someone elses underlying work.

First, a better example might be when DC sued Marvel over the Captain Marvel character saying he was an infringement on Superman. (big strapping dark haired flying guy in a cape and tights)
Suit lasted years until Marvel finally agreed to stpp publishing Captain Marvel comics.

For the second point you aren\'t totally correct. The manufacturer does have a copyright on the figure. You cannot legally make duplicates.
You can paint the mini and you have a copyright on the finished piece. It\'s called a \"derivitive work\" because it derived from some other, possibly copyrighted, work. The painter\'s copyright does not mean no one can copy the mold, just the paint job. Derivitive works are only protected to the extent of originality added - i.e. the paint.

Then of course there\'s the word \"originality.\" Brown boots are not original.
Then there are all sorts of exceptions.
Then don\'t forget remedy. If someone copies your object and sells the copy, you can sue for the money you should have gotten. In the case of minis, that\'s such a small amount of money it isn\'t worth it.

Now if someone else makes a tie dye high elf army and sells it for a couple thousand dollars, I may consider legal action:innocent:

 

[-Percival-]

Actually the courts are pretty tough on trying to copywrite colors...Since they recognize that there is a limited amount of colors and combinations.

http://www.colormatters.com/color_trademark.html