Posting Figures you have not painted yourself?

Sukigod

Member
Why should people be able to post someone else's work under their own name, and get VOTES for it? What's the real point of this site then? I thought it was to post your OWN work. Getting voted on and your own personal ranking, can be big motivators to try and get better and really see where you are at in the community. But to receive high rankings for your profile for stuff you haven't even done is just plain ridiculous.
I don't care if they credit whoever, he still didn't paint it, and the 9+ ratings he will have attached to his profile for stuff he didn't do is what grates me most....

This is how I feel. He hasn't earned the score for his name. Maybe a feature that turns off scoring for those who haven't painted the fig they're selling? A separate listing type so people can use this to host pics to only sell?

It's one thing to be scored against a mini once but then to compete against the same mini by a different person? Yeah, unfair in my book (and not like I'd be able to compare to those, it is the principal of the thing.)
 

funnymouth

Active member
Yeah, I think posting it on a cmon account is a bit of a stretch. Selling it on eBay, sure, but posting a collection of minis from top ranked artists while people are trying to climb the rank ladder is a little unfair. Then again, meh, the rank ladder is kinda meaningless because there are few restrictions on posting multiple pics of the same high scoring mini, and loading your rating.

My real "beef" with his posts has absolutely nothing to do with him selling his property, for any reason, and everything to to with his violation of copyright law. He may own the miniatures, but he does not own the rights to pictures of those miniatures taken by the original artists. He should take pictures of the figures himself. in addition to violating the copyright of the original photographer ( unless he has express permission from all of the original artists), he may be misrepresenting a collectors item whose pristine condition is integral to it's value. Current pictures are a must
 
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PegaZus

Stealth Freak
There is a law called Droit de Suite.... it's a right (artists' resell rights) given to contemporary artists that allows them a percentage of the money from future sales, in much the same way as royalties work for musicians.
Wow. I had to look that up as I'd never heard of it before. And I just bristle at the whole concept. (yeah, yeah, derailing the thread a tad). I could see getting a percentage of any reprints of the original art work, but to follow that original piece around like an anchor, wow. I really would think it would hamper the sales of emerging artists' work, depressing the industry and making things worse for the "starving artist".

This is how I feel. He hasn't earned the score for his name. Maybe a feature that turns off scoring for those who haven't painted the fig they're selling? A separate listing type so people can use this to host pics to only sell?

It's one thing to be scored against a mini once but then to compete against the same mini by a different person? Yeah, unfair in my book (and not like I'd be able to compare to those, it is the principal of the thing.)
Yeah, there really isn't a good mechanism for sorting out the "for sale" pics, is there? Now, post-auction, it would be easy to just delete the image from their gallery manually, which would set everything back to the "correct" score for that artist. But what about the artists who do sell? They painted the mini, they should get the score. So there goes my thoughts about an automatic deletion of auctioned minis!
 
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Elly3438

Member
Then again, meh, the rank ladder is kinda meeningless because there are few restrictions on posting multiple pics of the same highscoring mini, and loading your rating.

This really annoys me as well. Posting "different shots" of the same mini like 5 times to get 5 9+ ratings to overload your score isn't cool. There's plenty of space these days you can post something and have the "detail shots" or close ups integrated in the pic.

That's a good point about the photos. Who knows what condition they are in right at this moment, so it could be false misrepresentation of the mini. Post some up to date pics, credit the painter, and resell is fine in my book, but using the artist's original photos (unless with permission).... not cool~
 

IdofEntity

New member
My real "beef" with his posts has absolutely nothing to do with him selling his property, for any reason, and everything to to with his violation of copyright law. He may own the miniatures, but he does not own the rights to pictures of those miniatures taken by the original artists. He should take pictures of the figures himself. in addition to violating the copyright of the original photographer ( unless he has express permission from all of the original artists), he may be misrepresenting a collectors item whose pristine condition is integral to it's value. Current pictures are a must

Wow, great point. Everyone might want to peruse this FAQ about photography laws:
http://www.photolaw.net/faq.html

The image itself has copyright protection and would indeed need the express permission of the copyright holder (the dude who snapped the pic) to be used for any purposes.

At the same time, if you read here it states that using a picture of a copyrighted image (the model itself) for the purpose of sale is considered fair use:
http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/documents/ip_photography.htm

I'm not entirely sure, and will keep reading, but I think an original picture would need to be used in this case. I'm somewhat certain (not completely) it is not CMON's business to pursue any legal ramifications as that is up to the copyright holder.

Of course, uploading images on the web for distribution is such a tricky business since all of us that have viewed the image have technically copied it.

EDIT: Images for the purpose of Critiquing and Reviewing are considered fair use, so now I'm really not sure what to think.

EDIT 2: As for "current pictures are a must" - Only if the purchaser demands it is so. If the object purchased was not accurately represented by it's advertisement the purchaser could seek recompense legally under false advertisement. They're already covered. A purchaser can seek a "request for further information" without engaging in a sale, and it really is the purchaser's duty to do so if they worry the picture used isn't recent enough.
 
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noneedforaname

New member
To me there are two components to this.

1) the posting of someone elses work, in my opinion the original artist should be credited and they should not receive a rating, only the original artist deserves this. Not dissimilar to me owning a michaelangelo and then trying to be lauded as a great artist.

2) what appears to be an attempt to create a traders Market a la trading stock. A cynical person would post pictures of other artists works, accept a sale at an inflated price via PR hype, then offer to buy said work from the artist earning themselves a substantial margin. Once your rep is such that your known for buying miniatures at a good rate you are able to dictate both Market price due to supply and costs due to a monopoly position. From what I have seen (thus expressing personal opinion not based on full facts) this is what the subjects intention feels like. If this is the case then it is objectionable to the extreme, in the same way that supermarkets, employment agencies and stock traders manipulate markets.

Like i have said this is my own misguided opinion based on hearsay, I dearly hope it is untrue but the cynic in me cannot help fear the worst. This would be the death of my belief in what I feel is one of the few decent commercial communities left.
 

supervike

Super Moderator
So... just hard cheese then?

Einion

Not familar with that saying Einion. Is that similar to 'sour grapes'?


As far as the original topic. The guy got the hint, pulled his pics, and then put them back up, with proper artist credit.

I assuming he has proper clearance to use the photos, but until I hear a complaint from one of the artist, I don't think I will bring that up.

Sounds like he's selling off his collection to help fund a child. More power to him! I hope he makes what he wants, and some other collectors get to enjoy these amazing works of art.
 

IdofEntity

New member
As far as the original topic. The guy got the hint, pulled his pics, and then put them back up, with proper artist credit.

Sounds like he's selling off his collection to help fund a child. More power to him! I hope he makes what he wants, and some other collectors get to enjoy these amazing works of art.

Which is great! Now it's just theoretical business & IP law I'm knocking around in my head.
 

Wren

Member
CMON is different things to different people, and how it is used has changed over time. It started as a simple hot or not for miniature figurines. Over time, people started selling more painted figures on Ebay, and it became convenient to both buyers and sellers to link gallery images on CMON to active auctions on Ebay. That is of benefit to CMON, too, which earns money to keep the servers running by linking and featuring the auctions. Auction sellers have many times said they get far more views and bids on auctions when those auctions are linked to CMON gallery pages. I know at least a few auction sellers who detest CMON's ranking method and would be happy to avoid posting on the site if it didn't affect their sales.

A lot of people find the auction aspect of CMON very significant. For some, it's the only reason they use CMON. Others find it virtually irrelevant, a distraction from viewing figures and/or posting their own for feedback. I get the impression that some of the people upset about the situation fall into the latter group. The problem is there is just one way to post something on CMON, and just one type of gallery. It's happened on several occasions in the past that the owner of a painted miniature decides to sell it, and wanting to attract as many possible buyers wants to feature that sale on CMON. Usually the person credits the original painter either out of respect, or for simple salesmanship, since the painter is part of the sales appeal of a finely painted miniature. But unless the original painter is willing to feature the auction in their gallery, the seller has no choice but to post it in their own. That page is going to work the way every other page does and be up for votes. A lot of sellers take the pages down after the auction to minimize the effect on overall CMON ratings, but I don't think there are CMON rules requiring it, or even a moral obligation to do so.

Personally I consider it far less objectionable than the people who try to pad up their ratings or knock down someone else's with heavy trolling for votes on other forums or what-have-you. I've seen minis with hundreds more votes than others submited the same few days ago and other hints of similar things going on. A seller acknowledging the original painter is doing what they can to respect that painter and work within CMON as it functions. If someone searches the ratings and starts going through the gallery of that painter they'll soon realize that rating doesn't really apply to the gallery owner. If someone is concerned that they're ranked #597 instead of #572 because a few people were selling off collections of great minis, well that doesn't seem like such a big thing in the overall scheme of things to me.

As for a call for CMON to change and have display only galleries and whatnot, I suspect it's unlikely to happen. It's a relatively rare situation (which also applies to the Golden Toadstool account and probably a few others that have nothing to do with selling), and there's no workable way to apply it to all the pictures already posted. Stuff that can't be applied to the back catalogue rarely if ever is added. Crowd policing works pretty well, as keen eyes usually catch people who don't give credit for photos (as has happened here.) I suspect this particular person wasn't trying to claim credit for himself, but simply isn't familiar with the culture of the site and doesn't have great English. I further suspect he has very little familiarity with Ebay and miniature sales in general, since starting with whopper prices rarely seems to work, and crediting the skilled painters of his collection could only help his sales potential.
 
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