Price increase! Aarrrgh!!!

[Chrispy]

Well, looks like GW did it again.. raising boxed set prices about five dollars. One question: WHY?!?!?! It\'s not like they\'re hard up for money... Last time I looked their stock was around 100 English pounds. It\'s not just this one, it\'s the fact that they\'ve done it before and seems will continue doing it.

And what are we getting for this increase? The same old figs as before!!! If this increase allowed them to cast minis better, I\'m totally missing where it would show.. Almost every GW mini I have has one continuos line of flash and some even have marks where the mold slipped!

I swear I\'m going to stick to Rackham and Reaper in the future.. And here I thought the English were our allies!!

 

[Alhazred]

The problem is most gamers are so addicted to GW that they will keep on buying their products whatever their price increase...

(And by the way, I, by mistake, clicked on the edit button and was taken to a screen where I could edit Chrispy\'s post...could have strange effects on the forum, don\'t you think ?)

 

[Death Jester]

Don\'t get me started!!!!!

All companies are out to make money on the products they sell, but Games Workshop are one of those companys that is run by a bunch of greedy people who couldn\'t care less about figure painting or gaming - they are ONLY interested in making as much cash as possible.

GW was started by gamers a long time ago but they were not all that skilled in marketing and ran up huge debts. They sold the company to another bunch of avid gamers who ran it a bit better, but it was sold again and is now just another greedy company intent on making money at all costs.

I used to work for them for a couple of years and I can tell you for a fact that they are the biggest rip-off around. You would not believe how much of a mark-up they are making. And it isn\'t even like their figures are all that great! Staff get a 50% discount and most managers/area managers/etc. get stuff for free during their \"meetings\" that are nothing more than week-long drinking binges at expensive hotels (now you know where your money goes, it is NOT to research and development!)

Every 5 years or so they completely change all of the rules for their games and re-release most of their figures in slightly different poses. They also have a rather unpleasent \"policy\" (in England anyway) of not allowing anyone to play with miniatures that they consider to be from their \"old ranges\" - this means that if you purchase an army from them and then they change the rules you cannot use their army at their games days, just because they say so! Games Workshop uses this to attempt to get people to buy everything all over again - I don\'t know anybody stupid or gullible enough to do that!

Take Blood Bowl for example - every time they re-release it the figures cost even more than they did the last time! Why? They do not make new figures, they just use the same ones they used the last time! The answer is they do it because they know they can get away with it and they are a VERY GREEDY company! They have NO interest in providing good value for money or customer care - they just want to make more money!

And then there is their paint range.... The current range of colours have almost no pigmentation and dry far too quickly to be blended properly! Fantasy miniatures DO NOT line up in base-to-base contact as prescribed (because they are too big for their bases) and many of their figures actually depict poses that are against the rules (e.g., holding weapons they are not really allowed, etc.) The figures (in general) are very poorly cast when compared with other companies and require a lot of work to get them ready for painting. Clear evidence that they could not care less and have poor quality control. Their stuff is NOT better than anyone else\'s figures - there is absolutely NO justification for the prices they charge!

After I left GW, I got some mates to ask an area manager (who did not know me or them) why a small dwarf hero was so expensive when a blister pack of 4 mummies (which was clearly better sculpted and weighed a lot more!) cost less. Despite the fact that the area manager was clearly in his 40s and my mates are both over 30, he began to act like a child, waving his arms around and said: \"It\'s because the dwarf is a hero and could chop the mummies up into little undead sausages, hi-ya, hi-ya, hi-ya!\" My mates remained calm and pointed out that the \"dwarf\" was actually a little bit of metal that could not move, never mind \"chop something up\". The area manager\'s attitude changed completely in about 1 second, and he glared at them and said that they could \"drop their attitude or get out\". He walked away and refused to talk to them again! What kind of customer service is that?

I do have some GW figures and still paint what I have, some of their figures are VERY good, but apart from that I have nothing to do with them - they are simply NOT good value for money. There are so many more really good figures out there from other companies that are not only better but also more reasonable priced. It is only a matter of time before GW realises it\'s doing itself more harm than good! Is it any wonder that the leading sculpters and painters (like Mike McVey) have quit GW and now work for other companies?

To Games Workshop managers I say: Get your act together, start spending more on quality control, reduce your blatantly arrogant prices or burn in hell!

 

[No Such Agency]

Death Jester, while your rant was entertaining and cathartic to read, your opinion is not shared by the scores of people out there who regularly play GW games. Alas, this puts them in a perfect position to be fleeced GW can raise prices/switch rules etc. and these people will still buy from them, because to do otherwise would mean abandoning or radically adjusting their gaming hobby.

The expensive dwarf/cheap mummy dichotomy is as far as I can tell, a measure to make sure that equal point value armies cost about the same to field. If one 30 pt. dwarf is 1/3 as expensive than three 10 point zombies, who\'s going to field the zombies? This royally sucks for painters who don\'t game, but I find that the prefect remedy is to not buy GW minis! If you want to buy from a company which is a little more \"homegrown\", there\'s no shortage of them out there - and they can produce some truly unique figures, because they\'re not tied into an over-arching game \"system\".

 

[Flashman14]

I\'m not sure I\'ve ever heard a good thing about GW\'s business practices

Their rapid expansion is being fueled by something so the message GW is recieving is \"no prob on the higher prices; we\'ll buy what ever you got\" In other words, as long as more folks keep paying than not, they will continue to try to maximize profits which by their very existence they are entitled to do.
I know it\'s harder on the less affluent (like me) but as it doesn\'t seem to affect their revenues then they have no social obligation to bring us cheap miniatures.
I am currently priced out of new GW stuff so I scrape around Ebay, the HMGS Cons, and Bring & Buys to get what I need (course I dont compete in anything either so some of the old stuff is fair game if the price is right).

But, frankly, I\'m glad they freshen up things every few years. If GW only carried the minis they had 8 years ago I would have long bought the ones I need and I would be hard pressed to ever set foot in there again. Modern retail THRIVES on change and bringing new stuff to market - that\'s what it\'s all about.

 

[Jericho]

Originally posted by Flashman14
Modern retail THRIVES on change and bringing new stuff to market - that\'s what it\'s all about.

This is exactly what I\'ve been talking about for a long time when people say how evil it is to release updated things every couple years. Do you flame Gap and other clothing stores for coming out with new lines every season? They obviously are trying to get you to buy the new stuff to replace the old, and many people do without thinking.

It\'s naive to think a big business like GW could survive if they didn\'t update their product range. New products = new hype = new customers. If they didn\'t do this kind of thing they wouldn\'t survive.

It\'s that simple.

 

[Wolfsbane21]

The thing is that the price you pay now in america was the price we were paying all along here in Europe.

 

[Lurch]

Just a few questions for the gamers out there.

I\\\'m not into the mini gaming.
I buy a mini based on if I like the way it looks and if I\\\'d like to paint it.

That being said, I have noticed MANY games out there with far superior looking minis that hobby stores don\\\'t seem to embrace. My own hometown store carries Warhammer WH4K, Mordheim, Bloodbowl and Mageknight, all of which cover an entire wall. They also carry a small amount of Reaper on a little 5 ft section it shares with Cell 1999. (There is also a huge amount of Chainmail figures in the 50% off bin.) They have not heard of Confrontation, or Dark Ages, nor do they seem interested in carrying it. They look at me as if I\\\'m from another planet when I mention these new games.
They do have their own tournaments for WH and WH4K, and Mordheim.

Now then:

A) If these newer games (DArk Ages, 1999, etc.) have higher quality minis and is cheaper to play, why doesn\'t the main group of gamers go for it?

B) If gamers are upset with the quality and price of GW, why do they continue buying it?

C) Why do these newer games have such a hard time taking off? Why do stores have such a hard time carrying the cheaper inventory?

 

[Chrispy]

I think one main reason for not selling the older/cheaper minis is the sales commison. Obviously if you sell 20 $5 minnis you\'d get more money than 20 $2 ones.. I know my reasons for not going with Dark Age is because the minis do not truly look like brom\'s paintings (And the Evil One... but that\'s a whole nother story...) I know most mini stores around here carry almost the complete Reaper line, but that\'s just because one of the HQ\'s is in Texas.

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Lurch your questions are very good

So let me attempt to answer this.

A) If these newer games (DArk Ages, 1999, etc.) have higher quality minis and is cheaper to play, why doesn\'t the main group of gamers go for it?

Gamers have the hardest time understanding their true power in their hobby. Whether this is for established games or new ones it is the same kettle of fish. Lets just say I play Warhammer 40K, which I do... I go into a store and I can easily find oponents for this game... why? It has been very well promoted and it almost sells itself. In the RPG arena DnD is the same way.

Now if I am a new game company, or an established one with a strugling game well then I will have trouble selling my wares. The reasons are slightly different. For the older company, FASA now FP for Tech for instance, the game is dying but many of its most ardent players are not willing to take time and recruit people into their games, since it is work. For newer lines you have sort of the same problem. First off you have to make a name for yourself and prove that you will survive in the market place, and then maybe they will give you the time of day.

Either way it involves a lot of work on the part of the store which is taking a huge risk bringing this untried inventory in, and players who adopt the new system. they will have to recruit people. Though they can do this... it is always an uphil battle. After all, why should I buy into this new system, when there are clearly oponents for this other game that I can find oponents everywhere.


B) If gamers are upset with the quality and price of GW, why do they continue buying it?

They don\'t, but the market penetration for GW is so good that whenever I do a demo of CAV or Heavy Gear I have kids asking, is this Warhammer? They are not counting on the old players, some of whom are priced out of the market, but on new young players, in the age group of 12-24, who have disposable income to the tune of over a billion USD a year to burn... (Front Line Special PBS, The Marketing of Cool). So essentially it comes to one player stops, due to being priced out, while another two to three pick it up. Also if they are young enough, we will get them through two production cycles. After all most people stop gaming when they get a job and other obligations, such as family.

Also they know that there is a significant group of players that will complaint, but will continue to buy regardless.


C) Why do these newer games have such a hard time taking off? Why do stores have such a hard time carrying the cheaper inventory?

New games like new businesses always have a hard time penetrating a market, as to the stores, well it is cheaper... but if it does not move then they are stuck with it. With VOR, Chainmail and other recent failures I cannot blame them for not wanting this stock any more. Stock what you know will move... and unless you as a store owner are willing to push one of these new lines until it grows roots in the local area, don\'t. I know I would not either in their place.

Now you want your store to carry any of these new games? Here is what you do... have them bring in a Trial Run, and I mean a trial run. It is very small indeed. Now what you also have to commit yourself is to do demos for this new game on a regular basis and run leagues... to justify the store bringing this new stuff. After it becomes self suporting you cannot pull back either, since you have the GW marketing monster on top of you, always alluring players away, because it is easier to find oponents for their line. See why many players do not do this? It means work, lots of it.

Now GW has an insane markup, but the commision to the shops is actually lower than other lines, but the owners make it up with volume sold. I mean it does sell itself at this point, aka it is self sustaining. Which almost none of the other lines are. I mean Tech was, oh five years ago, but no effort was made to recruit and sustain the market, or renew it for that matter. Now they are struggling to put it nicely.

Why is it that companies do not do the necessary marketing?

It costs a lot of money, and companies do have a hard time justifying this cost.

I hope this explains to you why they can price some out of the market, and keep thriving. Oh and anger at them is not going to help in any way. the only way that GW will get the message is when their sales dramatically go down. and if the economy takes the dive it is expected, well this hike might prove to be just real bad timing on their part.

As to the renewal and all that, yes they keep themselves fresh, but not because they want to have the old hands replace stuff necessarily. They are always going after that elusive target, called Cool... and they are pretty good at it.

Nadin

 

[Aschul]

Greed or inflation?

I\'m certainly not arguing that Gw products cost a lot. However, are these price increases a matter of greed or inflation? Don\'t prices on everything go up over the years? Is it really just GW? ??? Maybe I am just a GW fanboy at heart (God I hope not!), but it seems like all miniatures are expensive, not just GW\'s.

They\'re also running out of new miniatures to make, sort of. Now that they\'ve reached the point where almost all the \"core\" troops are plastic, they can\'t really depend on \"hot new releases\" to bring in the sales (unless they make totally new armies). The plastics require a large initial investment, so once they\'ve made them they aren\'t going to make new versions of them for a long time. Some of the current plastics are, what, 10 years old, and they\'re still using them. So since they can\'t make new models, all they can do is raise prices on the current ones.

I know, I know it still sucks but I can see the reasoning behind it, and it\'s inevitable anyway isn\'t it?

 

[Chrispy]

they can\'t really depend on \"hot new releases\" to bring in the sales (unless they make totally new armies).

And Necrons and Tau aren\'t new? They duped me with the Tau, but after seeing how sucky they really were (read: D@mned hard to paint) , I\'m probably going to sell everything I got (read: everything that\'s not put together or limited edition). I stayed away from the Necrons, even though I wanted to read the Codex just for the background (Necrons on Mars? WHAT?!?) But it looks like Daemonhunter might get me again.. And yes, prices do fluctuate over time, but the UK\'s economy is not directly related to ours.. We\'re in a slump right now, but I\'m not sure about them.. course they\'re not at war with the rest of the world... but I digress.. Anyways, like I said, I just wish I could see something to make up for it like cleaner mold lines or more dynamic poses.. Luckily, they\'ve been swaying towards the latter in recent times, so we can only hope for the best.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Quite right Aschul. Most of the big companies models seem to be quite expensive these days. However, I think that many try and emulate GW\'s prices rather than having to actually charge those prices! If GW can charge \'X\' amount then why not everyone else? It\'s all a bit of bandwagon jumping.

Anyone seen the new Foundry orc boxed sets? They\'re f*****g extortionately priced for what you actually get! I\'d say only one of the four sets is anywhere near worth the money. And it\'s all part of the fantasy bandwagon. Fantasy is a big seller and high prices can be expected these days. Maybe Brian Ansell wants Foundry to be GW mark II???

I agree the quality of GW models (and Foundry in my opinion!) are not always what they could be either. Maybe the moulding process could be better. I\'m currently painting a Space Marine captain for a guy in the States, and the casting is quite poor in places! Mostly little pock marks from air bubbles. I reckon that some stages of production are rushed just to get the models out onto the market! I\'ve noticed this quite a bit with Foundry over the past year or more. The quality of some of their sculpting is really quite poor at times. Their most recent war orcs look half finished. They have rough surfaces which clearly show putty marks instead of being nice and smooth. I guess all oversights in the rush to get stuff out. I can see how it\'s annoying to then be asked (well, told) to pay more for lower quality models.

As for dynamic poses Chrispy, I\'m not a big fan of that kind of thing. I wish companies would go back to a more natural style of posing. Some dynamic, over the top pose might look good on a particular character, but when every figure begins to look like a posing dancer, things just look stupid. Why can\'t space marines or necrons keep their damn legs together? One day GW will have to increase the size of all their bases as most figures hardly fit onto them these days. Can\'t help Warhammer players trying to keep their figures in ranks and files if every figure is striking a heroic pose with legs splayed and arms stretching in every direction! And whilst I\'m mid rant. What is it with all the oversized ridiculous weapons that sculptors design these days? That\'s the main reason I haven\'t bought the CMON figures. The weapons are too ridiculous. Sorry. It seems to me that fantasy and sci-fi models have become a total parody of themselves to a certain extent. An avenue of design which I\'d say has been forged by GW.

That\'s my two penneth anyway.

:bouncy:

 

[Death Jester]

I can\'t believe what I am hearing - GW re-release the exact same stuff to keep the hobby interesting and to ensure that we keep buying stuff? Re-releasing the same stuff is not more interesting, IT\'S JUST THE SAME!!!!

Someone actually compared GW to GAP - the two companies are not even remotely similar! GAP sells clothes, GW sells toys! Clothes styles change every few months, every time I go to buy clothes I do not look to build up a \"collection\" of jeans - I do not have an \"army\" of shirts! Oh, and buy the way, GAP produce their wares in child slave camps in third world and developing countries, so they are not exactly top of my list either....

It is the same with the electrical industry - when did anyone ever buy a \"squad\" of televisions? Or a \"platoon\" of refrigerators? Even trying to compare companies that sell different products is folly from the start.

First of all, GW can count on generating sales from all of the new people who join the consumer market - every day thousands of people turn 18 and need something to spend their cash on. Surely good value for money encourages people in, bad value for money is arrogant and just pushes people away! (Bad value for money led to this very forum....) It is the same with any toy/hobby. Every day people loose interest and more people gain interest. Also, re-releasing the exact same figures does not keep the hobby interesting, it just annoys people who are trying to build a collection and have to keep starting again.

GW have 2 core games, 40k and Warhammer - the only new stuff they can release is in the form of \"splinter\" games like Mordhiem, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Gorka Morka, Space Hulk, Inquisitor, etc. - 40k and Warhammer will never change drastically, so there is no point in pretending that it will.

As far as charging huge amounts because the figures are worth lots of \"points\", that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! The last time I bought a GW figure, when I opened the box there were no \"points\" in the box, no \"points\" fell out onto my desk, I didn\'t paint any \"points\" - there were just 5 small, metal figures and 5 plastic slotta bases - nothing else. The armies are kept in balance because the rules say you are only allowed x% vehicles, x% heroes, and a minimum x% troops. The argument about heroes being expensive to prevent people fielding too many of them has no basis. IT\'S JUST A SMALL PIECE OF METAL THAT CANNOT MOVE, PEOPLE!!!

Lets take a working example - a plastic space marine \"Rhino\" vehicle costs about £12. It was first released in the late 1980s, has about a dozen or so pieces, no real detail to speak of, no figures, and the bottom of it is hollow! Compare that to a similar-sized vehicle, from the early 1980s, say the Tamiya \"Hanomag\" Sdkfz. 251/1 - here we have an accurate scale model with over 100 parts, incredible detail inside and out, working wheels, rubber tracks, movable gun turret, detailed driver\'s seat and instrument panel, a ton of \"extra bits\" and 5 figures! And how much does it cost? £9.99 - a far superior kit and cheaper than GW.

At the minute, Tamiya are one of the biggest model making companies in the world - they do not really do sci-fi, mostly historical and R/C. Tamiya is run by a dedicated model enthusiast, GW is run by greedy people who could not care less. All of the arguments put forward about GW \"needing to rip people off\" to stay afloat is utter rubbish - I do not mean to rant, but if you believe that then good luck, you will need it! The markets now are bigger than ever, reaching more people than ever. Revenues have never been higher - if GW are experiencing trouble it\'s because people are finally realising that they want value for money and not to be ripped off and sales are slipping accordingly.

You may have noticed that I rant on and on about prices - it is one of the few things that really gets me going!! Every year the raw materials used to make just about everything get cheaper and cheaper while the potential of the customer base gets bigger and bigger. With the exception of inflation (which, at the minute, is less that 2%) THERE IS NO NEED TO RAISE PRICES - IT\'S JUST PURE GREED!!!

Right, I\'ve had my little rant, now I\'m back down to earth. Just to change the topic completely, about 10-12 years ago I saw some metal figures of the cast from Aliens, available in two separate boxed sets. One set had Ripley, Newt and some of the marines, the other box had Gorman and the rest - does anyone know where I can get them? They are probably all second hand, I don\'t mind stripping them down and starting again. Post your replies to the usual place!

Death Jester

 

[Flashman14]

er . . . I like the new Necrons much better than the old ones. Oh and the new Tomb Kings look pretty cool too. I dont personally care for Chaos but the new ones look infinitely better than the early ones . . . And Mordheim is awesome as well . . so is Lord of the Rings. Lotsa new stuff at GW . . . :bouncy:

 

[Sturmhalo]

I guess GW have always redesigned figures. Just look back over the development of space marines. Their first incarnation in 1985 was redesigned in 87/88. Then the MK7 (?) armour was designed around 1990. But in those days the different designs were all made easily available to the buyer and were not intended as a replacement for any previos design. Marines from all three periods could be seen being used in armies and displays. Now that Mammon rules the gaming industry, GW discontinues models when they come up with their latest whiz bang wonder design. If they\'re lucky, old models are relegated to the archives but are never fully accepted again

I have thought for many years that GW do charge according to the value of a particular model in the game (which ever it may be). Characters and flash models have always acrued a slightly higher price due to the extra detail or size. No problem with that to certain extent. But I noticed in the 90\'s that some figures were way overpriced for what they were. And it\'s still the case today. Take Tau pathfinders. Three in a pack for £6.00. The team leader figure costs £5.00 (£6.00 if you want the plastic drone!). The team leader is no different from the regular troopers as far as complexity and size is concerned. In fact it\'s a simpler model in many respects as it\'s a one piece cast! The regular troops are two piece casts! You can\'t tell me that the value of a figure in the game does not have any bearing on its price! I don\'t mean it has anything to do with points values, but price does appear to correlate to the over all value of a particular model in the game, eg: the pathfinder team leader is a more valuable asset than his rank & file compatriot.

 

[Death Jester]

GW do some very good stuff, don\'t get me wrong - some of their stuff is amazing! It\'s just NOT worth the price.

Personally, my favourite GW product is Necromunda and Blood Bowl (Mordhiem is just Fantasy Necromunda), and my mates and I frequently play both. Some of the figures are great, but we mostly improvise using figures from other ranges.

I actually have the very old White Dwarf issue (127 or 129 I think, do not have it at hand) where the rules for \"Confrontation\" were first published. The rules are a mix of Necromunda and Inquisitor, and as such are far too complex to play squad-based games, so we just use the trading rules from that mixed with the gameplay rules for Nercomunda. We even use Necromunda/Mordhiem rules when playing 40k or Warhammer! Sure, the games last a lot longer, but are much more detailed.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Wow, someone remembers the original confrontation rules! They were brilliant. Admittadely they weren\'t finished and could be a bit unwieldly, but they made for a great game! I played Necromunda years later expecting it to be the finished article, but I thought it was utterly piss poor! The campaign rules and all the stuff for use in between games was brilliant and far better than confrontation. But the actual game was appaulling. Everyone move a bit, everyone shoot one weapon once and then fall over till next turn! Really weak. How to take a good idea and turn it into dross so that kids can understand it!!!

 

[Death Jester]

Sturmhalo, I just saw your reply, sorry for the 2 posts...

A little while ago I saw an episode of \"The Simpsons\" in which Homer and the townsfolk organise a \"Bear Patrol\" after a bear eats Homer\'s mail box. In trying to explain that the whole idea is absurd, Lisa picks up a rock and says that it is an anti-tiger rock - a magical rock that keeps tigers at bay. Homer asks for clarification on how it works, to which Lisa replies \"It doesn\'t work, it\'s just a stupid rock! But there are no tigers around here!\" Homer responds by giving Lisa $50 for the anti-tiger rock.

This is what happens every time you pay too much for a figure because of its points value - THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS \"POINTS\"!!!! They do not, never have, and never will exist - you are just buying a piece of metal or plastic at 5x the price!

 

[Death Jester]

From what I can remember about the original Confrontation rules, they never did hand-to-hand rules, just movement, shooting and trading - oh well!

Necro rules may end up with figures lying down every turn, but compare that to 40k rules where the figures are just removed completely and you will see what I mean - instead of automatically \"dying\" the figures have a chance to stand up again and fight on (albeit in game terms) - that\'s what makes the game more detailed. It also requires a lot more planning as it is far harder to \"wipe out\" squads and achieve objectives - try playing an entire 40k game using Necro rules!