Price increase! Aarrrgh!!!

[Chrispy]

Well, the main problem being that there\'s not too many stoes to begin with here that will let people play, simply because they\'re not equipped to do so.. Even then I don\'t know why some stores that get great business go up all of the sudden. Anyhoo, I discussed this in another thread..

I think the younger generation (not including me) want everything done for them now.. They want good looking mini without practicing, they want their jeans pre-faded, they want to use a calculater on their homework, and so on and so on.. I believe thi is a by-product of that era of technology now adays.

Back to the origanl problem, these kids don\'t have the money to spend on the hobby and the rules are kinda intimidating.. for the cost of a boxed set, they\'d rather get a video game that requires little effort on the player\'s side.

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

True, that is part of the problem

That said, do you know why GW has the penetration they have? Good marketing... extremely good marketing.

Also when I am told kids have no money to spend on this hobby, melarchy... why am I saying this? Why do you think GW, Pepsi, 7-Up and the GAP target these kids? (I mean the 12-24 year old kids, aka the Teens). Last time I checked, they had a BILLION dollars per year in disposable income... yes you read right, a billion. This is why companies spend insane ammounts of money finding out what is cool right at the moment and market cool to the kids. Why? They want a small chunck of this money.

They have the money and they do not have the responsibilities. I highly recommend, and have referred to it a couple times already, that people watch \"The Marketing of Cool\" a PBS Frontline Special. It will give you quite the inisght into this and why WK is launching a CMG and why those CMGs are targetted at this market. Granted if the macro economy drives this market dry, then both WK and GW will be in trouble but for reasons they cannot control.

Now that said, the new model of store includes some sort of gaming area, and the reason for it is... GW got it right, you get them to play there, it helps to sell the games.

Still this is slowly becoming why the hobby seems not to be doing as well... and yes I wish more folks just were willing to grow the hobby, whether they get beanies from companies or not is immaterial.

Nadin

 

[Flashman14]

Marketing

Well one thing I think GW does that is brilliant is to tie everything they do into the game. Through White Dwarf, through in-store demonstrations, through online support, through paintng contests, through Game Days, and through tournaments. It\'s a fundamentally terrific business model for this and nothing else like it exists.

I\'ve often hoped that the Historical world would come up with something similar but it is so fractured amongst different periods and different gaming philosophies that I doubt any one faction will dominate enough to get the youngsters to follow.

I spose if I had a billion dollars I\'d start a store called Sword and the Flame (have to bring Larry Brom, the creator, in on it). I would carry all manufacturers of Colonial materials -books, buildings, models, movies, maybe clothing- anyone who has a range of related anything. And then run demos of Sword and the Flame all day across all the periods it covers (French & Indian War up through Boxer Rebellion).
The rules are streamlined enough to cover a lot of interesting periods -all units are 20 figs each - so it\'s as simple as WFB - maybe more so. Do online sales, print a periodical, hire a friendly, knowledgeable, and sales oriented staff and market, market, market.
Location is everything though and that\'s what will make it a losing proposition (hence the Billion dollars - to cover the losses) It\'s just too narrow an interest to make me rich (or comfortable) and to feed, clothe and house a staff that would be as enthusiastic as I would be.

Yet GW comes closest to allowing folks to make a living at playing games. I can\'t think of a higher career ideal then that (for me anyways).

But let me ask this: Would you feel better if they spread out the cost of their \"hero \" models to their \"troop\" models. So that the disparity in price from figure to figure would be equal?

For example, roughly a unit box of 12 figs costs 25 bucks and a hero costs 8 bucks. (total $33) In this example what if the box set cost $30.50 and the Hero was $2.50? (still $33). It doesn\'t seem so bad this way though it\'s the same price.

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

First of all who are WK and what is a CMG or CMG\'s?

Nadin is right about the 12-24 age groups disposable income though - check out the a Games Workshop store on a busy day and you will see 90% + are 12 to 18 years old (roughly).

I\'m afraid GW are like any other company, there is nothing \"greedy\" about them in comparison with other public limited companies..... These companies are built and designed to produce dividends for shareholders, not to \"be fair to all in terms of pricing\". If a pricing policy like GW\'s would maximise profits for say... Tamiya (for example) then I would be astounded if they did not implement it. I imagine that the pricing policy of Tamiya (and all other limited companies that produce models or not) uses at the moment maximises profits for them. They don\'t price models on the basis that they think it represents \"good value for money\" (you may think its good value for money and that\'s probably why you buy it) they price to maximise profits just like GW. In this respect there really isn\'t any differnce between GW, Microsoft, GAP, or any other plc you care to mention.....

Its the same with discounts such as student / unemployed / senior citizen etc.. that some companies offer. They don\'t do it to benefit people, they do it because for them it increases profit in their particular market. People will pay what they think something is worth and people buy GW products. I\'m not defending GW here, its the way of the world. Companies are here to make money be they GW, or anyone else.

As for GW paints, I am moving on to Coat D\'arms paints (the old GW supplier) and maybe Vallejo.... Coat D\'arms washes also are not shiny, the new GW washes are shiny. Why would I want something that is meant to darken recesses and shade to reflect light????? Plus the GW paint pots seal shut never to be opened again without elastic bands and brute force! I won\'t be buying another GW paint again.

GW do produce some good minatures imo and some very bad ones. I admit that I do buy GW models.... if you order from ebay, buy second hand, or go to independent suppliers (ones that have turnover below the VAT threshold in the UK) you can save significant amounts of money on GW products.

As for \"typical gamers\", I wash regularly..., and everyone I \"game\" with washes regularly too! lol

Now that I have bored you all to tears.. I\'ll leave you in peace

 

[Big Mean Elf]

Price hikes

I love GW and the world...
I think that the company is the only one that really suports the hobby of gameing on a regular or semi schedual...for most mini gamers they can get bored with a game,but with GW they always seem to have something going on a rule alteration or new event or new models...it just keeps them freash!

 

[Death Jester]

And on the eighth day God made stupid people...

I think you\'re missing the point - nobody ever said that GW were alone in the poor value-for-money stakes, or that GW didn\'t have good marketing strategy - in fact, I myself have commended them for hiring smart people who really know how to squeeze every penny from the foolish and the gullible. The point is that they do it unnecessarily - according to them, it is required for R&D, but it isn\'t really! It all goes to some really, REALLY rich people who just want to get richer!

When I was at college I had to work in retail to pay my way - I guarantee, from first-hand experience in several different stores that the precise microsecond you walk out the door, having just spent $20 on 0.40c worth of crap, all of the staff laugh their heads off! They all know the mark-up, and they all know that you are suckers!

As long as people are quite happy and content to be ripped off, then there are plenty of salesmen willing to take you to the cleaners. And instead of seeing the stupidity of this, some of you are actually defending it!!!!!! If you actually believe all of those stories about how revenue all goes into R&D, releasing new lines and keeping the economy afloat, then you should seriously seek professional medical advice. HELLO!!! IT IS ALL A BUNCH OF LIES TO MAKE YOU WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! Only a very small per cent goes to these areas, the rest goes to someone\'s bank account, and that\'s it!

I work hard for my money, and I want good value for money. It is not even all that hard to find, as long as you have the common sense to just look. Many outlets provide a quality service; they balance the books well, make an acceptable profit margin, and treat their customers well becaue they know that everyone HATES thieves and they run their business by building up a hard-earned, honest reputation. In England, some stores even publically display their mark-up on the store shelves so you can see exactly what you are paying! Unfortunately there are also a lot of other companies that are quite happy to be thieves for as long as possible - and as long as the foolish and the gullible (i.e., the suckers!)continue to hand them money, they will continue on their merry way!

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

WK and CMG

Since yuo asked...

WK= Wizkids LLC

CMG= Collectible Miniatures Games

And if any body thinks that GW is making a killing, these folks are even better at it.

That said, Death Jester that is what is called market forces, and as long as people are willing to pay for \"perceived value,\" they will continue to thrive.

GW works on the logic of per unit profits, while WK from what I can tell, works on the idea of volume. Either way they both market their wares well, and WK is even more of a rip off, at least to me... lack of perceived value that is... aka has none to me.

Now other companies believe in the \"soft sale\" which usually goes together with volume, and not per unit sales.

BTW, when did CMON become a site to discuss the way these games are marketed? Kudos folks because the last thing GW wants, as well as some other companies, are informed consumers. That said GW, at least in the states, has far less share with the independents than other product, and stores do rely on volume moved.

Either way, their business model, whether people like it or not, is extremely succesful and other companies have been trying to replicate it for years. Most who have tried have died trying, and one reason... well GW has weeded the fanatics off the Outrider staff, and they do this on a regular basis. Other game companies have some fanatics pushing the lines and bad mouthing the competition... which usually leads to lower sales.

Ok enough econ 101 for one day I guess.

nadin

 

[Death Jester]

nadinbrzezinski:

You say the last thing GW (or any company) wants is informed consumers - why do u think? Because they know they will go bust once everyone wakes up and realises they are being robbed! Personally, I can\'t wait for that day.

If, on the other hand, they offered value-for-money, that would not happen. They would also actually expand their customer base, as more people are willing to pay for good value!

 

[Death Jester]

By the way, freedom of speech being what it is, you can discuss anything you want in a forum.

And who cares if GW (or anyone) approves.... Maybe it\'s about time they had a wake-up call.

 

[Big Mean Elf]

price hikes


Dude I noticed that you made the comment that \"Your\" god made stupid people on the 8th day,if that was to me,fuck you buddy!
You don`t know anything at all about me.or my connections or what \"I\" pay for my models or anything else...so go hate GW all you want to,but don`t call me stupid,you lil whin baby!

\"IF\" you wherr just venting,and it happened to come right after my post about likeing GW,well you are allowed to have your own oppinion,and ignore the above re blast!!:flame:

But I don`t agree with you,if people are not getting GW products at a good discount like I do,then they are prolly just not hoocked up like some of us...

 

[Sturmhalo]

By \'hooked up\' do you mean you work for GW?

I used to know a guy who had a friend who worked in the GW factory over here (UK) back in 1996. I don\'t know what kind of discount staff get these days (well, the manager of my local store says he only gets 20%!), but back then the factory slaves were allowed a certain weight in models etc per month. Figures costing between £1.35 and £5.00 all worked out at roughly £0.58 I think. I got all 12 Necromunda Redemptionists for less than £8.00! The saving on games was also ridiculous. The usual £50 for a game that came in one of those skip sized boxes was reduced to £15! If only I still knew the guy.

If that\'s what they could allow their products to go for to their staff at the time and yet still get some profit, just think how much of a profit they were making on full price goods!

Also, whilst I mention the old redemptionist models. Originally when I got mine the full prices were in my opinion a bit screwy. £1.35 for a regular brother yet £2.75 for a deacon/priest/zealot! Just over twice the price for a figure that wasn\'t much more detailed or heavier than the cheaper models! If I\'d wanted the special character he\'d have cost me £5.00 even though he was no more complex or weighty than those half the price! You can\'t tell me that GW don\'t price some things according to their worth in the game world!

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Death Jester

You missed the point completely... by a wide margin.

Why do people pay for what you consider to be overpriced stuff? Quite simple, they do such because of a perceived value.

That said, I am doing this since I know how this works. Still I am not delusional and think that people \"will wake up.\" Hell I buy GW stuff because of that perceived value, aka it is fun for me to play these games. I also try to buy them in the secondary market, but am willing to buy from time to time a \"new model.\" Why? That perceived value. This is the same reason why people pay insane prices at E-Bay for some \"rare models.\" One good example of these pieces of lead are many of the Rare Mechs, such as the Marauder, and I mean the \"original.\" People believe that this piece of lead, for which I paid oh four bucks back in the day is worth 70 - 80 USD. Is it worth that much? Only if you think it does. In reality its real value, since it is not painted hence no value added to it, is oh the 20 cents it took to produce... (maybe a tad more).

Now you may go on a rant and say that they are ripping you off. Granted from your POV you are correct since you are aware of the actual value, and you are only taking into account the initial production value, and not the value added through transfers in the market place from the manufacturer, up the food chain all the way to the retailer. That is why you quoted the often told forty cents that it costs a company to produce anything. Now how much did it cost them to produce this from the green to the final third stage mini that you get? How much value is added as this piece of lead is packaged, catalogued, put in storage, shipped to a distributor and finally arriving to the retailer? depending on the company and the actual product (that is why groceries are hard to do as a business), the value added will range from oh 50%, food prodcuts that you and I need, to oh over 1200% in some luxury items. Hobby items range in the 600- 800%, and GW is higher, but again... this is the real value, with value added through the market. As long as people fully believe that they cannot live without (insert miniature here) and see a perceived value in a miniature, even though it will be higher than the intrinsic value... I can seat here and post and you can post here and rant, or argue, but the company will continue to make a living out of this. Whether they are gouging the customer or being very canny businessmen really depends on your point of view... for me, I buy what I like,,, aka it has value to me, perceived value. If a product does not have that perceived value then of course I will not touch it, or in a very specific case unload that product and try to give folks a break.

Does this Econ 101 make sense to you? Oh and by the way I like informed consumers, but most companies, even those involved in our hobby do not necesarily like informed consumers. Why? Caveat Emptor, buyer beware... and as long as the market will bear it, they will charge it.

Nadin

 

[Death Jester]

nadinbrzezinski:

Oh yes, I understand completely, I do not misunderstand econ 101 by any means - it just annoys me that so many people are happy to be ripped off!

As I said before, as long as people are happy to pay for some \"perceived\" value which only exists in their minds, then there is no end of salesmen willing to \"perceive\" a suitably high price for them.


big mean elf:

no, not directed at you, the saying \"And on the eighth day God made stupid people\" is a steryotypical saying that indicates people who do not think for themselves, but are gullible and get preyed upon by those who are not.


sturmhalo:

GW staff discount is 50% for store items and about 65% - 70% for stuff straight from the factory. And they still make a profit.


On a final note, as I said earlier, I do not usually rant like this - retail prices are just one of the very few things that get me going! I just do not understand why people are so anxious to get rid of their hard-earned cash....

I think we have discussed this forum about as far as it can go - it is one of those debates that could go on forever, so maybe we should call it quits?

DJ

 

[vincegamer]

Marauders

Ack why did you have to depress me by mention those mech miniatures?
I played the old Apple game Mechwarrior when it first came out around 1990.
In 1997 I was in an antiques shop in southern california and the guy had about 6 mechs in original boxes, including marauder and phoenix hawk and maybe one or two more from the game, but at the time $30 would have been kind of tight for me for a nostalgia item.
A couple years later I started looking at minis on the internet and promptly began kicking myself. My resale profit would have been amazing!
Right up there with putting a pellet through my original Darth Vader action figure from 1977.

I have a question I\'ve only seen mentioned obliquely. Doesn\'t GW restrict what you can use in the tournaments?
I didn\'t get into WFB years ago when a friend was into it because he wouldn\'t let me use my Ral Partha giant mummy as a substitute for a character in the codex. In fact no one I met would allow substitutions.
Recently I found an army of old high elves in mixed state of repair for $35. Then I found out the local players don\'t care what figures you use. However, I think I\'ve heard the company would not let me use them because they are the old stuff. Is this true?
If so, that is my one and only problem with GW....well, that and scale creep.

 

[vincegamer]

profit

Of course they make a profit in spite of great discounts to staff: because sales to staff make up such a tiny fraction of total sales. They\'d make a profit if that same fraction were stolen. Heck I\'d be shocked if there were not a few thefts and if those were not calculated into what is necessary to charge the majority to keep their stock price high.

Do they \"need\" this profit? So long as the capitalist economy works as it does (i.e. valuing growth above all) then yes they \"need\" it.

 

[Death Jester]

Yep, GW only let you use their own stuff, and even that has to be from their \"current\" range!

There are many good independent traders (rogue traders, anyone?) who sell all different ranges - it is to their advantage to let gamers use whatever they want, so they can sell across the board.

My mates and I use whatever we want, the only rule we use is no \"figure reps\", i.e., it has to be armed with what it is really holding!

 

[vincegamer]

funny house rule

Funny that you have that rule since WFB (I bought the rule book used off ebay cheap) doesn\'t actually require that. It specifically says you can have different weapons on models in a unit but they are treated as having the same weapon as the majority of the unit.

 

[Chrispy]

It seems to me it would make more sense to allow usage of old GW products because they seem to be charging whatever they want for old \"Out of production\" models but seem to have plenty in stock so they can sell them online. If you think about it, the OOP models cost $5 for one and if you factor it out, some of the newer metal ones are $1. Thus, Even thought I could make a Harlequin army out of the $20 boxed eldar boxed set by converting, some player out there could be paying $60 for the older figures. Course as nadin said they perceive the value as more since it\'s older and there is not need to convert. Course as many of us know this is not the case with all their products.. My new $3 can of Rustoleum primer is a helluva lot better than their $7 dust in a can. And of course all the new player don\'t know this and naturally assume anything GW makes is gold.(Sure sells like it!! )

 

[Death Jester]

Yeah, sorry, we mostly play Necro or 40k, where there are squads!

In Warhammer a unit of swordsmen can actually contain the odd axeman, etc., because of the way the rules work - a unit in Warhammer is treated as if the figures are all the same. In squad battles, each individual can fight independently, so each individual figure has to be represented.

I once knew a guy who claimed to have this \"brilliant\" painted space marine army - I had a space ork army, so the gauntlet was thrown down! (The armies were both 3,000 points under the 2nd edition 40k system)

His \"army\" consisted of plastic marines, all in the exact same pose, all with nothing but bolt pistols, and ALL just sprayed blue - the only actual work he had done was to paint the bases on about half of them green. No sand or flock, even the guns were blue!

After we set up, he started saying that almost all of the marines had heavy weapons, the ones who didn\'t had jump packs - I complained, but he ignored me and almost every turn the \"heavy weapon\" marines and \"jump pack\" marines swapped over - the guy was blatantly cheating, and trying to brow-beat me into not complaining.

The final straw came when he tried to jump-pack \"around\" my first line of troops to attack the second line. Needless to say I refused to budge on this - we both knew that my unit of 40 gretchin could hold up his 5 marines for the rest of the game and the orks behind could charge next turn ank \"kill\" the marines! He had a veritable fit, accused me of not being fair (i.e., not leting him cheat!), and he stormed off in a huff. And do you know who he was? The local GW manager!

That\'s what I meant by \"no figure reps\"; if you want a figure to have a lascannon, then it has to have a lascannon visible for all to see! The only exception is the obvious, knives, grenades and pistols, all of which could be argued to be concealed inside a uniform or holster etc.

 

[vincegamer]

A suggestion

My only foray into 40K is my Spacehulk game. If you couldn\'t tell the pieces apart, it would be very easy to lose track of who was who since some scenarios required a flamer and your guys are always strung out around the board.
So if you would take a suggestion, I\'d say allow any unique weapon/armor so long as the figure is easily distinguishable.
I have a guy posted here titled \"knife fight\" who would be toast in any game if he weren\'t allowed to say he was actually using some other weapon. But if I said he was carrying a plasma pistol, you\'d always know who the guy with the plasma pistol was.
This guy with the blue army; I could see you easily accepting that the guys with the green bases were wearing jump packs, but it does sound like he was either trying to cheat or not clever enough to keep track of his men.
Maybe this is what you mean all along. After all, you seem like someone for whom the object is enjoying the game rather than merely trouncing the enemy.
Munchkins can ruin a game for anyone.

That said, of course reasonable effort should be made to come close to what you want. I didn\'t want to use my giant mummy to represent a troop of skeletons; I wanted him to represent some other giant undead thing.
I wouldn\'t try to play WFB and say since I don\'t have any Silverhelms I\'ll use these spacemarine bikes, but I might use these mounted knights from some Milton Bradley game.
I might say my spacemarines are in Terminator armor but only if I don\'t have any marines on the board who AREN\'t in terminator armor. (Actually that\'s what I usually do with Spacehulk since there are no scouts and I don\'t have that many terminator figures.)