Price increase! Aarrrgh!!!

[Death Jester]

Yeah, I know what u mean, there has to be some surprise in the game, but not to an unfair advantage!

Any figure can have any grenades or pistols, and you could say a laspistol was an auto pistol or stub gun because who is to say it is not? If the figures were in a real world, then they could make their weapons look the way they wanted - the 3 pistols I mentioned are all so similar that it doesn\'t matter what they are, as long as the player has it recorded on the start-up roster (because you get more experience for \"taking out\" a guy worth more points) The same for a special weapon, say melta-gun, flamer or plasma gun - in real life, you would be VERY aware that the guy had a special weapon, but until it is fired there is some doubt as to what it really does! By that rational, if a figure is armed with a plasma gun then we think it should be OK to say it is a flamer, as long as you pay the points for it and have it recorded. Not every \"flamer\" could be perceived to be by the same armaments corp., so maybe a company makes flamers that look a bit like plasma guns, who knows!

You can have a guy armed with a knife and say he has a plasma pistol, because the pistol could be hidden in his uniform - but it is NOT OK to have a guy with a knife and say that he has a flamer or a lascannon, because those weapons could not possibly be hidden from view!

This keeps everyone \"on their toes\" a little bit, but at the end of the day you know which figures have heavy weapons, which have special weapons, which have basic weapons and which have swords (close-combat experts!), and they can all have pistols and grenades, just like in \"real life\" - this is all of the information needed to plan an effective attack, defense or counter-attack!

Knowing the \"precise\" weapons your opponent has means several things:

1) Your opponent will also know all of YOUR weapons...
2) No surprises! And everyone loves surprises...
3) The game isn\'t fun if people bicker over the rules to such an extreme level!
4) Have u ever tried to convert an Escher ganger to carry a lascannon? It\'s far easier to just use the heavy plasma gun figure and say it\'s a lascannon...

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Vincegamar

Lets slay this dragon here and now!

The only place where GW requires that you use only the current range is when you have a clueless Outrider running it. This is direct from GW... at a RT tournament where they were present. Not only did they allow my husband to use a heavily converted Tamiya model in his cult of speed, but a forge world model priginally meant for Warzone, which had the Warzone insignia removed. The Outriders said no, the GW staff chuckled and said yes.

There is more to this. This army which had some \"unoficial models\" and some very old Orks from very old ranges, some very much out of production, took best painted army. So lets slay this rumor right now. GW has no problem, now their Outriders on the other hand do, but that is because a good percentage of their Outriders fall into the Fanatic are us category, which seems to be common to many a demo team, but that is another kettle of fish.

Nadin

 

[vincegamer]

outrider

Let me see if I understand you.
You used a term I\'m not familiar with: outrider.

Does that mean a retail outlet that acts as host to a tournament?
Or is that a distributor? Or is there some sort of \"field\" office?
By GW being \"there\" do you mean a representative of the company was in attendance for the purpose of overseeing the competition, or was there to push products? Or just happened to be in town and went to the tourny?
What it boils down to is this: are there \"official\" rules published under the company logo (with GW imprimatur) for use in tournaments or are they made up by the host, and some hosts have required only the current line thust originating a rumor that GW only allows current line figures? - or is this itself a rumor?

Your husband, did someone tell him he could not use said non-GW minis then he brought it up to a GW rep who said he could?
This is really just curiosity since I\'ve only just begun to consider playing the game (once I\'ve got my army all assembled and/or painted I\'ll play) and have no expectations of competing in a tournament any time soon.

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok all fair questions

Outrider = Demo Team member, representing the company. These folks volunteer their time to demo the games at stores, run leagues and tournaments. Usually they are compensated by some beanies given to them by the company... but for the most part they are just volunteers doing this because they believe in the hobby, best case scenario, or worst case because they truly believe they work for the company in a standard common sense. The worst of the lot, and by the way this goes to any demo team member for any company, will also bad mouth other companies, and engage in other less than ethical behaviour. In fact they do buy the press of their chosen habit being the extent of the hobby. It is not only a GW problem, but goes across the industry... and for the record, in San Diego most demo team members are so bad that I refuse to wear the Reaper T-Shirt, since any company T-Shirt is now identified with the word fanatic by many local fans of multiple lines.

In this particular case GW employees, aka those who are salaried employees were at the store since this was part of the Battle for Armagedon Campaign, and how the store got them to be there... they brought lots of product that summer to justify the GW Wagon to make the trip west.

Now these salaried employees can and do overule Outriders on a regular basis.

As to tournament rules, yes there are offiicial rules and you can email GW for them. You can find the adress on their website. Since I do not run GW tourneys I usually do not read them. That said, if a store is running a Rogue Trader Tournament they should have the latest copy of the rules, per GW rules, and make them available to gamers. Hell I just learned recently that the official tourney size has gone up from 1500 points to 1700 points.

Oh and as to my husband, what you said is exactly what happened, which due to the local store politics... the store owner was not too pleased either. You see, the store owner said, you cannot run with anything but official, and in print models... My husband asked the actual GW employee and was told, sure go for it...cool conversion man!


Nadin

 

[vincegamer]

non-GW minis in Rogue trader tourney

Okay, I went to GW\'s website and checked their rules and the posted rules of the local outrider for a 40k tourney that recently happened.
In both cases they DO require that you use ONLY Citadel miniatures. In fact the GW web site has that line in bold type.
I think your husband got lucky since the shop owner apparently felt a need to agree with the GW folks there. He may have been upset because he also felt a need to enforce the rules as written. The GW guys were probably not taking the whole thing very seriously.

That said, there is nothing at all about current lines, only that they be by Citadel.
I suppose if I wanted to field an Ork army made out of the old nasty models from HeroQuest I would be free to do that. (Since I\'ve got 2 copies of the game I might have enough models to do just that )
Oh, only \"painted\" models too.

So to quell the rumor/slay the dragon
GW officially requires that you use their models but old or converted stuff is fine.

 

[PBertous]

Desert dwelling

I live in deming NM and the nearest store is 65 miles or more from my location, and it sucks. I\'m the only gamer in deming that I know of. (now my point) Since I have moved down here, I have turned into a collector/painter. And since I\'m lost in the desert, I do my buying over the net, and now since I have seen the rackman, reaper and ikore line of minis I haven\'t bought a gm mini in alone time. I\'m not here to bitch about gm and their retarded price hike, I\'m just here to say I don\'t by them anymore . You have a choice, buy what you like and down with gm :flip:

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well here is the skinny

That Tamiya tank was heavily converted using GW pieces, hence that is why it was kosher.

Forgeworld, guess who makes the resin for GW these days? Forgeworld and that is why they allowed it.

Now as to the retailer... he got pissed because he wanted only current models, which meant that he coud no longer enforce the you shall not play GW games at my store if you have 1987 beakies in your Marine force, which is what he was doing

Now I do not keep up wiht the rules, I just know that two years ago Games Workshop Employees, the ones who drive the GW Wagon, allowed for this and the best painted army was won by this army. Point is, at the very least when I am told by a GW Outrider, you cannot play because your Eldar are Second Edition... I just leave. I am not going to replace a whole army on the whims of an outrider... and yes will make a point to inform GW of that. Why? People like that give their games in particular and the hobby in general a bad rep.

Nadin

 

[vincegamer]

Yes, fanaticism will drive away many more moderate gamers.
I would personally disagree with the person and tell him to check the website. If he or she is adamant then I would walk away as you do.
By the way, did you mention you are in San Diego?
If you happen to go up to Temecula, you should check out the antique shops in Old Town Temecula. That\'s where I saw those old battletech minis I wished I\'d bought. It wouldn\'t surprise me if they are still there since Temecula isn\'t exactly a Mecca for gamers.

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

I will be in San Diego

In oh, by the end of the year, we hope, goking back home. I am currently stuck in Hawaii.... as to San Diego, well it used to be a Mecha for BattleTech... and with teh WWW I would not be surprised if he sold them.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by nadinbrzezinski
I am currently stuck in Hawaii....

Boy there\'s something you don\'t hear every day. You poor thing.lol

 

[Con EL Pueblo]

Hawaii? I pitty you... Here it\'s -10 Celsius...

Well, to clear a few things up, I would like to add that not ALL Outriders are intolerant, incompetent, brain-washed jerks.

I know I wasn\'t ( I\'m not \'Riding any longer, the manager WAS a jerk, so I quit )

That said, I live in Denmark, and we seem to be more lassez fair (this is possibly \'orribly spelt) in these parts than in USA.
Once, we let a Dwarf player use a \'glow-in-the-dark\' scorpion figure in his army! (we had to yank his Dwarf Lord of it, of course, but that is a whole other Pump Wagon lol)...

One of my fellow Outriders actually HATED the (at that time) new 40K system, and used every chance he got to tell this to other gamers

It seemed that either

1) the players were very young and dedicated to their hobby, and didn\'t take notice

or

2) the players were veterans, and could see his point, but didn\'t mind him rambling.

That\'s all folks!


\"Vernon! That light! ...The Jeffersons\' dog is back!\"

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Now on another subject

Trust me hawaii is a nice place to visit, but that is about it folks.

Now one good thing I s\'pose is that the humidity allows for easier blending.

And I know not all Outriders are jerks... it is just that small minority that are that turn people off.

Nadin

 

[Flashman14]

If I\'m not mistaken, I think the madness about not being able to use older figures comes from older figures not being part of the new rules.

In other words, tournament rules only cover the current edition of the rules and if earlier rules dealt with some out of production models or unit (like Empire Halflings in WFB for example) then they couldn\'t be used. Only Chapter Approved and the latest Codex define what specific troop types you can use in the tournament. And if you had old elements on the table for which rules didn\'t cover then there\'d be no way to play them unless you used older edition rules.

Get it?? Or do I not get it?

 

[nadinbrzezinski]

Partially yuo get it

Granted I do not think I will ever be able to run a Squat army... that will be the day.

That said, this madness also goes into silly things like grot riggers. I will use them since they are the best example for this madness. The grot riggers (and the older ones were even cuter) are part and parcel of the rules for the Cult of Speed. By their own rules you are suposed to have a grot if you buy one. Now here is the trick... there are no longer any grots sculped with wrenches... they are part of the archive.

Now by the deffition used by some people running these tourneys, you cannot use the old ones, never mind that the rules call for them. Is this funny? Yes, absolutely.

Now there are older models in a range that rules no longer exist for, ok, that is nice...they can always be used to represent another type of troop... see them squats, can be used for halfings and I have seen them used that way.

Reality is I cannot expect, in all fairness, for GW to allow me to use toy soldiers for my I-Guard... first off uggly blobs of plastic, second off they don\'t make them and third off, why bother painting them and companies make money of selling their product. Hence I have no problem with this silly requirement that I need to use models from their range. That said, if you are going to run a tournament for (insert company here) at the very least make sure you understand what is the company stand regarding painting as a requirement (which is becoming pretty universal for a reason), proxy (Most allow it, GW actually does not, that is unless the actual model is not made), and army composition,. Of course knowing the rules would be a start, I have seen people running these things that are not familiar with any of the above.

Now another pet peeve of many folks is that they require models to be painted. Well seeing the decline of painted armies as the years go by I can understand why... and folks havng to apply three colors is not that onerous of a requirement. This one is slowly becoming the rule and not the exception across the industry as well...

oh and to the original reason for the post, nothing funnier than seeing a local retailer not happy once he sees this so called rumor ahem, confirmed by GW... it was funny.

Nadin

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah, those WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) models can be weird sometimes, especially in games where you can change you gear constantly like in Mordheim or Inquisitor. Luckily they\'re a bit more lax on those parts, so long as the space marine throwing a grenade is moddeled by a space marine, it\'s ok.. But suddenly in WH40K, if I want a tank upgrade for one battle it\'s back to the converting lab or buy a new model... which do you think they would prefer.. eh, eh?

 

[Big Mean Elf]

price hikes

Originally posted by Sturmhalo
By \'hooked up\' do you mean you work for GW?



I have turned down one job from them,and worked in a game store for another company,as and asst manager,but no...I just have a few buds that are retailers,so me get good prices on my GW addiction...
lol!lollol

 

[Big Mean Elf]

big mean elf:

no, not directed at you, the saying \"And on the eighth day God made stupid people\" is a steryotypical saying that indicates people who do not think for themselves


Well...some folks are not informed,it does not make them stupid...now it could be said some are lazzy and don`t seek out other avinues to do thier buy`n...lol!:bouncy:

 

[Big Mean Elf]

price hikes

Originally posted by Flashman14
If I\'m not mistaken, I think the madness about not being able to use older figures comes from older figures not being part of the new rules.

In other words, tournament rules only cover the current edition of the rules and if earlier rules dealt with some out of production models or unit (like Empire Halflings in WFB for example) then they couldn\'t be used. Only Chapter Approved and the latest Codex define what specific troop types you can use in the tournament. And if you had old elements on the table for which rules didn\'t cover then there\'d be no way to play them unless you used older edition rules.

Get it?? Or do I not get it?

B-Bling!!!:idea:
Gid dat man a cigar!

LOL!

 

[Big Mean Elf]

price hikes

Now as to the retailer... he got pissed because he wanted only current models, which meant that he coud no longer enforce the you shall not play GW games at my store if you have 1987 beakies in your Marine force, which is what he was doing
...A Hole,man!...that is part of the fun...he sounds like an odd one,sell sell kinda guy,I don`t want you to bring old sh-ite in here,buy what I have iin stock!
...You Think?

Now I do not keep up wiht the rules, I just know that two years ago Games Workshop Employees, the ones who drive the GW Wagon, allowed for this and the best painted army was won by this army. Point is, at the very least when I am told by a GW Outrider, you cannot play because your Eldar are Second Edition... I just leave. I am not going to replace a whole army on the whims of an outrider... and yes will make a point to inform GW of that. Why? People like that give their games in particular and the hobby in general a bad rep.

Yeah,he needs a good retune`n,the idea is to \"HAVE FUN\"!!!!!!!!!

Nadin [/quote]:]:cool cool:

 

[Sturmhalo]

I\'ve heard stories of people not being allowed to use certain models in games before, and I\'m not just talking about competition games either! One guy I know hasn\'t been \'allowed\' by other gamers to use his old dark elf war eagle simply because it\'s an ancient model (from the early 80\'s I think) and isn\'t part of the current dark elf army lists.

I think the problem here is simply a symptom of GW spoon feeding everything to the gamer these days. Way back in the mists of time there wasn\'t such a strong emphasis on army lists and the like. In fact being creative was all part of the gaming experience. No rules for a dark elf war eagle? Make some up, run them by your opponents, everyone says great, game on! But these days we have whole books containing very precise lists for every army type that GW produce. Old gamers from long ago will still have that pioneer spirit, but all the newbie pre-teens don\'t necessarily think for themselves because they don\'t have to. It\'s all in a book. These kids grow into adults maintaining their attitude and then we get jobsworths who run everything by the book as if GW\'s words are carved in stone.

Years ago when I was foolish enough to go into my local GW store on a school holiday there were loads of kids in there stinking the place out (like piss and cheese :|~). Anyway, wading through them there was a large table at the back of the store and 6 or more were attempting to play a game of 40k supervised by the creche manager... sorry, store manager. These little bastards were arguing over every little thing. \'He\'s got trees in front of his troops to hide behind, I haven\'t!\', \'he\'s got more marines than me that\'s not fair\', the army list says this not that\', etc.... In the end they all started with trees or rocks in front of their squads of marines because one kid had been able to set up almost behind a few trees. I left after making my purchase. By that time the kids were doing nothing but argue and informing one another that if they didn\'t like a particular decision they could \'sit on my finger and f**kin\' swivel\'. I wonder if they\'re store managers these days?

Anyway, my point is that gamers are ruled by the rules more so these days than perhaps they ever were. Though I guess there will always be a certain minority that use the rule book as their bible.