Principal\'s Treatment Of Student Accused Of Theft

[Zora]

Well, this brought back memories...

Here\'s more than you ever wanted to know about me: lol

When I was 8 (must be the age for this), I was accused of stealing from the daycare lady I went to every day. My parents took me around to my friends, where I had to give back everything that we had traded, given each other, etc. and say it was because \"I stole something\". I had to go to my soccer coach and tell him I couldn\'t come to practice or games because \"I stole something\".

It still affects me.

Now I don\'t blame my parents, as they thought they were doing right by way of punishment. After all, they had the story straight from another adult. What they found out later was that the woman was going to throw away a Mickey Mouse eraser top...I asked if I could have it...she said no. I then grabbed it out of the garbage.

Accused of stealing.

My mom still feels bad to this day about that. It wasn\'t \'til later that they found out about the brand new playground equipment and yard the daycare had installed...for HER kids only! None of the other kids were allowed to play on it.

Again, I don\'t blame my parents. I DO blame the person who accused me, told my parents and all the other kids I was a thief, and thoughtlessly scarred a little kid.

Yes, scarred.

 

[frenchkid]

I don\'t see the point in making a big story out of this.
I don\'t recall beeing weak fragil thing at 8 nor do I see today\'s 8 year olds beeing poor little things who are influenced by the slightest humiliation. I\'m not saying the Principal was right, on the contrary. But saying that harm as been done to the child is just stupid.
Kid\'s aren\'t supose to grow up in a small cocoon of love where their every need is attended to. I\'m no educator but I strongly suspect that this would on the contrary be a bad thing. And will the Principal was wrong, I\'d consider that a human mistake. And considering that type of \'punishment\' is handed out by US courts there\'s no need to look far to see where he got the idea.
Hey if you look on the bright side the girl will have an idea of the world she\'s growing into and might think twice before voting for humiliation treatment by courts.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by frenchkid
And considering that type of \'punishment\' is handed out by US courts there\'s no need to look far to see where he got the idea.

What punishments would you be referring to?

And are you suggesting that France\'s court system is much better?
Because the last 15 days would seem to be proving you wrong.

 

[Gin1906]

***Deleted strong reply to Frenchkid****
Calmer now...
Question....
Frenchkid...do you have children?

Have you ever held your 8 year old child while she cries because \"every one at school hates her.\" or \"her teacher hates her\"

I have.

Have you had a lot of experiance with young children?

I do, professionally.

As an adult? (I assume you are an adult) do you enjoy it when some one accuses you of something you did not do?

I know that at age 37 I do not enjoy being humilated, or wrongfully accused. So why would I ever imagine that an 8 year old child would like it, understand it. and most of all not be hurt.

Gin

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Gin1906
***Deleted strong reply to Frenchkid****
Calmer now...
Question....
Frenchkid...do you have children?

Have you ever held your 8 year old child while she cries because \"every one at school hates her.\" or \"her teacher hates her\"

I have.

Have you had a lot of experiance with young children?

I do, professionally.

As an adult? (I assume you are an adult) do you enjoy it when some one accuses you of something you did not do?

I know that at age 37 I do not enjoy being humilated, or wrongfully accused. So why would I ever imagine that an 8 year old child would like it, understand it. and most of all not be hurt.

Gin

Gin, if I recall correctly, Frenchkid is 18.

 

[SaxonAngel]

That poor child WILL be scarred...

I have a son who is 7 and a half years old.

He\'s such a sweetie that he cries even when the villian dies in a Disney movie.

Something like this would absolutely destroy him.

And I can imagine it\'s not much different with this little girl.. What was done to her was horrible horrible horrible. She WILL be scarred and WILL need counselling.

In many ways it was much worse than a slap or spanking.

This principal should be IMHO:
1) fired
2) Receive training on child psychology and discipline
3) publically apologise
4) be charged with abuse of a minor
5) perform community service for children\'s groups
6) most importantly; PAY for counselling for the child.

Personally I would probably be VERY tempted to punch the b*tch out and then sue her ass. However those are not reasonable.

Damn it Dave... Why did you have to ruin my evening with the sad story...

F**K! Now I\'m crying!

 

[Gin1906]

SA,
Its amazing how our perceptions change when we have children is it not!
The anger and hurt we can feel for another child not even our own!

Yes the principal should be fired, and all that you have said.
She should also have to go in front of the entire school and apologize to the child.

And sadly that would not change the little girl, she would still be hurt.


@ Evil Dave,
Yea I knew that Frenchkid was still a teenager, that was kind of my point, until he is a parent, he really doesn\'t have a clue.

Gin

 

[Legacy Account]

The principal made a mistake, fair enough.

She\'ll no doubt lose her job sooner or later. But you lot sound like an angry lynch mob!

She was only trying to instill some values of what is right and wrong in the kids! Granted a wrongful public humiliation wasn\'t the right way to go about it....

As for charging her with abuse of a minor, don\'t you think it kind of waters down what that phrase should REALLY mean?

It\'s getting to the point (in this country at least) where teachers are forced to consider every single action they take, be that a verbal reprimand, reporting an incident and even attending extra-curricular activities because of what MAY happen. This blame-society is certainly having a negative impact on education in this country, with fewer teachers recruited, many leaving the profession and pupil disruption being the name of the day.

The principal\'s punishment might have been deemed a superb display of leadership IF SHE HAD GOT IT RIGHT!

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
And are you suggesting that France\'s court system is much better?
Because the last 15 days would seem to be proving you wrong.

What does the French penal system have to do with the rioting? Absolutely nowt.

 

[frenchkid]

Aaarghl, now I\'m going to go down in flames for having dared to expresse an opinion different from the masses, I am truly evil

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Originally posted by frenchkid
And considering that type of \'punishment\' is handed out by US courts there\'s no need to look far to see where he got the idea.

What punishments would you be referring to?

And are you suggesting that France\'s court system is much better?
Because the last 15 days would seem to be proving you wrong.

I was refering to public humiliation. And I don\'t recall making mention of french court systeme so I don\'t really see what you\'re talking about. The fact that I\'m french dosn\'t mean that I think everything french is better, and I would hope that the fact you\'re american dosn\'t mean you refuse to consider anything outside america to be better.
As for the rioting, I think spacemunki said it quit well. Plus I seem to recall such things in america too ( and a couple of other countries).


Now to answer Gin. First I\'m 19, and obviously do not have children. So does that mean I\'m not allowed to think about the issue at hand. I could take it the other way. My childhood memories are much closer then your\'s could be, so you probably forgot all about beeing child and me still beeing 19 those memories are quit close. But That\'s not what I think, and despite the way you might feel about it I see myself as able as you when it comes to discussing the moral implications of such an issue.
Now I\'ll answer the questions:
No I don\'t have children, I do have a small brother though.
No nerver held a crying eight year old saying \'every one in school hates me\'. I\'v seen plenty of them though, dosn\'t seem to be abnormal behavior to me ( and before anyone comes up saying that it\'s because I live in france, I\'v seen it too in the US). But more importantly I\'v been one of those child, more then once. I\'v moved around my whole life and integrating a new school is never an easy thing. when coming from a different country, the first weeks are alawys filled of people thinking of you the way they think about the countrie. So when I moved from england to swiss I was suposed to be some stuck up snobish kid, then when I moved to the US from france I was suposed to be a beret wearing kid who ate frogs and never washed, ect... So yes I\'v had quit a few experience of \'everybody hates me\', but seems I survived alright, and more importantly found out that it was true. This might not be the best exemple since it\'s kid to kid humiliation. So here\'s another one. When I was about 9, one of my teachers slaped me in the face, quit illiegal I assure you. And I\'m ready to bet the humiliation suffered was at least as important as that little girl. And, even with the memory fresh in my mind, I don\'t think for one seconde I was durably affected by this.
Would I enjoy beeing humiliated as an adult ( wich I am at least in the eye of the law)? Well I really doubt that anybody would answer yes here ( apart from SM maybe ). But not enjoying somthing and beeing durably hurt by it are two opposit things.

 

[Nomis]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie
The principal made a mistake, fair enough.

She\'ll no doubt lose her job sooner or later. But you lot sound like an angry lynch mob!

She was only trying to instill some values of what is right and wrong in the kids! Granted a wrongful public humiliation wasn\'t the right way to go about it....

As for charging her with abuse of a minor, don\'t you think it kind of waters down what that phrase should REALLY mean?

It\'s getting to the point (in this country at least) where teachers are forced to consider every single action they take, be that a verbal reprimand, reporting an incident and even attending extra-curricular activities because of what MAY happen. This blame-society is certainly having a negative impact on education in this country, with fewer teachers recruited, many leaving the profession and pupil disruption being the name of the day.

The principal\'s punishment might have been deemed a superb display of leadership IF SHE HAD GOT IT RIGHT!

Gotta say this is cr*p - even if she was guilty there is no way an eight year old should have been publicly humiliated like this!

There is no context for this story so I assume that this is an issolated incident and the girl had not been accused before - mind you even if she had the punishment is completely unacceptable.

As is noted in the follow up reorts the school has procedures for dealing with this and other incidents. These were ignored - I don\'t think I would have much confidence in this persons ability in other regards if she is so blatent in her disregard of a childs sensitivities as she demonstrated.

Off with her head I say!

 

[Legacy Account]

Storm in a teacup.

Public apology from the Principal and a nice, holistic assembly telling the whole school that everyone makes mistakes.

Bob\'s yer uncle....

I just find it rather brutal to lynch someone for what may (not knowing her past history...) be a one off mistake. It\'s too easy to chuck away all those years experience and good work that may have gone into making her a principal.

It is not so easy to create someone with that wealth of experience. We are all human, and we all make mistakes. Unfortunately and increasingly we are not able to because of the unforgiving nature of the media.

I got smacked on the arse in assembly at that age I seem to remember...

As you say F-Kid, I\'m a bit of a masochist where public humiliation is concerned!

 

[Evil Dave]

I mentioned the riots because I\'d read somewhere that over half those arrested already had a criminal background, which is increasingly alarming since the majority of the rioters were young men or teenagers, which directly leads to the french penal system.
So yes it does pertain to what I was saying.

@frenchkid: You have not answered my question yet.
What specific punishments have our courts handed down that are humiliating?

You first pointed specifically to what you think is a flaw of the US court systems, without acknowledging that your own system\'s are flawed as well.
This lead to a understanding, maybe only by me, that since you did not mention your flaws, you think that your system is superior.

My point is this: Look to yourself before pointing out the flaws of others. Other wise it is often misconstrued as an insult rather than helpful critisism.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

The principal\'s punishment might have been deemed a superb display of leadership IF SHE HAD GOT IT RIGHT!

If the child had been in their late teens and actually guilty, I\'d agree with you.
If the parents had been notified before the Principal did this I would have agreed with you.
However since this isn\'t the case, and since the Principal upon realizing her mistake did not immediately grab the child and the accuser and go back around the classrooms and clarify the error, she is wrong.
I\'ve worked within the school system, and have met several Principals, while most are good people, there are quite a few who are nasty, little tyrants, who think they are the law of the schools answering to no one.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by Whyspyr
\"Home Schooling-it\'s not just for scary religious people.\" Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Unfortunately it\'s nearly impossible to find home-schooling materials that have been approved by the state you live in that were not designed for scary religious people.
Thing is, most people want to home school to avoid the taint of atheism that is in public schools.
But what if you think public schools are too religious???


p.s. I think it would have been proper for the principal to go room to room apologizing, but should NOT bring the innocent girl along. That would just be more embarrassment for an 8-year-old.

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
I mentioned the riots because I\'d read somewhere that over half those arrested already had a criminal background, which is increasingly alarming since the majority of the rioters were young men or teenagers, which directly leads to the french penal system.
So yes it does pertain to what I was saying.

@frenchkid: You have not answered my question yet.
What specific punishments have our courts handed down that are humiliating?

You first pointed specifically to what you think is a flaw of the US court systems, without acknowledging that your own system\'s are flawed as well.
This lead to a understanding, maybe only by me, that since you did not mention your flaws, you think that your system is superior.

My point is this: Look to yourself before pointing out the flaws of others. Other wise it is often misconstrued as an insult rather than helpful critisism.

I\'m no specialist on the issue but I believe I\'m not far from the truth when I say that in any country there is an \'interesting\' percentage of crimes who are comited by already convicted people. Any way the discussion at hand not having anything to do with france I still fail to see how it is relevent.
And I did answer you question. But I\'ll try to make it clearer. Us judges are allowed to use public humilliation as a mean of punishment. If you want exemples: walking in the street for a couple of months with a sign saying: \"I\'m a thief\", having your picture on the front page of the local newspaper with the title thief, allowing people you\'v robed come to your house to rob you, ect...
Now why did I mention this ? Because it would seem the issue we were discussing takes place in the Us and that the punishment used by the principal is the same type of punishment used by the courts. And I haven\'t proclaimed such thing to be a flaw ( I\'m of two mind about those types of sentences). But even if I had I still don\'t see how I could be pointing out at the same time that the french systeme is better. Pointing out that somthing is flawed dosn\'t mean that you can do better or that you are better. Otherwise constructive crtiscime would be hard to do. And I sincerly hope you don\'t react that way everytime sombodys makes a remark about you or your country. And to dispel all doubts you may have: I\'m no specialist on the courts systems throughout the world, thus it is quit impossible for me to proclaim one systeme to be better.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by frenchkid
Us judges are allowed to use public humilliation as a mean of punishment. If you want exemples: walking in the street for a couple of months with a sign saying: \"I\'m a thief\", having your picture on the front page of the local newspaper with the title thief, allowing people you\'v robed come to your house to rob you, ect...

I\'ve been a citizen of the US for well over 30 years now and have witnessed none of these examples, perhaps a link?

Now most of the time when I\'ve heard of an unusual punishment being handed down, the person has a choice of doing the punishment or going to jail, so really, not only do they choose to do the crime, but they also get a choice of punishments, doesn\'t seem right to bitch about it if you had a choice.

This little girl had no choice, was falsely accused, without the benefit of a trial, or a representative. (her parents)

I personally think humiliation is a perfectly valid punishment( Ask that American kid that was caned in Singapore, I\'ll bet he never spray paints a car again.), however, the system must be followed, one person should not be judge, jury and executioner, especially with absolutely no proof.

@SaxonAngel- Sorry

 

[Gin1906]

Well, I suppose I could be nasty and post a mean reply to Frenchkid, but I won\'t.

As a parent who has a child who went through something similar to the child in the article I have more first hand knowledge then he does about how this affects a young child.

Yes, I am older than Frenchkid, but I also work every day with young children as a child care provider. I have children of my own. And I do vividly remember my own abusive childhood.

Do I think that a child will not \"survive\" being humiliated, NO, but I also believe they should not have to \"survive\"
Should a child have to \"survive\" being molested, abused, beaten, or bullied?
I would hope the answer to those would be NO.

So why would anyone think that it is OK for an authority figure (as the principal is) humiliate a child?

Do I believe in disciplining a child, Oh you better believe it. But this is not the way to go about it.

As to teachers, SM. you are or have been a teacher correct?

I honor you, friggen hardest job in the world, hands down! the \'system\' does not make your job any easier, and God only know the parents are worse. Do I get the frustration the teachers feel? Oh yea I go through it daily in my job also.
I will not ever agree that what this Principal did was right or even close.

So I guess to sum up my overly long ramble,
Will the little girl \"survive\" her public humiliation....Yes, should she have ever had to NO?
Thats all I am going to say on this one.
Gin

 

[vincegamer]

I think everyone knows I\'m a US lawyer.

I am not a judge, and the power of judges is kind of vague.

Anyway, I doubt any of those punishments is real, with the possible exception of wearing a plaquard with the word \"thief.\" I\'m positive the \"letting victims steal from the robber\" is made up.

Anyway, that\'s not to say public humiliation is not something courts hand out (publicized lists of sex offenders is an example).
However, this is not a thread critiquing the legal system, but the educational system. The fact is no matter what you say, a court would not order public humiliation of an 8-year-old. She is a minor and under a different set of rules.

So, trying to keep to subject, she is a child at school. Principals have to have some degree of freedom in disciplining students to maintain order. It is the principal\'s position to investigate accusations and meet out discipline. This particular principal showed poor judgment or ability in both of those categories. From the report we see her taking one child\'s word over anothers, with no grounds for it. Assuming that\'s true (never trust the press) then that was one error. I think the only other error was the excessive extent of the humiliation. One classroom would have been sufficient. So poor understanding of child psychology.

Should someone with poor understanding of child psychology and bad judgment be a principal? I don\'t think so.

 

[Gin1906]

Well said Vince, well said.

ahhh shoot, I just agreed with a lawyer, I\'m goin\' to Hell for sure now lollollol.

Gin