Problems Layering

[montka]

Hi all,

thanks in advance for any help offered, I appreciate it!

I\'ve recently been trying to make the move from painting table top standard models to display standard and its pretty challenging! Tonight I tried to paint a couple of ork weapons in nmm grey.

I\'ve posted the results below. You should be able to see in the first few photos that the distribution of paint is uneven. Where I was hoping for a smooth transition of colours by applying thin layers of paint, I got something else.

This has confused me because following advice I have already received on this site, I made sure to use very dilute paint and to wipe of excess paint on a tissue before applying it to the model - I wiped of the paint until I couldn\'t see paint coming off onto the tissue, then kept wiping it off for another 4 or so swipes, yet I still get a very uneven distribution of colour as you can see:

Another problem I had was lack of coverage. On the photos below I have applied at least 50 to 100 layers of thinned chaos black to try and shade the codex grey, yet there is barely any colour showing up on the model. I made sure to apply my base coats in thin layers; can you suggest why the coverage might have been so poor?

On a positive note I tried wetblending on a space marine which has turned out quite well, so I thought I\'d show you him:

 

[Trevor]

My guess would be that you\'ve gone too far. Too dilute, wiped too much off.

Really it doesn\'t matter how thin your paint is, or how much you wipe off, it needs to be right for you and what you want to do.

Sometimes that might mean almost neat out of the bottle, other times massively watered down. It just depends. So ease up a bit, more paint, less water and take less off the brush and see how it goes.

One caveat, you can always add more paint, but its hard to take it off.

 

[fiesta0618]

Another thing is that if your paint is extremely dilute, one of two things can happen. Either the pigment is no longer in suspension, so it just sinks to the bottom of your mix, or the pigment doesn\'t flow off the brush. You can fix the first by adding acrylic medium (like Vallejo makes); the second is solved by adding flow improver, or dish soap if you\'re cheap like me. I find that beyond 5:1 water to paint, you need one or both of the above products to keep things working properly.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by montka
This has confused me because following advice I have already received on this site, I made sure to use very dilute paint and to wipe of excess paint on a tissue before applying it to the model - I wiped of the paint until I couldn\'t see paint coming off onto the tissue, then kept wiping it off for another 4 or so swipes, yet I still get a very uneven distribution of colour as you can see:

It\'s too dilute.

Originally posted by montka
Another problem I had was lack of coverage.

It\'s too dilute.

Originally posted by montka
On the photos below I have applied at least 50 to 100 layers of thinned chaos black...

lol

One thing you might want to try is a mix of Codex Grey and black for intermediate layering, then switching to straight black.

Einion

 

[montka]

Thanks for the advice so far guys

Another question I have is whether it is possible to get good results using the layering technique without feathering or wetblending the highlights.

I\'ve read a tutorial by EricJ who uses the technique. I also noticed that he only uses water to dilute his paint and doesn\'t add any acrylic medium or dish soap to the mix from what I gathered. Does that mean they aren\'t necessary to an expert paint job?

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by montka
I also noticed that he only uses water to dilute his paint and doesn\'t add any acrylic medium or dish soap to the mix from what I gathered. Does that mean they aren\'t necessary to an expert paint job?

I almost never use any, either.

 

[silverdragonn]

I had a tough time too with layering when I first started out. But I had the same problems.

Everyone is correct: you\'re diluting too much.

The second thing I learnt was that it would be a better transition if gradients of colour was used instead of layering lots of layers in. What i mean is this: say you\'re shading a blue item. You have the nice medium tone blue, a dark blue and a light blue. What I used to do was just have the medium blue as a base, and attempt to layer up gradually to the light blue and down to the dark blue. I got some successes, some not. What I next tried was mixing the light blue with the medium blue, thinning it only a little, and putting that on first before putting on the light blue, and same with the dark blue. I got much smoother transitions and it wasn\'t all that blotchy.

Right now I\'m trying to perfect my glaze ratio to make extreme smoothness between the layers.

It is difficult when people say that the ratio of water to paint is \"whatever you think it should be\"., or \"experiment and use what feels right.\" I got caught up in the diluted-too-much section based on that advice :s

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by montka
Another question I have is whether it is possible to get good results using the layering technique without feathering or wetblending the highlights.

Feathering, well it depends a bit on exactly what\'s meant. Brushing out the edges of highlights in particular is often done as part of a normal application method; this isn\'t necessarily feathering the way everyone defines it but it does use some of the same technique.

Wetblending is something I almost never do. You can certainly work without it but definitely try it, if you find it does something that\'s beneficial to your painting then by all means use it.

Originally posted by montka
I also noticed that he only uses water to dilute his paint and doesn\'t add any acrylic medium or dish soap to the mix from what I gathered. Does that mean they aren\'t necessary to an expert paint job?

In short, yep.

But paints vary and the exact nature of your technique and the paints you use (and the water!) mean additives of various kinds are more important to some people than others. Bottom line: if you can work without additives then go for it, but if water by itself isn\'t cutting it then try additives instead of, or in addition to, water.

Einion

 

[Trevor]

Another question I have is whether it is possible to get good results using the layering technique without feathering or wetblending the highlights

Yes, it certainly is.
silverdragon has it right. Try using a range of colours in your layering. Actually you can do both, less colours* and more, thinner layers, or more colours and less layers.

*by colours I guess I really mean shades. So you might have dark, medium and light, but you could add medium dark and medium light to get a smoother range.

As for additives, they can help, but aren\'t necessary. Automaton went through a phase of using various mediums, but has gone back to pretty much just water. I occasionally use vallejo glaze medium, particularly if its very hot and the paint is drying too quickly.

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Trevor
I occasionally use vallejo glaze medium, particularly if its very hot and the paint is drying too quickly.

Have you tried a wet palette?

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by green stuff

Message original : Trevor
I occasionally use vallejo glaze medium, particularly if its very hot and the paint is drying too quickly.

Have you tried a wet palette?

Cedric: Don\'t forget Trevor used to be in Australia, now he\'s back in the UK humidity and wet pallettes will be the least of his problems painting.

 

[montka]

Originally posted by Trevor

Actually you can do both, less colours* and more, thinner layers, or more colours and less layers.

As for additives, they can help, but aren\'t necessary.

??? If its possible to use lots of very thin layers without additives then what\'s going wrong with my own work?

 

[AllTerrainMonkey]

Originally posted by montka

Originally posted by Trevor

Actually you can do both, less colours* and more, thinner layers, or more colours and less layers.

As for additives, they can help, but aren\'t necessary.

??? If its possible to use lots of very thin layers without additives then what\'s going wrong with my own work?

I think it\'s your definition of \"lots\" that\'s the problem, montka. As the above posters have said, from what you\'re saying your paint is entirely too thin. If you\'re putting on 50 layers and not seeing much color at all you\'ve thinned your paint so much it\'s broken down. Try starting at the thick end of layering and thin down, rather than overthinning and adding less water.

How much thinner are you adding to your paints exactly? The thinnest I go is 1:10 paint:water for when I glaze an area, but for my normal layering I use 3:1 paint:water.

 

[JesterzUSMC]

3:1 /paint:water?
Only for base coats.
I use 3:1 / Wateraint. on any shading/highlighting.
Much improved over anything I have posted on here.

 

[AllTerrainMonkey]

I think a lot of it depends on the paint you use; I use MSP\'s for almost everything, so it doesn\'t take much thinning to get them to layer well. You can look at my photos and tell me if you think my layering\'s decent or horrific .

The main thing though is painters use tons of different styles, and there\'s no one right way to paint. I still think that if the OP is using 50-100 layers and getting hardly any color shift the paint\'s unarguably too thin to be effective, and starting thicker and working out would allow them to more quickly gauge the paint then starting at 1:20 paint/water and working in.

 

[JesterzUSMC]

Oh My! I\'m sorry, I didn\'t mean for that to sound as awful as that!

I agree on your advice about too thinned.
I was just reacting to the difference in our two styles.

Not knocking yours, just that I\'ve newly begun appreciating the value of thinned paint.

I\'m terribly sorry if I\'ve ruffled feathers!
:redface:

 

[AllTerrainMonkey]

No worries Jester, that\'s why I had the \'s on what I was saying . You did make me realize I forgot to clarify a few things; namely, I use feathering strokes (turning the brush 90 degrees so the line is made up of AAAAAAAAA\'s rather than -----------------------), so if you\'re not looking to feather the strokes thinner is better than thicker (sorry Montka, didn\'t see the post where you said you weren\'t looking to feather). When I do the EricJ\'ish layering I use a 1:5 to 1:7 paint/water ratio.