Problems with paints - !!

[Ikaponthus]

Hi,

I\'m having some problems with paints I was hoping someone can help me with. I guess I\'m an \"intermediate\" level painter - http://www.coolminiornot.com/75802 is one of my better minis. All the paints I use are GW Citadel colours.

I have two main, seperate problems...

1. Is that I seem to get a chalky finish all the time. When I look at the better models on this website they look so smooth...like a cartoon. I guess they all maybe a little chalky and it\'s hard to tell, because after mine is photographed it doesn\'t look all that chalky either. It\'s just a kind of powdering, rough finish instead of smooth finish. Especially with lighter colours.

2. Is paint consistency. And I know this is a hard one to put right. Most often I load the brush just out of the lid of the tub. I always add maybe 2ml of paint thinner to all my new paints and a couple of little stones to help shake them up. If I make the paint thin and paint several layers to get a nice, even coat, it ends up looking kind of \"dirty\" and muddy. It seems by the time I add enough layers (maybe 4) to get a consistent coat, it\'s so thick, chalky and \"globby\" I may as well just have done it with one thick coat.

Does anyone have any tips? Am I not waiting long enough for the layers to dry or something? And what\'s up with the chalky effect? Does everyone get that it you just can\'t see it in the photos, or is just me??

 

[Ogrebane]

Dont put thinners in your paint. Or if you do put water and dishwashing detergent. NEVER use paint out of the tin. Go buy a pallete and water down your paints in it. There are some tutes on how to make a wet pallette in the articles section. Sometimes if the paint is old it will go chalky. I have this problem with white. Also use bottled or distilled water to mix your paints as some water is very harsh and no good for painting. Also make sure your brushes and pallette are clean becuase that can introduce impurities. And dont forget to do a wash to bring the color back. It will get rid of the washed out look. Good luck. This is just my opinion tho.

 

[Einion]

I think part of your problem here is simply going to come down to your paints. Not that there\'s automatically something wrong with GW\'s but clearly they don\'t suit the way some people paint and they aren\'t the best paints across the range. I would recommend buying some alternatives to try out for yourself, although do remember that how paints handle will vary a small amount across most ranges.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
1. Is that I seem to get a chalky finish all the time....

Okay, chalky\" is used in varied ways by different people so glad you clarified - many people mean a colour problem (a sort of dull, pastel look when white is used to lighten, often) not one of texture, so if you see the word used by someone else it might not mean the same thing.

Don\'t judge photos here as necessarily being that straight a depiction of the real look of a mini\'s paintwork. Apart from the very flat, diffused lighting used by most people to shoot their work helping to give a flattering result we can clearly see that some shots are processed bigtime in image-editing software, giving more of that cartoony look. Have a look at these two images from my gallery, they show an unedited appearance so you\'re seeing pretty much exactly what you would in the flesh, warts and all:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/102504
http://www.coolminiornot.com/87599
Then compare to this, see the sort of \'processed\' look it has?
http://www.coolminiornot.com/86771
That\'s from having to adjust the colour a fair bit, reducing the noise as well as a large reduction in image size on top of all that.

Anyway, it\'s perfectly natural with very matt paint to see a slight surface texture - this is what makes a matt paint matt. Whether you\'re getting more than just what\'s necessary you\'ll be able to judge for yourself once you try some alternatives but from some things I\'ve heard about GW\'s paints I would say your paints might be at least partly at fault. From your comments I\'m presuming you\'re discounting any inherent texture from the model in the case of metal castings.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
2. Is paint consistency....

Okay from your description the paints are definitely partly to blame here. There will almost always be a variation in coverage from paint to paint based on their colour - yellows and greens covering relatively poorly, black and dark colours generally covering well, light colours containing white covering fairly well etc. etc.; so, with a colour that covers well you should be able to get complete coverage of a white or black primer with three or four nice thin coats.

The \"dirty\" effect, is this a sort of streakiness so you\'re seeing colour contamination from the primer or paint below? If so then complete coverage should be able to sort it out, giving a \'clean\' slate to begin work on.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
Most often I load the brush just out of the lid of the tub. I always add maybe 2ml of paint thinner to all my new paints and a couple of little stones to help shake them up....

Okay first off, paint thinner?

Second, if you\'re aiming for a high finish (not just painting the army) this isn\'t thin enough for all painting, although it could be fine for undercoating. As a rule I would recommend that you not paint from the container for a couple of reasons; after shaking transfer some paint out of the jar onto a palette of some kind and then add drops of water to it there. Apart from keeping the paint in the jar at as close to the starting consistency as possible by not leaving it open to evaporate for lengthy periods you\'ll reduce the risk of contamination from dust and other things in the air.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
It seems by the time I add enough layers (maybe 4) to get a consistent coat, it\'s so thick, chalky and \"globby\" I may as well just have done it with one thick coat....

Different painters work in different ways here but one thing you might try is to thin the paint for undercoats just enough for brushing consistency, so you can sort of \'float\' on an opaque layer that will shrink when it dries - the viscosity to aim for is about that of thin cream. With the right colour you can get practically single-coat coverage this way.

I think this is unlikely but your brushes may partly be to blame here; if you\'re not using smooth-haired brushes they will naturally impart some texture to the paint.

Your painting technique might be a cause too; you may be overworking the paint as you apply it. With the fast drying of acrylic and vinyl paints you have to try not to brush over areas that have partly dried as you\'ll disturb small bits of dry paint and they\'ll show up as blobs in the finish.

Try a test here: prime something that\'s perfectly flat like a sheet of plastic card. When it\'s dry get a colour that naturally covers well and thin it just enough to make it brush - might be fine straight from the container - take a larger brush (a #2 at least, I often undercoat with a #4) load it well with paint and using the side of the bristles gently swish the paint on in a continuous smooth action then leave it alone until it dries. If you do this and you see any blobs or roughness they\'re in the paint itself and it has nothing to do with your technique.

Einion

 

[vincegamer]

Let us know what type/brand of paint you are using.

Some poorer paints will be chalky.

I don\'t have chalky issues with Vallejo, Citadel or Armory paints but do sometimes with Delta Ceramcoat.

Also, what are you priming with. Does it look rough or chalky after priming and before painting?

From an earlier thread about using tap water, I hear calcium in the water can cause chalkiness so use distilled water only.

Finally, it takes tons of patience, but to get the smoothest results you need to do about 6 layers of a color to get even coverage - more if you are going over a darker color.

Oh, and I like the hobgoblin. Nice nose.

 

[Rhode]

Sorry to take over your topic, but i dont want to do another topic for similar problem i ask mine here. I hope this doesnt bother you.

I use Vallejo Model Colors, and have quite a strange problem with them. My highlight/shading layers leave these huge white areas. Basecoat is thinned 1/1 water/paint and highlights (which make this effect) are done 3/1 water/paint drop. Base coat is either Cadmium Maroon or Red, highlighted with 2/1 basecoat/highlight color. Citadel paints dont do this. I\'d like to point out that i do not leave the layer pooling at all and i have tried shaking the shiat out of the bottles, no difference. What am i doing wrong? Picture, look at the \"highlights\" on the skirt.

I have also tried 5/1 water/paint and 7/1 water/paint, cant help it.

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6149/prob9xf.jpg

 

[Wolf_Fang]

well first of all you apear to be a bit better then me... secondly every one seems to have already commented... but o wel... heres my thoughts...

could be the primer.. the humidy could effect this and where you paint. could be some paint is drying before it hits or dust hits the wet paint.

try a different paint? i use repro pro paints.. here they cost less and i think they work better. also i dont think they are less glossy (good for skin tones and clothes and all that) how ever on armour i think a slightly glossy look is a little better? (marines and such) however i still prefere the reaper stuff.

as said never use it right out of the pot. put some on a pallet and add water so it becomes a milk like consistancy (the milk from a cow you drink)

for priming theres a few way...

solid - black or white

2 colour - black with white sprayed ontop after the black dries to show where to highlight it

nuetral - a simple solid grey (can also show highlights depending on the shade of grey and the mini)

 

[Ikaponthus]

Thanks for your replies guys, it\'s been of some help (but I can\'t tell how much until I start experimenting with your suggestions!).

I have big problems with using palettes (which is why I use out of the tub). First off, the paint dries way too quickly. Even when I thin it right down it seems to have tried to a thicker consistency within minutes and totally within about 30 minutes. I just don\'t know how anyone can paint like that!! What are you guys doing, taking out more paint and putting it on to your palette every 5 minutes? Or maybe I\'m just being stingy and trying to preserve my paint stock by only using a little bit at a time (thus it dries quickly). I\'d like to hear about what you guys do regarding this. Also, I might have to try making a wet palette.

My paints are GW Citadel colours. I have got quite a nice collection going so I don\'t want to switch paints (I would have to order them from the Internet as no other good brands are sold locally).

Vincegamer,

I\'m stoked you noticed his nose! I like it too. I blended it to elf-flesh on the end of his nose and the tips of his ears. I wanted to do it on his knuckles too but decided it would be too fidly. I just wanted to give him a bit more of a human look. Otherwise all the greenskins just start to look the same.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
I have big problems with using palettes (which is why I use out of the tub). First off, the paint dries way too quickly. Even when I thin it right down it seems to have tried to a thicker consistency within minutes and totally within about 30 minutes. I just don\'t know how anyone can paint like that!!

If you\'re using any normal palette you either live with this or get into the habit of rewetting the brush with water every now and then to adjust the consistency for the evaporation This becomes second nature if you get into the habit of rinsing brushes out regularly during paint anyway.

But this is just a stopgap, after two decades of working this way I finally tried a stay-wet palette and they\'re the bees\' knees - you can literally paint for hours straight without the paint really changing and if you don\'t have really tiny amounts on the palette (which tend to flatten and dry out) and you can keep paint workable for many days of consistent painting.

I once left one of my stay-wets uncovered by accident for most of a day and almost all the pools of paint were still just fine! There is a problem when covered up for storage where any puddle of paint will tend to go to a very fluid consistency no matter what they started at, due to drawing water up from the reservoir paper/sponge, but it\'s a small price to pay IMO and there are some things you can do to avoid it if you really have to.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
Or maybe I\'m just being stingy and trying to preserve my paint stock by only using a little bit at a time (thus it dries quickly).

Nothing wrong with that, I\'m a right stinge where paint is concerned and it always bugged me all the waste you get naturally from paint that ends up dried on the palette and not where it\'s supposed to be!

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
My paints are GW Citadel colours. I have got quite a nice collection going so I don\'t want to switch paints (I would have to order them from the Internet as no other good brands are sold locally).

Where are you based? You might consider trying Jo Sonja\'s paints (the ones in the cream-coloured plastic tubes) they\'re pretty good and price-wise there\'s just no comparison with any tubs of hobby paint. You can get them in Dick Blick and some other places if you\'re in the US, plus you could order from them online if you wanted to, with the attendant savings.

Einion

 

[Ikaponthus]

Cheers mate, I\'m in Australia.

I\'ll have to give one of those stay-wet palette things a go for sure. I\'m convinced the temperates down here don\'t help my paint staying wet as well! I guess most painters are from Europe and the UK. I\'ve painted outdoors on a blistering hot day (for the light) where the paint almost seems to dry on the brush before I can even get it to the mini. Big problems. Hehehe. But maybe the stay-wet palette thing is the answer (or maybe just no painting on scorching summer days!)

 

[Fizl]

Some retarder like liquitex slow dri might make it last a bit longer too

Shaz

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
Cheers mate, I\'m in Australia.

Right, the Jo Sonja paints should be widely available there - Chroma.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
I\'ll have to give one of those stay-wet palette things a go for sure.

Definitely worth trying. A sealable plastic container - any Tupperware clone - a sheet of kitchen paper and baking parchment (or strong tracing paper) and you\'re in business.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
...the paint almost seems to dry on the brush before I can even get it to the mini.

Yep, that can sure happen, particularly if you\'re using a very small brush.

Einion

 

[Ikaponthus]

On a semi-related matter, another reason I hate using palettes is that when the paint drys and you put more paint on top of it, the new paint picks of specks of the old, dried paint. Do you wash them after each use or something?

Regarding the paint retarder, I have some already, but I have fairly big problems with it. Even using a little bit seems to give the paint some very strange properties. When I\'m painting highlights with paint-retarded paint, It seems to liquify and rub off the layer underneith, even when it\'s already dried!!! This causes a swirly, ugly mix of colours and totally ruins the whole model as soon as it happens once. I dunno what this is all about. Maybe I have to let the layer underneith dry for hours before painting on it!? And that\'s even with the tiniest amount in (maybe 15:1 paint:retarder).

Thanks Einion!

All the wet palettes I have read about use a compressed sponge and wet palette paper. I guess you get the latter at an art store - what about the sponge? Hardware store???

But your method seems to use neither ... can you let me know the details?

 

[QuietiManes]

I washed my palette whenever I ran out of clean space to mix paint on. I found using floor tiles nice for this as the paint doesnt stick so bad to the glossy surface of a ceramic tile, plus you can scrub it with steel wool for hours and not scratch it in the slightest, unlike plastic palettes...ugh. I use a wet palette I bought at the art store nowadays though.

No idea what\'s happening with your retarder there. Maybe some reaction with the thinner you use? After a couple minutes I can paint over the previous layer on my minis, but my paint is very thin, if you\'re painting right out of the cap it might take substantially longer. Thicker layer and retarder can really multiply that timeframe.

You can get wet palette paper and the sponge and the container at an art store. OR you can substitute all the above and get it from the grocery store. Parchment paper almost = wet palette paper (the problem with the substitutes is that after a few days in the wet palette they start to break down from the moisture and you can get bits of paper in your brush, not a problem if you wont leave it in there that long), sponge is a sponge although the thinner the better I\'d imagine 1/2\" would be good, container can be a Glad tupperware sandwich container.

Speaking of paint brands, have you tried your home grown Derivan Minis? Havent been able to track down an unbiased review of them yet but the site looks very tempting.

http://www.matisse.com.au/pages/miniscolour.htm
http://www.matisse.com.au/images/DMinisColour1.gif

 

[Fizl]

REgarding your retarder - I don\'t know what brand you use, but mine i mix about 10% retarder/water ratio into a bottle and then use drips of that to water down my paints. This gives me alot of open time.

Shaz

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
Thanks Einion!

Welcome, glad to try to help.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
On a semi-related matter, another reason I hate using palettes is that when the paint drys and you put more paint on top of it, the new paint picks of specks of the old, dried paint.

Then don\'t do that

Personally I\'ve never really used commercial palettes, for most of the last 20 years I used a Perspex sheet to mix on (on permanent loan from my school lol) and I would scrape this clean before mixing or thinning new paint because I mix with a steel painting knife and that really picks up dried paint! I now mix on a glazed ceramic tile since it\'s easier to clean (glass is excellent too) - just using a single-edged razor blade in a pushing action and dried paint just comes off like butter.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
Regarding the paint retarder, I have some already, but I have fairly big problems with it. Even using a little bit seems to give the paint some very strange properties.

As a rule I would be careful about using retarders and some blending mediums too, too much is definitely a bad idea, which is why it\'s important to stick to each manufacturer\'s specific proportional recommendations. They\'re well worth trying if you can afford it because they might help the way you paint and hands-on is the only way to know for sure either way.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
When I\'m painting highlights with paint-retarded paint, It seems to liquify and rub off the layer underneith, even when it\'s already dried!!! This causes a swirly, ugly mix of colours and totally ruins the whole model as soon as it happens once.

Sounds like there\'s too much in it, interfering with the binder.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
I dunno what this is all about. Maybe I have to let the layer underneith dry for hours before painting on it!? And that\'s even with the tiniest amount in (maybe 15:1 paint:retarder).

Although acrylic and vinyl paints do cure for longer than the drying time (~72 hours for full strength in a thinnish coat) generally if you\'re painting like we do you should be able to paint over pretty much instantly without lifting so if something is interfering with this then it might be best not to use it. One thing that some sources recommend is to mix retarder into your thinning water, although at high dilution I\'m really not sure how much help they might give; might be an idea to try a side-by-side comparison.

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
All the wet palettes I have read about use a compressed sponge and wet palette paper. I guess you get the latter at an art store - what about the sponge? Hardware store???

The commercial ones are a bit different from the low-tech handmade variety

Litterally all you need is what I listed:
kitchen paper (although some of my friends use a thin sponge that comes in sheets anything really that can act as a reservoir for the water, even heavy craft paper would probably work fine);
something to act as a semi-permeable membrane (tracing parchments are supposed to work really well, some of them are apparently very strong);
a plastic container to lay them in, preferably one with a tight lid so you can close it off for storage.

Einion

 

[Ikaponthus]

I just can\'t say enough for wet palettes. Solved all my problems in one fell swoop. I\'m sure it\'s going to end up being one of those things I wonder how I ever did without. And the amount of paint you must save in the long run would be huge. I\'m still painting with the first blob I put down 3 hours ago ... still excellent consistency. And all I have is a sheet of baking paper over a couple of moist sponges in a plastic container...!

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Ikaponthus
I just can\'t say enough for wet palettes.... I\'m sure it\'s going to end up being one of those things I wonder how I ever did without.

That\'s exactly how I feel about them - I\'m kicking myself I didn\'t try one earlier.

Great to hear it\'s working for you.

Einion