Rating Children\'s Minis

[paintwidow]

Originally posted by finn17

Originally posted by supervike
The Juniors idea is a very cool idea.

I have only voted on over 4000 images on this site and I don\'t think I have come across more than 4 or 5 minis, possibly less, that were overtly \'childrens\'. I don\'t suspect therefore that CA is likely to want to spent his valuable time setting up a special section for such a small number.

I think this is especially so as it will inevitably generate a \'What is a junior debate\'. Under 8?...10? 11?

Also, historical, fantasy, SF etc are categories which are self-evident. There is always going to be someone who will upset the applecart by posting in the wrong section just for the hell of it.

Why stick at age? Why not have beginner, intermediate and advanced categories?

How about a disabled section. I am aware of a couple of people on this site who have disabilities. Should their work be considered differently?

Sorry, finn, I really have to disagree with some of that.. I really think it would be worth the effort to set up a new category...then we could rate these minis appropriately, and these kids could feel great about their work, and would be encouraged to continue in this hobby that we all love. Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I don\'t believe that Terrain has always been a category, so obviously some flexibility is present. And I don\'t think we would have to debate what age can and can\'t post in a kid\'s category....if you think you belong there, post it there. Nobody\'s gonna say, \"Hey, that\'s too good for a 7 year old. I think you\'re a poser.\"lol Besides, you\'re not going get to get an honest opinion of what people think of your mini if you post in the kid\'s category just to get a good rating.

As far as upsetting the apple cart goes, I\'ve already seen several minis posted in the wrong spots now, like a space marine categorized as historicallol.

And I think you were just showing us to what extremes it could be taken with the disabled example, but I don\'t believe any of the painting contests have a Disabled category (or Inept, dauber lol), whereas they do have a juniors.

It\'s just an idea, and I\'m not seriously campaigning for it; I just think this opinion should be looked at too.

Originally posted by finn17At the end of the day a proud parent has submitted a picture by his daughter, and we should all be happy about all the good things that represents instead of getting het up about those that gave \'subjectively\' low scores and those who gave \'subjectively\' high scores

Most of this I can agree with, except for the part about \"getting het up\". This is a fun sharing of opinions, that\'s all.:innocent:

 

[finn17]

You are right...but...

Originally posted by paintwidow
Most of this I can agree with, except for the part about \"getting het up\". This is a fun sharing of opinions, that\'s all.:innocent:

In two recent, \'fun sharing of opinions\' some members saw fit to remove their images and depart from the site.
I also assume no one asked the the person concerned whether we could discuss his submissions in public. Whilst we may be speaking in general terms, an actual example has been cited and there may be things that have been, or could be, said that could cause offense.

I would certainly have no objection to a CMON creche. Provided I could filter it out.:bouncy:

 

[Pellimore]

Tabletop Quality

I haven\'t been a keen poster to the forums lately, mainly due to time, but I thought this was a good topic to throw in a little opinion.

Now, I\'m not one to debate age (being only 16 myself, I\'d favor the child too much).

But, I do find it worth posting to remind everyone about \"tabletop quality.\" I\'ve heard it mentioned a few times that the mini isn\'t \"tabletop quality.\" Well, obviously anyone who thinks that hasn\'t been gaming for a while and spent a little too much time looking at Grand Tournament armys and considering them \"tabletop quality.\"

I\'ll use an example to show true tabletop quality. At the last Warhammer 40k tournament we had 30 players. Of those 5 armys weren\'t painted (fully painted, some had a few models done). 4 more armys were painted, but not past the base coat. On top of that, 6 armys that were painted consisted of primer, a drybrush layer, and metal paint (including one that was painted the orange of safety cones and drybrushed bright silver, it was funny to see on the tabletop). Now, simple math will tell you that even a basic paintjob (like the girls) will get you into the average tabletop quality. Not to mention, this was a tournament and far past the paintjobs that show up weekly.

Now, I\'m not saying that the mini isn\'t getting a bias (hell I wouldn\'t mind one myself ), and CMON has always scored lower than true tabletop quality. I just want you guys to think before you start deeming things to be lower than tabletop quality.

Worst comes to worst, I\'ll just use the pony as a Daemon in my showcase Grand Tournament army. Then you\'ll have no arguement. lollollol

Have fun,
Pellimore

 

[idahoan]

sheesh

All right already, I\'ll pipe in...
First let me say that my daughter turned 7 years old this past week. She still paints but is more interested in animals rather than fantasy or futuristic themes.

We did not get into posting for the scores. She just wanted to see her pics on a real live bonafied web site. And she loves the comments. We discussed her quality compared to mine and others. Take my word, if you have kids it can be tough building confidence without being phony, but in the end, that\'s the only way to do it. As a sidebar: She is currently working hard at getting her Yellow belt in Karate. She is not quite ready, but the teacher is prepared to promote the kids even if they have not perfected teh moves. This infuriates me. What a shallow victory it would be to be handed a belt without truly passing a test. Too much of that crap going on in schools today. Teachers afraid of whiny parents...

Well, I\'m no whiner. You voters please call \'em like you see \'em.

When she finishes a mini she is very happy with it, then she sees one that I painted and gets down on herself. This is where I have to explain that good results come from hard work and practice, and I show her my first mini, and how her skills can improve just like mine. She is still motivated to improve, and has not given up.

As far as those folks whining about scores, boo hoo. You\'re right about my baby\'s scores being overinflated out of pity, but the whole voting system is flawed. I\'m no Haley or Wong but it totally bleeps me off when I post a pic that I rate an \"8\" and two votes later I see my overall rating at \"4\". I will let my work speak for itself, you can check my ability level at anytime if you think I\'m out of line. Too many trolls around here and I think people should be accountable for their votes.

Anyway...Thanks to all who leave helpful comments. I know it\'s tough to be nice AND critical at the same time. But we appreciate your efforts.

 

[Pellimore]

I hate to put out two posts, especially so close to each other, but I had a great idea...

Idahoan, put in the description of you \"Prince Tyrion NMM\" that your 5-year-old-daughter painted it in one afternoon when she was bored and see what people say.

lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol

Have fun!
Pellimore

BTW, I love the way you worked with the gold, very nice.

 

[idahoan]

Originally posted by Pellimore
I hate to put out two posts, especially so close to each other, but I had a great idea...

Idahoan, put in the description of you \"Prince Tyrion NMM\" that your 5-year-old-daughter painted it in one afternoon when she was bored and see what people say.

lollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollollol

Have fun!
Pellimore

BTW, I love the way you worked with the gold, very nice.

GREAT IDEA! Maybe I\'ll save it for my CMON amazon entry.:idea:

 

[Flashman14]

the cold, callous hand of Scrooooooggggeeee

For me it\'s about the Mini, the Mini, the Mini. It\'a not about time, or effort, or self esteem building or anything like that but rather, at the end of the day, how does that mini look: Cool or not? I don\'t reward effort but rather result.

The Beginnger, Intermediate and Advanced categories are an ok way to iron out some things but I would firmly resist changing my voting style to compensate for painter status. I don\'t want to think on every vote: \"For a blind person that mini is X\" or \"For the pensioner class that mini deserves an X\"
If I see an 8 mini it will always be an 8, a 5 is a 5 etc . . .

 

[ZeCorto]

Having a 5 year old painter ...

I have posted one of his minis
http://www.coolminiornot.com/?id=17349
and I\'m amazed at the score it got. One very pertinent comment is that he should not be given 8 because it would leave him no room for improvement and it\'s very true.
And besides, I would greatly dislike him getting a better score than me !lol
I think it should be scored in the 2-3 area, for what it\'s worth (metal showing through, no clear line, ...) so that he can see his score going up when he\'s older)

 

[supervike]

Nail. Head. Hit. Right on.

Originally posted by ZeCorto
I would greatly dislike him getting a better score than me !lol

This is why I probably won\'t post my daughters\' handiwork!!!

I would never hear the end of that.

Them: \"we paint better than daddy, nana nana na na\"

me: \"BEDTIME! get going!\"
:flame:

They already rule everything in the house as it is. I am keeping the \"king-painter\" mantel for as long as I can....lollol

 

[dauber22]

Slightly OT, I guess, But...

I think i\'m the only one here who actually has a kid who\'s posted here. In fact, he\'s the one that got me addicted to this #%$#@ site
Now, he\'s not 5: he\'s in his teens. but I don\'t think he\'d want his minis graded any differrently because he\'s younger. He\'s looking to improve.
(BTW one of the biggest improvements would be if I could buy him a digital camera, but HEY! if I can\'t afford one for me, I can\'t afford one for him) At least he\'s got a scanner so he can post, which puts him ahead of me

 

[johnboyjjb]

Originally posted by dauber22
buy him a digital camera, but HEY! if I can\'t afford one for me, I can\'t afford one for him)

EBAY! $30 you can get the same camera i was selling at work for $250 2 years ago. I don\'t find this a viable excuse. You probably spend more than that on minis in a month.:duh:

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by johnboyjjbEBAY! $30 you can get the same camera i was selling at work for $250 2 years ago. I don\'t find this a viable excuse. You probably spend more than that on minis in a month.:duh:

You know, don\'t take personal offense at this but:

1) I hear these tales of super cheap cameras all the time, but when I go to EBay the only things I find that don\'t look like they came in a cereal box are WELL over $100. To me, a chintzy digital camera is worse than a disposable film camera. I had a not-cheap-but old-now cdigital camera and I could have DRAWN better pictures!

2) Isn\'t it amazing how easy it is to spend someone else\'s money?

 

[Vidja]

Now, I know it souinds bad, but I just HATE when parents post their kids\' stuff and actually ask for reviews... I mean, I\'m all for encouraging young talents, but it would be far better to post the pic on the parent\'s own site (or in any web gallery); that would save other reviewers the embarassing need to either bash a kid\'s efforts, or lying and be unfair to adult painters.

A friend of mine built a program once for a Harry Potter fan site, it was one of those virtual Sorting Hats that give you a few questions to answer, and then sort you into one of Hogwart\'s houses... he told me that he had invested much time in creating it, and yet, it looked very simple.
He explained to me that the program itself was easy; the difficult part was inserting a \"cheat mode\" which would allow parents to have their kids sorted into Gryffindor, whatever their answers to the test - \'cause of course the toddlers would go mad if they weren\'t sent into the same house as Harry Potter.

So, it seems that many people feel that cheating a bit is allowed if children are concerned... I must say I do not completely agree. But then, who wants to have to deal with an enraged kid?

 

[idahoan]

Originally posted by Vidja
Now, I know it souinds bad, but I just HATE when parents post their kids\' stuff and actually ask for reviews...

Parents can preach and teach until they\'re blue in the face but sometimes a child won\'t take suggestions or compliments to heart unless they come from someone else. We are trying have fun with this site and also trying to improve our painting skills while at the same time encouraging others to get involved and share their work. What\'s to \'HATE\'????

 

[Vidja]

The fact that you have to use two different scales when judging kids\' stuff and adults\'... and the fact that this different set of criteria could easily be misused (like, what if I say that my minis rating 6 have been painted by my little cousin? Would that make them worth a 8, or more? Then I can simply delete the reference to the age of the painter, et voilà, I\'m one of the top 50...)

 

[dauber22]

Considering the voluminous number of pictures on this site and the miniscule number posted by or on behalf of children, \"Hate\" seems a little strong. And if yhou really find it that offensive, there IS a \"skip to the next post\" button.

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by Vidja
Then I can simply delete the reference to the age of the painter, et voilà, I\'m one of the top 50...)

I think the chance of this is a bit remote, don\'t you? And it would certainly be sniffed out by those here pretty quickly I believe. And, unless I\'m mistaken, there\'s no great big monetary reward or anything for being in the Top 50. The victory would be rather hollow, wouldn\'t it?

 

[slidedog]

Rating Kids

This is a bit of a tough subject but I think in most cases a kid that is of an age to actually want and seek an opinion is ready to handle it. When a parent posts their kid\'s stuff, is it for the kid ,or for the parent. I know my son (now age 12) didn\'t want much feedback when we first started painting together, but as his awareness of what quality looks like rises so does his desire for feedback. At this point he is much more ready to take criticism as it\'s intended and try something new. If he ever posts here (that\'s up to him), he will want an honest apraisal so that he can learn, just like most of the adults.

If a kid wants his stuff up (and I don\'t think a 5 year old cares one way or the other) score it honestly, but make good helpful comments about what works, and ideas for improvement. Just think of a young kid learning all of that and in a few years scoring with the best of the adults, that\'s an accomplishment! And this community would have helped that happen! Many kids have so much handed to them that they never get to experience what it is to truly work hard and accomplish something!

Sorry to be so long winded, new to the board and I had something to say..... I think I\'ll go paint!

 

[idahoan]

Originally posted by Vidja
The fact that you have to use two different scales when judging kids\' stuff and adults\'...

Who says you have to use two different scores? Even my daughter is adult enough to realize that scores and polls are meaningless. What we want is constuctive criticism. I mention her age to let others know that there is a growing community of painters, that comments should be geared toward a child\'s comprehension level, and to differentiate her work from mine.

If anyone has a problem with the scores, just troll my posts and vote \'1\' repeatedly until your ideal of fairness is achieved. People do that all the time. I know some folks love doing that sort of thing to competing auctions, so it\'s nothing new and I\'ve given up on worrying about scores.

Honestly, I know her stuff is not a \'10\'. I don\'t go around bragging about how my girl is the next Haley. I have enough experience to know that the scoring here at CMON is a joke because of all the trolls and the lack of accountability. This is a great site and the scoring aspect of it plays a minor role in feeding the interests of modellers and painters.

 

[Vidja]

Of course I know that the score is not the real point, but somehow I don\'t feel so optimistical... I mean, saying that a kid painted a mini to pump up its score is no more silly than using Photoshop to make it look cooler, or entering someone else\'s miniature bought on eBay, yet we all know that these things do happen.
The sad thing is, it\'s adults who cheat this way, not kids... I\'d almost say that kids have a better understanding of what really matters, or maybe simply have better moral fibers, were it not for the \"GD fraud\" discussion in the first forum...