Remove gallery scoring system

[yxalitis]

I don't think the gallery scoring system works, it's all too arbitrary, the voters are mostly random people without judging experience, and there certainly is no consistency, well, certainly not to allow for scores accurate to a decimal place.
Yes, 9 and 10's are usually brilliant, and 1's and 2's often quite poor, but look around the middle field, and there is simply no rhyme or reason to the scores applied.
The very same figure photographed twice in the same manner, can get wildly different scores, a 6 can be better then an 8, and so on.
Now, if a judging panel applied a set of criteria to score the submissions, we might get a more useful scoring system but as that isn't really feasible..well, why bother at all?
This will cause all sorts of outrage I am sure, but think, why do people come here, to look at nice minis, and get some feedback on their efforts.
A simple post in "discuss submissions" will meet the second need, and the gallery is still here for the first.

Scenario 1.
Some kid posts his proud work here for all to see, and it's a poor effort, so he gets a 2.3 on the gallery.
Disgruntled, and having no feedback whatsoever, he throws away his paints, and swears off minis for life.

Scenario 2.
Same kid posts the same work, but as there is no score he has to ask for opinions in the forum, there he gets told that he needs work, but shows promise.
he tries harder, learns, and in a few years is posting great works.

I just don't see what having a 0.0 to 10.0 range of scores achieves.
I think that if you want to vote for a mini, you should have to make a comment, but almost no-one comments with their vote, especially on the lower scored minis, which is arguably where the comments are more needed.

Yes, we have the forums, yes we have helpful poster who offer all sorts of advice, so why do we need a silly, somewhat random scoring system?

Just get rid of it altogether!

Dons flame suit and fire-retardant underwear...

 

[Avelorn]

I don't the issue is that people vote random but rather that too few people vote. Therefor the scores get easily skewed by people posting on blogs and having more friends then others. So If more people (including I) would vote more often the scores would be less random.

 

[kathrynloch]

Even opinions of those with judging experience can vary wildly.

The good thing about voting is audience participation. It's not just looking at minis like every other site, but being able to give your opinion whether it be a number or comment.

 

[yxalitis]

Even opinions of those with judging experience can vary wildly.

The good thing about voting is audience participation. It's not just looking at minis like every other site, but being able to give your opinion whether it be a number or comment.

Except here, it's more about ePeen points and being harsh to make yourself look knowledgeable.
You can give an opinion more fluently with a few lines, then a '6' with no comment

 

[Einion]

I don't think the gallery scoring system works, it's all too arbitrary, the voters are mostly random people without judging experience, and there certainly is no consistency, well, certainly not to allow for scores accurate to a decimal place.

As has been said before, it is what it is. It's best not to take the scores too seriously, even at best this is a popularity contest - both for the submission and the entrant.

Personally my only major objection with the scoring is commercial pieces (greens primarily, but also auction pieces) with scores that are very obviously inflated.

But even if there were nothing dodgy about the voting on any entry in the galleries, something popular from say 2005 will now have a score that it wouldn't get today. So any of the scores here have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Yes, 9 and 10's are usually brilliant, and 1's and 2's often quite poor, but look around the middle field, and there is simply no rhyme or reason to the scores applied.
The very same figure photographed twice in the same manner, can get wildly different scores, a 6 can be better then an 8, and so on.

According to whom? Remember someone else might genuinely prefer that 8.

Many people, including myself, agree that there are often scoring anomalies - see numerous previous threads - but there are a great many reasons for others to vote higher than you think is right (talking about legit votes here, not shill voting or buddy voting).

Even opinions of those with judging experience can vary wildly.

Exactly so. This isn't just speculation, I can confirm this both as a judge and entrant where I've seen the scoring sheets.

yxalitis, how's this for consistency ensured by a set of criteria applied by an experienced judging panel: I once got a gold score from one judge, a commended from another - that's five scoring brackets apart.

Einion

 

[yxalitis]

Funny, all the responses admit issues with the scoring, but none offer any solution, or any reason to keep it...If it "is what is it" then what's it for?

" It's best not to take the scores too seriously" then why bother with them?
"So any of the scores here have to be taken with a pinch of salt." Agreed, again, why use them, why are they there?
"Remember someone else might genuinely prefer that 8." yes, opinions vary wildly...so what's the point>?
"The good thing about voting is audience participation" No, not really, a blind score with no comment serve no purpose, a COMMENT does. So, ditch scores, only allow comments.
"being able to give your opinion whether it be a number or comment." A number gives no information, nothing, its a blind, useless thing, a comment can communicate so much more.
"too few people vote" there is no solution to that, other then to scrap it all together
"scores get easily skewed by people posting on blogs and having more friends then others." Yes, another reason to scrap them altogether

Every comment seems to be struggling to justify scoring, Why, it serves no purpose!

All replies so far are actually all reasons to abandon it!

Please people: think outside the box, accept the concept of change, embrace a new system.

 

[10 ball]

The scoring on CMON has pushed me to improve my painting. Ive shouted at the computer many times when I see a GD finalist get a 5 when its got to be well over a 7 - 8 to be a finalist.
People see things all different that's the beauty of art. (im not a fan of Picasso but I reckon he would not be a fan of mine either

I was proud of myself when I got my first 8 and im not to too proud to say it :brushwave:

 

[kittykat23uk]

I used to visit CMON a lot a few years ago when I was really into painting. I enjoyed voting and commenting on the minis I saw. I think the voting system is useful for sorting through minis if you are looking for inspriation. For example, I searched for Black dragons in the upper score range of around 7 to 10 to ge inspiration for a project. So it does have a use.

 

[me_in_japan]

I agree with kittykat - the scores serve as an effective filter when youre searching for inspiration or examples. Also, as you say, 9s and 10s are pretty much always good, so if you can achieve that score you know that you've incontrovertibly painted a good mini. I agree that the range between a 6 and an 8 is pretty murky at times, but I think that's something that has to be expected with something as subjective as giving art a score. I think it can be viewed more as:

9-10 job's a good un. You are one of the elite. Get yourself an ivory tower to live in
6-8 shows promise.
3-5 a solid start
1-2 try harder

I dont think it should be a simple 4 step range as I showed there, though, as people need some kind of scale-within-a-scale. As long as we accept there's a bit of wiggle room, I think the current system works ok.

 

[Avelorn]

Funny, all the responses admit issues with the scoring, but none offer any solution, or any reason to keep it...If it "is what is it" then what's it for?

" It's best not to take the scores too seriously" then why bother with them?
"So any of the scores here have to be taken with a pinch of salt." Agreed, again, why use them, why are they there?
"Remember someone else might genuinely prefer that 8." yes, opinions vary wildly...so what's the point>?
All of the above: Because it's not about dismissing them all together, just not taking them too seriously. A big difference
"The good thing about voting is audience participation" No, not really, a blind score with no comment serve no purpose, a COMMENT does. So, ditch scores, only allow comments.
It does, with comments you'll get a lot of yes-sayers. Going by my comments every mini I've done these last years are a 9's or 10's
"being able to give your opinion whether it be a number or comment." A number gives no information, nothing, its a blind, useless thing, a comment can communicate so much more.
It does, regardless that they are somewhat skewed it gives information of what the average people think of your miniatures.
"too few people vote" there is no solution to that, other then to scrap it all together
The solution is getting more people to vote
"scores get easily skewed by people posting on blogs and having more friends then others." Yes, another reason to scrap them altogether
No. As I said the solution is getting more people to vote

Every comment seems to be struggling to justify scoring, Why, it serves no purpose!

All replies so far are actually all reasons to abandon it!
Just something is not perfect there is no reason to abandon it. Think democracy.

Please people: think outside the box, accept the concept of change, embrace a new system.

Ehm. No?

 

[AndyG]

The main difference for coolminiornot compared to other mini sites is that it is a voting site hey it's even in the name. People are competitive by nature I know I am so when I got my first 7 it made me seriously pleased and well when I got my first eight :dance:

It did and still does make me work harder but I know the voting system doesn't work properly but to paraphrase why do I do it because it's the only game in town!

The bit about getting more people to vote yes we do but I don't think there will be any major incentive to do,this until the number of people hitting the site starts to realy decline becaused of it. And I don't think we're any where near that yet.

So

1 voting matters
2 use the forums to get feed back
3 make sure you vote yourself

 

[freakinacage]

Meh, the only thing I would do to change it is add 0.5 difference. Because people are voting, it's going to vary. I could see a mini one day and vote it a 7, and and 8 the day after. People are as people do and that's before you bring the whole politics of it. If I want to know how people feel, the vote gives me a rough idea and the people on the forums give me proper feedback

 

[kathrynloch]

My experience with "judging" comes not only from the miniature world but my years growing up and riding the rails at horse shows. We were judged by standardized criteria and each show was basically the same, only the judges changed. From 9 years old through 17 years, I rode, trained and worked hard. I could ride at one show and win the moon, then the following weekend do the exact same thing and get the gate every class. Sometimes riders could get a critique from the judge but most often you never got any feedback. There were highs and lows, lots of laughter and lots of tears. But on those days when I got the gate and I felt my parents had just wasted a ton of money I didn't throw my tack in the trash and sell my horse, I kept working, kept improving.

That experience helps me keep my feet on the ground in situations such as these. Yes, there are times when I post a mini and grouse about the low score. But eventually things level out. Would it have helped to get a critique from every judge I showed under? Most certainly. But that's not the way the world works. Sometimes you have to figure it out for yourself and try different things. Do some people get frustrated and toss it in the trash? Yup, but they would probably do the same if they received two contradictory critiques - especially from the same person! (Which I've had happen in showing too!)

CMON just celebrated its 10 year anniversary, I've been a member here for 8. Throughout, voting has been an integral part of the site's identity and I doubt that's going to change any time soon. You're not the first to want to see it trashed and you certainly won't be the last. I personally like the voting aspect now that I have a better grasp of the entire deal. Just like those horse showing days years ago, on some things I do well, other things I get the gate. I learn how to adjust and adapt and continue to work hard. Along the way my painting improves and I learn how to fit in the voting, even the times when it seems nonsensical, in to my personal gauge.

It is what it is...because that's what it is.

 

[Einion]

Funny, all the responses admit issues with the scoring, but none offer any solution...

I'm going to presume that you haven't looked back and read through all the previous threads on the subject of voting. They, er, go back a bit. I'd strongly recommend you do that; it'll take you a couple of hours.

If the scores were taken away the efforts of thousands of people going back 10 years would be invalidated. That would be one thing if the site were going away taking the scores with it, it's quite another for an on-going entity. Surely you realise the site was built upon the post-for-votes system, it didn't come after?

"Remember someone else might genuinely prefer that 8." yes, opinions vary wildly...so what's the point>?

Duude, seriously you didn't just ask that question did you?

Did you miss the point above that even amongst experienced judges opinions can vary, and wildly? Does that mean there's no point in them judging either?

A number gives no information...

:sarcastic:

...a comment can communicate so much more.

While that is true it is not a legitimate argument in support of your premise. Besides, you want to suggest how you can force more participation?

An uncomfortable truth has been pointed out before: us, all of us who post in the forums, we're the minority of the people who use the site. The regular posters (which doesn't include you) are an even tinier fraction.

"too few people vote" there is no solution to that, other then to scrap it all together

:dazed: Even fewer people comments, so by your logic there's more reason to scrap that facility!

Come on dude, think things through if you're going to post something like this.

with comments you'll get a lot of yes-sayers. Going by my comments every mini I've done these last years are a 9's or 10's

Excellent point - comments are hugely weighted towards the positive and from what I've seen the great majority (70% or more?) are high praise.

Einion

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

Meh, the only thing I would do to change it is add 0.5 difference. Because people are voting, it's going to vary. I could see a mini one day and vote it a 7, and and 8 the day after. People are as people do and that's before you bring the whole politics of it. If I want to know how people feel, the vote gives me a rough idea and the people on the forums give me proper feedback

Too true, the difference between say a 6 and a 7 and a 7 and an 8 is a whole world of difference. I have seen lots of miniatures where I'd like to give say a 7.5, but I am forced to round either up or down which is tricky for me.

Sure the voting is skewed but I'm still after my first 8 and I'd I think I'm improving. The scores are a crude but effective way of measuring improvement I think.

 

[Cedric]

Not brilliant but something to think about

I've been coming to this site since 2005, atleast that's my join date. Back then I was still on dial up at less than 26kbps, so I never voted on much. I had a lot less busier life then too. I rarely paint now but I come to the site and view how things have progressed. I never really looked at scores that much either. It's hard to judge based on photos anyway and some cheat with Photo Shop or they only give one pic and expect a 7.
I also rarely log into the site unless I really need to comment. It says I've only voted 13 times but I personally know that is not true, and I almost always make a comment.

I decided awhile a go that for myself, to get the benefits of this site for free and not do simple voting and comment is not very conducive to helping anyone or keeping this site available. So when ever I come here I vote on atleast 3 minis from games that I play or collect.

So maybe a system to implement might be those of you paying or have donated, should have there own point rating system, and then a point system for general members and maybe a system for guests.

Knowing that most of you guys that pay to be here are real "Painting- Hobbyest" and place more photos and do really good work and create the articles ETC. { Your scores would really mean more} and those in the general rating position would be a secondary importance and guests thirdly as these guys would be most likely be buffing someones posted mini for an auction.


So if I was a paying member and I log in and view someones mini and decide to vote and comment. My rating bar would appear BLUE (this might even include a .5 position on your scale). and a blue score# would appear under the "artwork info." This would insure your scores would remain appropriate to the artist and less watered down by the general score.
All the general members as now would appear RED and maybe guests would appear GREEN.
This would also give Mini posters an Idea of who is seeing and voting on their stuff particularly if comments are not being made. Also if you're a paying user your screen name could appear in blue under a voted mini lending atleast a little credit of the truthful(less biased) score. This would also give an amateur or someone with the need for a "comment help" or "AT-A-BOY" to PM those who really care about the site and the craft.

This might be way too tough to script, I've kinda lost touch with the programing side of things.

JUST MY 2¢

 

[Linz1]

I'm fairly new to this site and I love browsing and voting on the minis, I've only got two pics up but I believe that the scores I've received are a fairly good representations of my painting ability. It just makes me want to get better. I agree with Cedric, a breakdown of who's voted with an overall average would be great, oh and a .5 would make it easier.

Cheers, LinZ

 

[me_in_japan]

If you're a premium member you actually do see two separate scores for each mini. The first is general voters, the second is registered voters.

 

[alextheartist]

Thats for everyone now I think. I see two scores for everything and I'm not premium

 

[Aliengod3]

Seems like the people who achieve the most votes with the highest scores are usually the ones with great minis but also those individuals who have developed a fan club.