Something to think about
- Thread starter War Griffon
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DrEvilmonki
Active member
For the most part I see both sides being right in the arguement over Iraq.
I think the justification for the conflict was weak but now you are there it would cause far more harm to pull out.
I think the justification for the conflict was weak but now you are there it would cause far more harm to pull out.
I would advise reading the entire topic before putting your 2 cents in, Zimbabwe\'s been covered.
To paraphrase: It\'s not our responsibility.
If we\'re going to fight injustice in the world we will choose to fight the battles that benefit us.
If you want all the injustice of the world fought, look to the UN, but don\'t hold your breath while waiting for it.
Orb
procrastinator
I did. Thanks.
I know the benefit of the US stuff. Still irks me, that\'s all. Still, I haven\'t been to Iraq so can\'t comment on Iraqi\'s opinions, other than media information. There are those in Iraq who feel that things are getting similar to Saddam\'s time; factions/militias gaining control or influence over various ministeries etc.
Possible torture or human rights violations within governmental institutions......early days of course.
Anyway, ED, where are you now? is it late at night or v early morning? I still need more coffee here and should probably keep quiet til brain can engage better
I know the benefit of the US stuff. Still irks me, that\'s all. Still, I haven\'t been to Iraq so can\'t comment on Iraqi\'s opinions, other than media information. There are those in Iraq who feel that things are getting similar to Saddam\'s time; factions/militias gaining control or influence over various ministeries etc.
Possible torture or human rights violations within governmental institutions......early days of course.
Anyway, ED, where are you now? is it late at night or v early morning? I still need more coffee here and should probably keep quiet til brain can engage better
actually it\'s about 3 AM. I couldnt sleep so I decided to get up and head over to work at 4.
Lucky me I\'m salary with no set working hours.
And if the benifits irks you then this should irk you more.
The three countries that Saddam owed the most money to?
Germany, France, Russia.
The three countries most vocally arguing and threatening to veto against the war?
Germany, France, Russia.
The three countries most angry when told they didn\'t partipate so they would not get rebuilding contracts?
Germany, France, Russia.
Who was the most vocal in their protests of the war, yet nary a word spoken when Saddam was killing his own people?
Who was more worried about their benefits and their best interests?
I\'ll let you guess.
Lucky me I\'m salary with no set working hours.
And if the benifits irks you then this should irk you more.
The three countries that Saddam owed the most money to?
Germany, France, Russia.
The three countries most vocally arguing and threatening to veto against the war?
Germany, France, Russia.
The three countries most angry when told they didn\'t partipate so they would not get rebuilding contracts?
Germany, France, Russia.
Who was the most vocal in their protests of the war, yet nary a word spoken when Saddam was killing his own people?
Who was more worried about their benefits and their best interests?
I\'ll let you guess.
Astorderire
New member
Since when democracy is supposed to be the best form of governement ever?
Since when a souverain state should take decision going against its own interest to help an other country that keeps on betraying any allies it may have for more than 60 years? And for doubtious results?
Do you really think that the US internationnal policy is aimed to benefit to its voting citizens?
Since when a souverain state should take decision going against its own interest to help an other country that keeps on betraying any allies it may have for more than 60 years? And for doubtious results?
Do you really think that the US internationnal policy is aimed to benefit to its voting citizens?
Who said it was? I personally like it, the other people here seem to like it, the people of Iraq apparently really, really want to try it if you look at how their polls turned out.
Sorry, buddy, No frenchman can talk to me about betrayal, I remember Libya. France has been more of a pain in our ass than an ally for decades.
Also look at your own before you get your panties in a wad about mine.
The Ivory Coast? Your 14 day riots, the ill treatment of muslims in your country?
So what you\'re saying, is that as long as the it was in France\'s best interest to keep Saddam in power, that you didn\'t care what he did to his people.
I\'m gonna have to jump off my fence for a moment...
The above comment really hits home with why our recent \'wars\' have rubbed me the wrong way. We invaded and REMOVED the legal governments of two soveriegn nations, in both cases, because we were looking for something we NEVER FOUND. Now we say we are staying there because they deserve our form of government.
Hmmmmmmmm...
Saddam, although a tyrant, was the rightful ruler of his nation because he was THEIR KING. Although I think rulership by Divine Right is a crock of bull why is this form of government incorrect? Britain has a Queen; she would take her down too? Their governmaent isn\'t exactly like ours, so ours MUST be better... right? I know this is an extreme example, but what it boils down to is that we shouldn\'t decide that someone else\'s system is wrong because we say so. How about China? The US is VERY anti-communism yet I don\'t see us marching into there. Shouldn\'t we be spreading our perfect system to all who deserve it?
My point is, why is it up to us to decide who is right and who is wrong? Most Iraqqis lived in abject poverty and miserable unsanitary conditions. So did Mother Teresa. So was Mother Teresa a bad person because she didn\'t have a big screen TV or a PC or a fancy car? She didn\'t live like US, so I guess she must of been wrong too.
I know what you are going to say Dave... that she lived that way by choice, so there is a difference. But why is our way of life so much better? People who have less form stronger family bonds and engender an ethical and productive way of life. I\'m not talking about our own poor; I\'m talking about countries where you aren\'t given a \"free\" ride. If you don\'t work AND please your family you don\'t eat. Sounds like they are raising a better bunch of kids then the spoiled brats we have in this country. Of course, strapping bombs to them and making them run into military bases isn\'t such good parenting...
All I\'m trying to say is that our system isn\'t all that great, and maybe their system wasn\'t all that bad. Saddam killed and tortured thousands of people that he felt were behaving contrary to his government. China killed hundreds of students in Tiamin Square for the same reason. The Soviet Union invaded Latvia (Lithuania?) for the same reason. WE IMPRISONED THOUSANDS OF JAPANESE AMERICANS DURING WWII, and currently have HUNDREDS of Arad Nationals imprisoned and are being held WITHOUT CHARGES all in the interest of \"National Security\". So what\'s the difference? A government is allowed to defend itself against insurgency. If you want to compare methods... I think being executed instantly is a hell of a lot better then rotting in a prison cell forever...
The problem that we are having with this topic is that people are trying to find a right and wrong. There is none. Like I said before, there is no black and whites, just shades of grey.
This hasn\'t gotten ugly yet, but I feel it coming. Isn\'t that Ironic? A war brewing over war...
The above comment really hits home with why our recent \'wars\' have rubbed me the wrong way. We invaded and REMOVED the legal governments of two soveriegn nations, in both cases, because we were looking for something we NEVER FOUND. Now we say we are staying there because they deserve our form of government.
Hmmmmmmmm...
Saddam, although a tyrant, was the rightful ruler of his nation because he was THEIR KING. Although I think rulership by Divine Right is a crock of bull why is this form of government incorrect? Britain has a Queen; she would take her down too? Their governmaent isn\'t exactly like ours, so ours MUST be better... right? I know this is an extreme example, but what it boils down to is that we shouldn\'t decide that someone else\'s system is wrong because we say so. How about China? The US is VERY anti-communism yet I don\'t see us marching into there. Shouldn\'t we be spreading our perfect system to all who deserve it?
My point is, why is it up to us to decide who is right and who is wrong? Most Iraqqis lived in abject poverty and miserable unsanitary conditions. So did Mother Teresa. So was Mother Teresa a bad person because she didn\'t have a big screen TV or a PC or a fancy car? She didn\'t live like US, so I guess she must of been wrong too.
I know what you are going to say Dave... that she lived that way by choice, so there is a difference. But why is our way of life so much better? People who have less form stronger family bonds and engender an ethical and productive way of life. I\'m not talking about our own poor; I\'m talking about countries where you aren\'t given a \"free\" ride. If you don\'t work AND please your family you don\'t eat. Sounds like they are raising a better bunch of kids then the spoiled brats we have in this country. Of course, strapping bombs to them and making them run into military bases isn\'t such good parenting...
All I\'m trying to say is that our system isn\'t all that great, and maybe their system wasn\'t all that bad. Saddam killed and tortured thousands of people that he felt were behaving contrary to his government. China killed hundreds of students in Tiamin Square for the same reason. The Soviet Union invaded Latvia (Lithuania?) for the same reason. WE IMPRISONED THOUSANDS OF JAPANESE AMERICANS DURING WWII, and currently have HUNDREDS of Arad Nationals imprisoned and are being held WITHOUT CHARGES all in the interest of \"National Security\". So what\'s the difference? A government is allowed to defend itself against insurgency. If you want to compare methods... I think being executed instantly is a hell of a lot better then rotting in a prison cell forever...
The problem that we are having with this topic is that people are trying to find a right and wrong. There is none. Like I said before, there is no black and whites, just shades of grey.
This hasn\'t gotten ugly yet, but I feel it coming. Isn\'t that Ironic? A war brewing over war...
Originally posted by MarkusTay
This hasn\'t gotten ugly yet, but I feel it coming. Isn\'t that Ironic? A war brewing over war...
Yeah...I can feel that too. It has remained more or less civil, but as I have said on countless of these threads before...Its like banging your head against the wall. No one it going to \'switch sides\' because of a discussion on a forum. It makes for interesting reading and it is very good to see opposing viewpoints, but sometimes the overall point is lost to me...
Markus,
While I understand what you\'re trying to say, there\'s just one fact you\'re over looking.
The Iraqi people.
The Iraqi people showed up to vote even under threat of death, the Iraqi people wanted control of their destiny\'s, who doesn\'t?
Saddam had the power to make his country one of the most plentiful countries in the world, Yet his people were starving, living in hovels.
It\'s easy to commit suicide for a cause when the cause is all you have, it\'s quite another thing when you actually have things worth living for.
And the Queen of England is a figurehead, not actually a law maker anymore, the british have a democracy, as does France, as do most countries in the world.
A democracy is merely a government in which the people have a voice in their government through voting.
We\'re actually a republic that follows democracy, and capitalism. I\'m sure you could have a communist democracy, though I\'ve never heard of one.
While I understand what you\'re trying to say, there\'s just one fact you\'re over looking.
The Iraqi people.
The Iraqi people showed up to vote even under threat of death, the Iraqi people wanted control of their destiny\'s, who doesn\'t?
Saddam had the power to make his country one of the most plentiful countries in the world, Yet his people were starving, living in hovels.
It\'s easy to commit suicide for a cause when the cause is all you have, it\'s quite another thing when you actually have things worth living for.
And the Queen of England is a figurehead, not actually a law maker anymore, the british have a democracy, as does France, as do most countries in the world.
A democracy is merely a government in which the people have a voice in their government through voting.
We\'re actually a republic that follows democracy, and capitalism. I\'m sure you could have a communist democracy, though I\'ve never heard of one.
vincegamer
Active member
True!
So why are we boycottin Cuba again???
So why are we boycottin Cuba again???
vincegamer
Active member
At the rate he\'s going, I\'m not sure I\'ll still be around to see it.
vincegamer
Active member
The other scary thing of course is that when he eventually does die, he\'s just going to pass things on to his brother, so there\'s another decade or two!
Infidel Castro
New member
I reckon war should be modified so that we only ever fight hand-to-hand.
And Evil Dave, is someone who doesn\'t like fighting a \'coward\'? That\'s a bit of a lame duck my friend. Just because some people don\'t like war and fighting, it doesn\'t make them cowards. Pick your knuckles up off the floor trooper!
And Evil Dave, is someone who doesn\'t like fighting a \'coward\'? That\'s a bit of a lame duck my friend. Just because some people don\'t like war and fighting, it doesn\'t make them cowards. Pick your knuckles up off the floor trooper!
Astorderire
New member
If our countries have ever be allied, cher ami, if countries can be allies in fact... what became the medal given to Henri Ford by Nazis? How is Texaco? Dupont? Countries or States or whatever are just amoral entities with no honor, no loyalty nor memeory, tools I\'m afraid.
What I tried to say is that I don\'t understand how disposing Hussein could benefit to the average US citizen.
What if in Irak they elect someone even more crazy than the previous one? Your solders will have to protect him in the name of democracy? Mabe they won\'t be given the choice to elect who they want... what a democratic comfort!
By the way I see you are very well informed of the mistreatment of muslims ( by the way I suspect any other religion is also baddly treated around here) in France, do you know that the riots that made so many deaths are not related to religious subjects?
Frankly I don\'t understand how someone can be proud of the silly animal that is drawn on his passport: you don\'t choose your place of birth, and unless you spend a lot of energy in investigating, you\'ll never get the information that enable you to make the right political vote and then in a democracy you have to expect the othes to make the same effort. What is worth a democacy when its citizens are shrouded in propaganda?
Most people I encountered, regardless of their nationnality, have rather basic wishes mainly concerning the futur of their children and having enought beers to drink or/and minis to paint... Strangely, it seems that the minority of guys that want to steal your wife/beers/minis and make wars inavoidable always end at the head of governments.
Many apologies for my bad english writing.
What I tried to say is that I don\'t understand how disposing Hussein could benefit to the average US citizen.
What if in Irak they elect someone even more crazy than the previous one? Your solders will have to protect him in the name of democracy? Mabe they won\'t be given the choice to elect who they want... what a democratic comfort!
By the way I see you are very well informed of the mistreatment of muslims ( by the way I suspect any other religion is also baddly treated around here) in France, do you know that the riots that made so many deaths are not related to religious subjects?
Frankly I don\'t understand how someone can be proud of the silly animal that is drawn on his passport: you don\'t choose your place of birth, and unless you spend a lot of energy in investigating, you\'ll never get the information that enable you to make the right political vote and then in a democracy you have to expect the othes to make the same effort. What is worth a democacy when its citizens are shrouded in propaganda?
Most people I encountered, regardless of their nationnality, have rather basic wishes mainly concerning the futur of their children and having enought beers to drink or/and minis to paint... Strangely, it seems that the minority of guys that want to steal your wife/beers/minis and make wars inavoidable always end at the head of governments.
Many apologies for my bad english writing.
