Sounds reasonable...

[Chern Ann]

I can\'t help but feel Ghandi is being used in this argument in a poor way. Ghandi was a pacifist true, but he was aggressively pacifist. Civil disobedience, peaceful strikes, grinding economy to a halt through strikes and sit-ins, standing in front of tanks, that sort of thing. He was against colonialism and social injustice, what he stood for doesn\'t really apply to any other situation. He didn\'t advocate that police don\'t have guns or anything like that. His credo was bringing about social change (specifically equality) in a non-violent way.

In any event, he was not entirely successful since he didn\'t manage to resolve caste discrimination in India which still exists today, probably ran out of time.

 

[Evil Dave]

Nelson,
To continue your analogy with the mugger and subtle metaphors:
Back a decade or so ago this mugger, who was undisputed ruler of his apartment complex A and ruled it through terror and murder, decided that one apartment complex wasn’t enough. So he and his cohorts began to attack apartment complex B.
Now the tenants of Complex B were quite unhappy about this as were quite a few tenants in Complex A and went to the Police.
Now the complex’s A&B both fell into the domain of several police districts, and the police promised the people of Complex B that they would help, they also promised the people of Complex A that if they helped they would overthrow their murderous mugger and his cohorts.
The police fought the mugger and his cohorts, and the mugger gave up, so the police decided to give him another chance.
“Wait,” cried one police chief, who we shall call Sam, who had been on the frontlines the whole time carrying the fight to the evil mugger “We promised the people of Complex A that they wouldn’t have to deal with this mugger anymore.”
The other police chiefs paid Sam no heed and put the mugger back into power.
At which time the mugger used crack to kill anyone he suspected of rising against him.
The police did nothing, Sam watched and boiled.
Complex A was a very poor complex, many of the tenants did not have food to eat, but they made some of the best doughnuts around. So the police enacted a food for doughnuts program in order to help the people.
However as soon as the Food for Doughnuts plan came into action, the mugger found there was a way he could make a profit for himself, and bypass the Police’s regulations they put on him. Some of the police realized that they too could make some profit off of this and secretly began helping the mugger. So the people of Complex A continued to make the doughnuts, getting very little if none of the food, while the mugger and some of the police got fat off their work. This lasted for 11 years.
Reports came out that the mugger was making crack, but the police ignored this.
Officer Sam however, was still on the case. After talking to several witnesses’, the incident with the crack before, and intelligence reports he decided to go before the other officers and do something once and for all about this mugger..
At the meeting with the other officers Sam stood before them and stated:
“We have reason to believe this mugger is continuing to make crack even though we specifically told him not too. We send in inspectors with warrants and he constantly defies them, he kills and brutalizes the people of complex A, and it is our jobs, our duty, to get him out of there.”
“Comrade,” said Officer Ivan, “we cannot do this. He owes me money.”
“Oui,” said Officer Jacques, “he owes me money too, and I simply do not like you, you pig dog.”
“Don’t worry, Jacques” replied Officer Sam “I still remember the Libya Street incident, besides bringing you to a fight is like bringing an accordion on a deer hunt, just noisy excess baggage.”
“Vell, he owes me money also” spoke officer Hans, “and there is no definite proof he has crack.”
“But he used crack on the people of Complex A!” Sam cried.
“I’ll help.” Said Officer Tony
“As will I “said Officer Ferdinand
“Me, too” said Officer Hirohito. “Even though I have no gun.”

Many other officer stood up and said they would join the fight to, but they had no real voice in the council of officers.

And so the officers left the corrupted officers to bluster and went and overthrew the evil mugger.
The fight still rages on to this day and how the outcome will be no one knows.


*edit*
Nelson, while in theory your ideas of education, and enrichment seem noble and admirable, there is a point Quietimanes brought up...Personal Responsibility.

I grew up poor, so poor that I had to hunt to put meat on the table. All my clothes were hand me down from my cousins. My family never accepted welfare, or charity, we had each other, and pride
I fought a lot as a child, I dealt with guns my whole life, yet I have never killed anyone.
I have put myself through college with my work, my money, my effort.
I do not believe that giving the poor money will help their problems, it will make them dependant.
Look at the state of the welfare system in the US, many, many of those on it never even try to better themselves.
You never truely appreciate something unless you work for it, or fight for it, and if you don\'t work for it or fight for it, you truely don\'t deserve it.


@Vincegamer
I don\'t look at my childhood as violent. I look at it as building character and strength of will. For I will never back down, and I will always fight the good fight.
A man is not honored for how easily he goes through life, but for how he triumphs over the trials thrown at him.

 

[supervike]

this is a deep thread....

Like it or not, we live in a world that is controlled by the use or threat of violence.

It would be great if cooler heads prevailed, but reality is much different than how things ought to be.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by supervike
Like it or not, we live in a world that is controlled by the use or threat of violence.

I agree it is a fact of life, but I disagree that the world is controlled by it.

 

[supervike]

really?

Originally posted by vincegamer

Originally posted by supervike
Like it or not, we live in a world that is controlled by the use or threat of violence.

I agree it is a fact of life, but I disagree that the world is controlled by it.

Do you think morality or peacefullness would survive a single day in total anarchy?

Without the use or threats of violence the wolves would devour the sheep.

I am not saying this is a good thing. Hell, I know I am one of the sheep.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by QuietiManes But I think it makes about as much sense as \"Oh you just killed my mom? Let me give you a student loan, nice posh apartment on campus and a hooker (read girlfriend so you dont get too many unsatsfied sexual urges, cause dont want ya raping someone, then I\'d have to give you a woman to please you anyway so might as well do it now). *hug* Ghandi would be proud!\"

Yarrr....Once again, I\'m talking about prevention, not after the fact All I\'m really saying is that if we tried a bit harder, I\'d feel better about retaliation. As it is, stepping on a sleeping pit-bulls head, and then killing him for attacking you, while necessary, doesn\'t feel right.

Originally posted by Evil Dave
Nelson, while in theory your ideas of education, and enrichment seem noble and admirable, there is a point Quietimanes brought up...Personal Responsibility.

I grew up poor, so poor that I had to hunt to put meat on the table. All my clothes were hand me down from my cousins. My family never accepted welfare, or charity, we had each other, and pride
I fought a lot as a child, I dealt with guns my whole life, yet I have never killed anyone.
I have put myself through college with my work, my money, my effort.
I do not believe that giving the poor money will help their problems, it will make them dependant.
Look at the state of the welfare system in the US, many, many of those on it never even try to better themselves.
You never truely appreciate something unless you work for it, or fight for it, and if you don\'t work for it or fight for it, you truely don\'t deserve it.

Okay, I see your point, as I\'m the son of a single, poor, mother (although she is on welfare. That lazy bitch. I wish she\'d try and better herself. All she does all day is sit around and say \"Damn, I\'m lazy, I don\'t wanna get a job, I feel good freeloading off the government, cause it\'s easy.\" And then she goes down, cashes her welfare check, and laughs at all of the poor working shmoes.) I was abused as a child by the workers at a daycare. I\'m already having to figure out how to pay my way through college, hopefully by scholarships, and, while I have felt killing certain people in my life before, I never have, because I had a family who loved me, unlike a lot of people. In light of all that, I still feel the same way. Sure, once again, there are sadistic killers out there, who kill despite all the privileges, but don\'t you at least want to try?

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Nelson


Okay, I see your point, as I\'m the son of a single, poor, mother (although she is on welfare. That lazy bitch. I wish she\'d try and better herself. All she does all day is sit around and say \"Damn, I\'m lazy, I don\'t wanna get a job, I feel good freeloading off the government, cause it\'s easy.\" And then she goes down, cashes her welfare check, and laughs at all of the poor working shmoes.) I was abused as a child by the workers at a daycare. I\'m already having to figure out how to pay my way through college, hopefully by scholarships, and, while I have felt killing certain people in my life before, I never have, because I had a family who loved me, unlike a lot of people. In light of all that, I still feel the same way. Sure, once again, there are sadistic killers out there, who kill despite all the privileges, but don\'t you at least want to try?

No, not particularly, for I see that it would probably lead to more strife and conflict than anything else, more than race, more than religion.
Most of us in the world dislike our jobs, but we to get up every morning, do the daily grind, so that we may get the good things in life for ourselves and our families.
I have no problem giving my taxes to the government, they pay the military and the policemen who keep us safe, they fund a lot of research that keeps the world getting better, but I would have a problem giving my money to the government to help those too lazy or too ignorant to go out and get a job for themselves.

I work for me and mine, everything I get I earn.

Could you imagine going to work everyday to a job you hate, while someone is sitting at home living off of your money that you earned. Smoking crack, watching TV, while you\'re in your cubicle, or if your as lucky as I, your office, racking your brains or doing manual labor.

There is only one thing in this life that is free...and that is choice, the choices you make determine your life.
You have the choice to make your life better, or you have the choice to keep wallowing in the crap.

I care not one wit for the crackhead lying in the gutter, he chose his path.
I care not for the woman with 5 children from 5 different men, she chose her path.

The solution you offer would merely give those wallowing in the crap, hard working people\'s money. If wallowing in the crap isn\'t enough motivation to change your life, why should my money change it?

*edit*
Case in point Anna Nicole Smith.
She grew up trash, she had her looks going for her, she got well paid for being \"pretty\".
Did she better her education?
Did she try to make herself a better person?
Nope, she was still poor white trash...she just had money.

*re-edit*
I would however be in favor of a system that actually helped people who needed it, like widowed mothers and the such.
However, there needs to be strict stipulations as such:
*The check will be for a minimum wage of 40 hours.
* You must perform 40 hours of community service a week to get your check.
*You will be drug tested randomly, at any time the people over your case want it.
*drugs found in your system will constitute immediate removal from the program as well as criminal charges, as will showing up drunk.
*Mandatory birth control...probably the norplant system.
*Children over the age of 15 would be allowed to get on the system to help the family, however they must follow the state labor laws.

Something like this I would have no problem with.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by supervike
Do you think morality or peacefullness would survive a single day in total anarchy?

But the alternative is not total anarchy. Where in the world is total anarchy?

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by vincegamer

Originally posted by supervike
Do you think morality or peacefullness would survive a single day in total anarchy?

But the alternative is not total anarchy. Where in the world is total anarchy?

Yes, but without the threat of violence it soon would be.
If you knew that the cops would not shoot you, or mace you and that there were no penalties, no fear of retaliation, what would you do?
Maybe you\'d do nothing but others would.

 

[Hoblit]

Here\'s an interesting question.

If you were the only person in the world with supernatural powers, say like superman. Would you really use them to stop crime/war/whatever you think is bad, or would you become a lawbreaker? Remember there is nothing that could possibly prevent you from doing what you wanted.

While I would like to think that I would stay on the side of good, I know that there is a small part of me that would be thinking \"hey what are they going to do\"

Admittedly, I don\'t think i would kill, but I would certainly not be noble upstanding and pure. Think of Evil superman (Specifically the one in the movie where they don\'t get the kryptonite composition right) And for those of you who have no Idea what I am talking about. Think Smallville with the red kryptonite ring.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Hoblit
Here\'s an interesting question.

If you were the only person in the world with supernatural powers, say like superman. Would you really use them to stop crime/war/whatever you think is bad, or would you become a lawbreaker? Remember there is nothing that could possibly prevent you from doing what you wanted.

While I would like to think that I would stay on the side of good, I know that there is a small part of me that would be thinking \"hey what are they going to do\"

Admittedly, I don\'t think i would kill, but I would certainly not be noble upstanding and pure. Think of Evil superman (Specifically the one in the movie where they don\'t get the kryptonite composition right) And for those of you who have no Idea what I am talking about. Think Smallville with the red kryptonite ring.

Well they don\'t call me Evil Dave for nothing.

Or like the Jedi Mind Tricks,.
-Waves Hand-
\"Hey baby, you really don\'t need the clothes you\'re wearing.\" lollol

 

[Hoblit]

@Evildave Like the sig. There\'s a company here that is running a billboard ad campaign with the slogan, \"There is no such thing as a stupid question?\" I\'m still waiting for someone to add \"Only stupid people\"

 

[Evil Dave]

If you like that, you\'ll love this:
Despair Inc.

My favorite is the pessimist\'s coffee mug.