Speaking of thorny issues
- Thread starter Shawn R. L.
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No Such Agency
New member
I guess my take on it is that we KNOW we\'ve affected the world in many ways - pollution, urbanization, deforestation. I think it\'s likely that we have affected the global climate, but I also concede that it could be a very hard thing to prove beyond a doubt.
We should just remember that no matter what we do, the world will go on. Organisms will live and die, new species will evolve and someday go extinct. The Pacific Ocean will get smaller, and the Atlantic, bigger. Things will always change.
All else aside however, if we don\'t change... the future just might suck for us.
We should just remember that no matter what we do, the world will go on. Organisms will live and die, new species will evolve and someday go extinct. The Pacific Ocean will get smaller, and the Atlantic, bigger. Things will always change.
All else aside however, if we don\'t change... the future just might suck for us.
Braveheart712
New member
Our human egos make us think that we somehow have enough power to influence global climate condiitions. While I don\'t deny that we have polluted our planet, etc, this whole global warming non-crisis is a bunch of crap. This planet has gone through many cycles of warming and cooling without any help from yours truly, the human species. This planet emerged from the last ice age without any help from the fossil fuel burning hairless primates that now infect the planet. I am not saying that we shouldn\'t be aware of our environment and take measures to conserve, that does make sense. But this whole paranoid crap about global warming is laughable.
In the words of a brilliant mind \"In a few thousand years, the planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. We are nothing but a temporary infection. The planet is not going anywhere, we are! \" -George Carlin
In the words of a brilliant mind \"In a few thousand years, the planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas. We are nothing but a temporary infection. The planet is not going anywhere, we are! \" -George Carlin
It does not take arrogance to imagine that we could affect the climate. Organisms change their environment quite often, often with tragic results, and this is just one way that it could happen. Yes, the climate has changed a lot without our help and will continue to do so. This does not prove that we haven\'t caused or exacerbated the latest. There are plenty of legitimate questions about the case for global warming. This, however, is essentially an ad hominem strolling about town with a straw man.
DrEvilmonki
Active member
Personally I think you have to have your head up your arse to think 6 billion people destroying natural habitats and polluting at will wouldn\'t have a global effect.
farseerlum
New member
it realy is *odd*that people know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a thing called an ice-age.
yet are *unable* to realise that the last one and the one before that and all the ices ages before were not caused by people.
the very best that could be said for global climate change is that we are accelerating it.
the only good i can see from it all is less reliance on a single fuel. the worst (that i see all the time) is that we don\'t do the math and use MORE fuel.
yet are *unable* to realise that the last one and the one before that and all the ices ages before were not caused by people.
the very best that could be said for global climate change is that we are accelerating it.
the only good i can see from it all is less reliance on a single fuel. the worst (that i see all the time) is that we don\'t do the math and use MORE fuel.
Avelorn
Sven Jonsson
Please refrain from using words like \"stupid\" or \"pathetic\". I don\'t think either of us are stupid or pathetic and it will make this discussion turn into a stupid and pathetic one.
@Farseerlum: I\'m not sure what you are getting at. The existence of climate change in general has nothing to do whether we caused it or not now. If there had been no climate changes at all before, then it would have been very unlikely that we could do something to the atmosphere that changed the climate now. There has to be something that can change in order for we to change it.
Just as some species get extinct without our help and some with our help.
@Farseerlum: I\'m not sure what you are getting at. The existence of climate change in general has nothing to do whether we caused it or not now. If there had been no climate changes at all before, then it would have been very unlikely that we could do something to the atmosphere that changed the climate now. There has to be something that can change in order for we to change it.
Just as some species get extinct without our help and some with our help.
farseerlum
New member
there is nothing you can do short of killing yourselves.
if methane and CO2 are really the culprits of advancing climate change then the fact that humans exist is enough.
i do agree that i was using language that may cause stupid people to feel bad.
if methane and CO2 are really the culprits of advancing climate change then the fact that humans exist is enough.
i do agree that i was using language that may cause stupid people to feel bad.
Beelzebrush
Active member
I watched this documentary on TV a few weeks ago. The evidence presented was actually very compelling and rational and evidently based on quality research by climatologists... all of whom debate strongly against the QED attitude of the media and pressure groups who point at CO2 as the only reason for climate change.
I\'m not an expert in climatology and am in no way qualified or savvy enough to have an educated opinion on this subject... like most people here... but I did find the reasonings to be enlightening as a realistic and believable counter-argument to the reasons for global warming.
Now, before people start ranting about propoganda, how about putting your credentials on the table and explaining your arguments based on real, educated knowledge, or, like me, have you just read or watched the \'facts\' in a newspaper or on the TV?
Global warming is a controling issue as well as a real crisis. It falls into the same catergory as \'terrorism\' as a convenient way to rush through legislation and take actions that would ordinarily be seen as suspect and overly controlling. It\'s very definitely convenient for raising revenue for governments and acts as a credible bargaining chip for putting pressure on the new, upcoming super economies like China and India.
At the moment, I\'m not sure if I truly believe the rhetoric based on global warming being soley caused by human actions... I\'ll continue to be suspicious until there is NO credible counter-argument.
Flame away
I\'m not an expert in climatology and am in no way qualified or savvy enough to have an educated opinion on this subject... like most people here... but I did find the reasonings to be enlightening as a realistic and believable counter-argument to the reasons for global warming.
Now, before people start ranting about propoganda, how about putting your credentials on the table and explaining your arguments based on real, educated knowledge, or, like me, have you just read or watched the \'facts\' in a newspaper or on the TV?
Global warming is a controling issue as well as a real crisis. It falls into the same catergory as \'terrorism\' as a convenient way to rush through legislation and take actions that would ordinarily be seen as suspect and overly controlling. It\'s very definitely convenient for raising revenue for governments and acts as a credible bargaining chip for putting pressure on the new, upcoming super economies like China and India.
At the moment, I\'m not sure if I truly believe the rhetoric based on global warming being soley caused by human actions... I\'ll continue to be suspicious until there is NO credible counter-argument.
Flame away
I watched the Global Warming Swindle show when it was on TV a while back... well, when I say watched, I was in my room, fannying about on the internet, but someone was watching the TV downstairs at a loud enough volume that I could hear it.
In general I thought it was a pretty poor documentary. It felt very dumbed down and had obviously set out to show that we weren\'t causing climate change, and thus that is what it did, without delving deep into the issues or attempting to counter further questions that their statements and \'bending\' of facts caused. I almost went into a long rant here about specific examples, but handily I clicked the link Avelorn posted and that shows the sort of thing I am talking about.
Any decent documentary, for me at least, begins with an open minded aproach to the subject matter (I realise complete impartiality is very unlikely but as much as possible) otherwise it is just a case of the director finding sources that put his point across. It should hold up a balanced window to the subject and ask questions of the viewer, not ram a message down their throat. This didn\'t feel that way and falls in along with things like Farenheight 911. They are less documentaries, more a visual representation of a self-imposing rant. If I want to see one of those I just have to come to the various online forums I\'m a member of and check out the posts there (yes, mine included)!
In general I thought it was a pretty poor documentary. It felt very dumbed down and had obviously set out to show that we weren\'t causing climate change, and thus that is what it did, without delving deep into the issues or attempting to counter further questions that their statements and \'bending\' of facts caused. I almost went into a long rant here about specific examples, but handily I clicked the link Avelorn posted and that shows the sort of thing I am talking about.
Any decent documentary, for me at least, begins with an open minded aproach to the subject matter (I realise complete impartiality is very unlikely but as much as possible) otherwise it is just a case of the director finding sources that put his point across. It should hold up a balanced window to the subject and ask questions of the viewer, not ram a message down their throat. This didn\'t feel that way and falls in along with things like Farenheight 911. They are less documentaries, more a visual representation of a self-imposing rant. If I want to see one of those I just have to come to the various online forums I\'m a member of and check out the posts there (yes, mine included)!
Avelorn
Sven Jonsson
I have watched parts of it and honestly it felt no better then that \"Faked Moonlanding\". The rethorics seems to be the same in every documentary like this. The Martyrs, the politication of science etc.
@Beelzebrush: All \"documentaries\" or stuff like this sounds really convincing.. that\'s the way they\'re made. No one short of an expert will be able to refute all of it, even if some stuff are really cheap shots. I\'ve seen convincing \"documentaries\" about the holocaust hoax, evolution etc. in varying quality. Therefor you have to use other opinions and source criticism.. I provided a link to realclimate.. there you have the mainstream scientific opinion. You have to decide if that\'s enough for you. If you have more questions.. ask them and see if I can provide an answer that satisfy you.
There is no new information in this documentary, it\'s not something that the 2007 climate panel for example is unaware of. The only reason imo to believe this is if there is a conspiracy of some sort. And that subject has since the da vinci code lost some of its appeal.
@Lono: I agree fully.
@Beelzebrush: All \"documentaries\" or stuff like this sounds really convincing.. that\'s the way they\'re made. No one short of an expert will be able to refute all of it, even if some stuff are really cheap shots. I\'ve seen convincing \"documentaries\" about the holocaust hoax, evolution etc. in varying quality. Therefor you have to use other opinions and source criticism.. I provided a link to realclimate.. there you have the mainstream scientific opinion. You have to decide if that\'s enough for you. If you have more questions.. ask them and see if I can provide an answer that satisfy you.
There is no new information in this documentary, it\'s not something that the 2007 climate panel for example is unaware of. The only reason imo to believe this is if there is a conspiracy of some sort. And that subject has since the da vinci code lost some of its appeal.
@Lono: I agree fully.
paintingploddy
New member
This just in:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259649
I must admit that I believe humans are playing with variables in an equation and are changing the end result. I also believe that the system is constantly changing. I have no idea whether the effect we are having is to amplify or accelerate normal variation though and suspect we won\'t have an answer for a while yet.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=259649
I must admit that I believe humans are playing with variables in an equation and are changing the end result. I also believe that the system is constantly changing. I have no idea whether the effect we are having is to amplify or accelerate normal variation though and suspect we won\'t have an answer for a while yet.
Beelzebrush
Active member
That\'s pretty much my opinion on this too PP. I\'m not sure. I was also under the, probably misinformed, impression that the science surrounding climate change is still being debated by the scientists and that no definitive reason is known.
I have to add that our household is also trying to reduce our carbon footprint as per current advice, but I see no reason to not look at two sides of an important debate.
@ Averlorn
I wasn\'t saying that I believed the documentary as the gospel truth... I think your attitude is a little patronising... I see no reason to your smug comment about the Da Vinci Code either... your language is no less emotive than calling someone \'pathetic\' or \'stupid\'
Avelorn
Sven Jonsson
Yeah I agree re-reading what I wrote. sorry about that! Man talk throwing rocks in glasshouses.
I am a bit patronising towards the documentary though. But not arguments towards or against if you get the difference. Same with fake moonlanding or fahrenheit 911 for that matter.. I mean I could be wrong on that part and wrong on this one as well. The comment about da vinci code was ment more as a joke.. that it\'s old news or something. What I genreally ment also is that it supplies no new information, but the link from paintingploddy did for example.
Man talk throwing rocks in glasshouses. I am a bit patronising towards the documentary though. But not arguments towards or against if you get the difference. Same with fake moonlanding or fahrenheit 911 for that matter.. I mean I could be wrong on that part and wrong on this one as well. The comment about da vinci code was ment more as a joke.. that it\'s old news or something. What I genreally ment also is that it supplies no new information, but the link from paintingploddy did for example.
Actually, I\'m here to make a confession. Global Warming is in fact a great swindle, a religion to me and a crutch in my times of need.
As a leftist, I use it to further my personal goals and political aims and enforce them on others. These include things like not leaving lights on all the time, and trying to bike to
work more often.
It is in fact a great conspiracy engineered by thousands of scientists so they may bask in the glow of biased governmental funding and drive hummers to work.
Leftist politicians such as my father (CRD Director of Saltspring Island) use the global warming myth to incite great fear and panic in the minds of the common folk.
He then utilizes that fear to steal hard-earned money from tax-payers in order to line his own pockets with a gross wage of 30,000 CA dollars a year, and fund heinous initiatives such as green electricity-generating methane traps over landfills, buying wetlands from logging companies, and funding public transport.
The bastard.
EDIT: that might have come across as excessively vitriolic in the context of the thread. Well, it was a bit, but please don\'t take it too seriously. It was mostly meant to be tongue-in-cheek. :innocent:
As a leftist, I use it to further my personal goals and political aims and enforce them on others. These include things like not leaving lights on all the time, and trying to bike to
work more often.
It is in fact a great conspiracy engineered by thousands of scientists so they may bask in the glow of biased governmental funding and drive hummers to work.
Leftist politicians such as my father (CRD Director of Saltspring Island) use the global warming myth to incite great fear and panic in the minds of the common folk.
He then utilizes that fear to steal hard-earned money from tax-payers in order to line his own pockets with a gross wage of 30,000 CA dollars a year, and fund heinous initiatives such as green electricity-generating methane traps over landfills, buying wetlands from logging companies, and funding public transport.
The bastard.
EDIT: that might have come across as excessively vitriolic in the context of the thread. Well, it was a bit, but please don\'t take it too seriously. It was mostly meant to be tongue-in-cheek. :innocent:
