the economy/discuss

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uberdark

New member
figured that since it hasnt been brought up might as well mention it.

what are your feelings on what has been happening in the global market over the past few weeks/months?

is it right for governments to come in and bail out companies who goofed up? especially when the government is allowed more control of said companies?

Did you lose money over the past week? i sure did, i have my retirement plan through AIG and lost 2/3 of my money. and at the rate i was going i planned on retiring at 50. if i make my money back its still going to hurt me, because it will most likely be years before it comes back in its entirety. much like how ENRON ruined some of my other family members the same things are happening to me now.

and finally, how will these happenings affect you in your country, state, city, town, home?

talk amongst yourselves.
 
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StarFyre

Active member
...

Cdn banks here had investments in USA and thus, most got impacted in the billions...

So our stocks have gone down (overall prob not as bad as in the states of course).

I though, like chaos, and I was hoping the gov\'t wouldn\'t bail any of them out. I wanted them to go under, and then have economies restructure/rebuild themselves, hopefully smarter the next time.

Humanity should suffer for it\'s own greed/stupidity IMHO...

oh well.

Hope your investment plan grows back at least somewhat in the next few years!!!

work sucks...doing it is even worse when it feels like not gaining anything from it when stuff like this happens.

Sanjay
 
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generulpoleaxe

New member
companies that have made rash investments with their profits that only benefit themselves, whilst passing on the cost of their cock ups to their customers should be left alone to sink.
goverment plans to bail out these companies and allowing the directors to benefit from it as well is just ridiculous.

large enough companies already benefit from tax loop holes without them now knowing that if they are big enough then goverments will pull them out of the shit.
it sets a bad presidence for the future.

if a company wants true stability it should get itself off the stock market and work for the future.

these measures are not going to help economies, they are only going to keep the rot from noticiably spreading for a little while longer.
 
PegaZus

PegaZus

Stealth Freak
Let them fall. That sudden jerk at the end of their rope will probably kill them, but their death is already assured. Better to make it quick.

I\'ve read that one of the reasons they\'re doing these bailouts is to help keep the house prices up (I think the comment was more for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac). That\'s just stupid. House prices are too high, and they need to fall.

I\'ve been lucky. I sold our California house after nearly a year on the market last April. We got $100k over what I paid for it in 2000, but 5/8ths of the \"market value\" of it from the peak. I\'m still very happy about that. And our new house is in a not-as-bubbly market. Had to pull out a loan from the 401k, and then later cashed out all my private stocks as an emergency cash reserve. So my retirement has had a chunk protected from the 30% market drop it would have seen, plus all my private stock has been protected as well.

Like I said... lucky. Wish I could claim smart in there too, but I was just lucky.

So, I would wager that we won\'t see recession until middle of next year. Next summer is when the fecal matter starts to hit the rapidly rotating device. A majority of the Alt-A\'s and other \"good\" loans are going to reset. Six months from there, the next wave of foreclosures, which the severity of will depend on if the recession can be overcome. I keep reading people saying \"if it\'s an emergency now, why didn\'t they do this six months ago?\". And I think its because they\'re trying to avert the disaster that will be 2009.
 
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Wendy

New member
Well, given that the Fed is the problem, giving them more power and oversight is not the solution. Neither is giving complete power with no oversite to the Treasury Secretary to buy and sell debt at his discretion to the benefit of his friends.

The buyouts are wall street welfare. The elite and well connected get rich and everyone else loses.
 
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james9487

New member
They\'re not doing the bail-outs to save the rich, it\'s supposed to be for the good of the regular people. If all of these companies went bankrupt, the unemployment rate would skyrocket and it would be a decade long nightmare for everyone (in the world because of the very high level of globalization, it would be a domino effect).

Alan Greenspan talked about the \'Mexican Peso Crisis\' in his book in which the US government \'bailed out\' the Mexican debt, but it was actually just a loan at, according to Greenspan, \'such high rates that they only borrowed a fraction of the amount offered and paid it back very quickly\'.

I don\'t like government regulation though and I think that allowing natural selection to run its course is best in the long-run but unfortunately human beings don\'t like discomfort and require the government to \'keep the ride as smooth as possible\'. So I really don\'t know where I stand on this.
 
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Monkeysplitters

New member
yeah, plus the prob is that capitalist economies are built on the availability of capital for loans. If these giants fail then all their subsidiaries fail as well. If you cannot get a home loan or a loan for your business etc the economy screeches to a halt. like it or not this bailout is a necessary evil, and I feel grateful that my government can do this. And from what I have heard the government will make money on this bailout specifically because they are buying up all these chopped up high risk investments (which are worth exactly nothing now) but since the government does not need to make money off of it it can sit on the investment til the market has regained its feet then sell it for like 30% more then they paid.

Also
 
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supervike

Super Moderator
It pisses me off.

The bailout plan helps those shady sonofabitches that took insane risks only because they wanted to make sure they could maximize profits.

For that percentage of folks that wanted to buy a second and third \'vacation\' home, a new sailboat, or a helicopter, the rest of us end up getting screwed AND left with the tab.

The current government, Rep. and Dems TOGETHER caused this climate, and they should both be held accountable and voted out promptly.

If they don\'t do this bailout, the resulting crash in the economy will make our money even more worthless than it is, plus cause jobs loss and even worse economic times.

If we do the bailout, the money comes right out of the taxpayers pocket, the fatcats keep their ill gotten booty, and we will still face hard economic times.

Some choice they\'ve left us.
 
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Beelzebrush

Active member
frazer.jpg
 
Dragon Forge Design

Dragon Forge Design

New member
Well couple things for those that lost money in the market, you still hold the shares and the market traditionally bounces back..in 3-4 years you will be fine.

For every one that wants to bitch about them shady characters making all that money.. put into their shoes most would of all done the same thing.. Greed is a powerful addiction..

Saying that I think part of the bail out money should be used to build a Super Max prison right in the heart of Wall Street and stick all them thieving bastards into it and let them look out tiny windows the rest on their lives at the world they screwed over..

Saying that..my predictions that when Bushy signs this into law next Monday or so..the stock market will see a 1500 point jump minimum.. so buy low..sell high ;)
 
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Thecadian

Active member
well whilst i can sympathise with those people who have lost money. However i do think that the governments should bail out these banks. I agree that the people in the banking industry have taken stupid risks if the governments get involved i think that this sort of risks wont occur again as they will be accountable to the public and wont be trying to make huge profits. If we let these banks fail then the entire banking system around the world would collapse resulting in even more misery for people and as dragonforge says give it 2/3 years and hopefully all of this would have cleared itself up.
 
Infidel Castro

Infidel Castro

New member
Gutted for you that you saw your pension wiped out, Uber. I\'m 31yrs old and I keep meaning to get a pension, but the more I consider it the scarier it becomes; putting that money away and then seeing it wiped out....:no:
 
RuneBrush

RuneBrush

New member
The problem as I see it is that the governments are only looking at the short term. \"lets bail out financial establishment X\". Where exactly is this money coming from? Well the tax payer I guess... great more debt. It\'s like in the UK, HBOS has merged with Lloyds TSB. Well that means that this new conglomorate can now take larger risks as the government isn\'t going to let them fold now as they\'re huge.

I think that the problem started years back, when the banks loaned people stupid amounts of money that in reality people were always going to struggle paying back. Most peoples credits card limits are so large now that they could spend a year\'s worth of wages on it.

My personal bugbear as well, is that there are such big differences in peoples wages that the poor get poorer. In the UK you often get statements on the news that \"the cost of living has gone up by an average of X%\", well thats complete toss. If a loaf of bread goes up by five pence, then it goes up by five pence if you\'re earning £12k a year or £36k a year. If you are the person on 36k, then your loaf of bread isn\'t three times more expensive, nor do you buy three times as much bread, fine you might buy slighly more expensive bread, but generally that 5p increase will be fairly static. What these daft statements mean is that the real problem is being hidden - that people at the bottom / low end of the payscale are going to struggle even more.

Now, selfishly the reversal of the housing market is a good thing for me, I\'m looking to buy my first property next year, that said all I seem to be seeing is shared equity schemes, so yet again somebody trying to profit from the housing market. If the housing company can afford to \'loan\' me 25% the value of a house, then they can afford to reduce the cost of that house.

Ok, I feel better for that vent :)

Pete

ps Best statement ever \"Ok, if the govenment has so much debt why don\'t they just print out some more money?\"
 
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generulpoleaxe

New member
the economies world wide are going tits up because companies (especialy banks) are investing in each other.
this sets up a chain that only needs one weak link.
on top of that, companies are not using physical assets/capitol to invest, it\'s all paperwork, which is why we have the problems with the banks currently.

get rid of the stock market and especialy inflation and you can create a very stable world wide economy.
it\'s harder for companies to grow as they have to work at it and do it steadily instead of just printing more shares whenever they need more money.
without inflation you also have greater stability.

these things don\'t suit the people pulling the strings though, as it\'s they who benefit through bad credit, inflation (an increase in wages of say 2% isn\'t even when one person gets 2% of 10k and one gets 2% of 100k) and tax breaks for larger corperations (who have ties with the politicians who give them the breaks and later bail them out of the shit they have got themselves into)
 
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