The Goverment and Money

[mud duck]

Does anyone else find it \'odd\' that the Government here in the States is talking about \'giving\' people a check to boost the economy?
Not that I couldn\'t use the money, really I could, but I question where is this money coming from in the first place? TAXES! Thats where! It is OUR money in the first place! Wouldn\'t it be better to rework the whole tax law so We the People can save a couple hundred trees from becoming checks?
I forget who said it, and if I even have the quote correct, but here goes; \"We know that the Government controls the people when they can bribe them with their own money.\"
Sorry about this just had to rant a bit, and get it off my chest. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[fieldarchy]

Well that\'s been part of the discussion though Mud. Notice the timing of this tax break? And who\'s talking about it the most? The Republican hopefuls. They\'ve been talking about this tax refund and how the tax system really needs to be reworked so that more money is going back to the middle class. Now, what is the middle class you say? Anyone making between $30 and $100k if I remember correctly, or somewhere in there. Anyway, point being, with a new president on the way to the office this is going to be a platform for the candidates. Hopefully if we actually get someone in office who will do good for us, then hopefully we can look forward to a revision of the tax system as well. It\'s about time it\'s done any way.

Our country is constantly changing but the laws rarely do. I think we need to ask for some big changes.

And if no representatives willingly make changes . . . time for another revolution if you ask me. Quite literally too! I think we should not be afraid to stand up to our government like we did 300 years ago if need be.

(now this should stir up the conversation a bit)

 

[Friar]

lol actually since we are operating in such a deficit it\'s actually a loan the gov is taking out on the taxes we will pay to give us a shot of cash to hopefully boost the economy tho it\'s a tad like slappin a band-aid on a severed limb, we\'re bleeding too much out in trade deficit and massive over spending for this lil fix to do anything certainly isn\'t going to stop the recession thats knockin at the door.

lol just saw your post there Meg as I posted mine lol as much as I would like to think the people could force change, personally I see things bein too different here for another revolt. between media and the Govs power to have it\'s way it\'s just not feesable for a rag tag militia to do anything. not too mention this isn\'t a Gov thats putting it\'s will on us from across an ocean at a time when the travel and communications allowed for things to get stirred up while their reactions got slowed up. Only real chance of a revolution here bein able to even start would be to have states putting their national guard units up to oppose the standing federal gov.

All in all tho I think tax reform is on it\'s way but we\'ll see.

 

[mud duck]

Ah, but it sounds good to the masses, Friar. Free money! Where do I sign up?
As for the Republicans talking about this the most, they really don\'t have the \"personality\" of the Dems (if you really call it that), and if anyone in the Senate on the Dems side try to block this whole thing, hows that going to look when the elections come around?

 

[lizcam]

Speaking of money, I saw a new story on BBC America last night about some investment guy in France, working for one of the top banks, who lost 4 BILLION dollars of the banks money in bad investments. Can you believe it? What testicals THAT took!

It seems he lost some money, and then figured he\'d invest more to get that back, lost that and just kept doing it over and over again. What an idiot!

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Some saying from long ago lamented at what a fell day it will be when the government can bribe the people with the people\'s OWN money.

 

[mud duck]

A ah, That\'s the quote that I was looking for!

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by mud duck
Does anyone else find it \'odd\' that the Government here in the States is talking about \'giving\' people a check to boost the economy?
Not that I couldn\'t use the money, really I could, but I question where is this money coming from in the first place? TAXES! Thats where! It is OUR money in the first place! Wouldn\'t it be better to rework the whole tax law so We the People can save a couple hundred trees from becoming checks?
I forget who said it, and if I even have the quote correct, but here goes; \"We know that the Government controls the people when they can bribe them with their own money.\"
Sorry about this just had to rant a bit, and get it off my chest. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Sure it would, but then where would her thighness get the bookmarked pork barrel from?
Both Dems are on the record as wanting to raise taxes.

 

[Avelorn]

You reason as money\'s got a objective value. Not even Gold has that.

Lowering taxes does not necessarily get you more money, it can do quite the opposite. Same with pay-raises. As our beloved goverment in Sweden lowered the taxes in the mid of a flourishing economy while at the same time the union managed to get raised wages. What happened? Inflation... and the value of our money is devalued. It\'s just in this last decade we in Sweden have actually gotten higher wages in real terms despite payraises during the 80\'s on sometimes 5-6% / year. 3% raise/year can easily in the end get you more money then a 6% raise/year for example. Another thing to mention is that even if the inflation is overall low, raised prices on key-consumer items of the economy of course can lend you less money. Like food, energy etc.

Raising taxes can improve economy much as well, depending what you do with the money. Redistributing wealth of course have a positive effect on the economy as the pattern of consumtion for low and middle-class citizens outdoes the patterns in a system where less get more. Increasing the public sector with state-financed jobs with good wages mean that more people can get a decent living and contribute to the economy.. while crime-rates can go down and public health increase.

Sweden have much higher taxes than the U.S. But in the end we don\'t necessarily have less money left in the wallet. Especially since we have public health care and free tuition to college etc. Free tuition also mean that most of us can get a decent education, which leads to further productivity increases.

About the recession... well. It will happen, as it always does. The tragedy is that it\'s all psychology. A very good example of game-theory.

 

[mud duck]

Ah, but unfortunately the price of college is on the rise, and has been increasing every year by leaps and bounds. And we have to pay it. Same for health care, and companies are starting to drop the really nice plans that they where giving as benefits not 7 or 8 years ago. It\'s just starting to get really expensive, but has the services of either improved? It seems to me that I hear more about the school system hiring another assistance vice principle, or an on staff grief consoler because the class hamster died, then about a new math or science teacher being hired. I mean theres ad on the box about saving music programs in k-12 classes, but the school districts are asking for more and more money every year (and sometimes twice a year). To me it seem that the whole system needs to be reworked, but that\'s just me....

 

[Wren]

Winfall cheques are probably a better bribe. It\'s money you can see, touch and spend right when you get it. (And like Meg, I don\'t think the timing of when people will be getting it is accidental...) Tax reform money would be maybe savings in the future that people might or might not figure out well enough to benefit from and might or might not remember well enough to influence their voting. Sure this plan costs a lot, but it costs a lot once. Letting people save $300-$1200 every year on their taxes would keep on costing.

Alhough I question how much it\'s going to do to goose the economy, I\'m confident it will buy the government some goodwill. Here in Tennessee, we pay almost 10% sales tax. The past few years they\'ve started tax exempt weekends a couple of times a year, primarily intended to help people in school or with kids in school. So clothes, computers and a few other things are tax free for the day. People go bananas for this. It\'s the next thing to day after Thanksgiving for shopping chaos. It\'s great if you need a computer, but for other stuff I think you\'d save more in the end being a smart shopper and shopping around saving than a flat 10%. But I think people go so crazy for it in part because they feel like with every item they buy they\'re sticking it to the government a little.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Avelorn
You reason as money\'s got a objective value. Not even Gold has that.

Lowering taxes does not necessarily get you more money, it can do quite the opposite. Same with pay-raises. As our beloved goverment in Sweden lowered the taxes in the mid of a flourishing economy while at the same time the union managed to get raised wages. What happened? Inflation... and the value of our money is devalued. It\'s just in this last decade we in Sweden have actually gotten higher wages in real terms despite payraises during the 80\'s on sometimes 5-6% / year. 3% raise/year can easily in the end get you more money then a 6% raise/year for example. Another thing to mention is that even if the inflation is overall low, raised prices on key-consumer items of the economy of course can lend you less money. Like food, energy etc.

Raising taxes can improve economy much as well, depending what you do with the money. Redistributing wealth of course have a positive effect on the economy as the pattern of consumtion for low and middle-class citizens outdoes the patterns in a system where less get more. Increasing the public sector with state-financed jobs with good wages mean that more people can get a decent living and contribute to the economy.. while crime-rates can go down and public health increase.

Sweden have much higher taxes than the U.S. But in the end we don\'t necessarily have less money left in the wallet. Especially since we have public health care and free tuition to college etc. Free tuition also mean that most of us can get a decent education, which leads to further productivity increases.

About the recession... well. It will happen, as it always does. The tragedy is that it\'s all psychology. A very good example of game-theory.

This is very true, however, our congress likes to raise taxes and redistribute it right back to themselves. Plus they have a tendency to give hand outs rather than hand ups creating generational welfare and entire communities dependent on the taxpayers money. ie New Orleans
I thought I read something where Sweden was starting to have a little trouble with the newer generations wanting to stay home, raise babies and live off the dole rather than getting jobs and passing on that same philosophy to their children.
I also read that in France the rich are starting to say screw it and starting to leave the country because of the exorbitant taxes.

 

[wiccanpony]

??? and my Government would rather I “not” use the money to pay off bills or put into savings, but go forth and spend, spend, spend...... I think not

 

[james9487]

The point of the rebates is to stimulate the economy so paying your bills would be an ideal use of it in the eyes of the government. As long as business\' revenues go up then the market corrections will be smoother and easier for everyone (if every taxpayer now has a $600-$1200 check to go spend then business losses could possibly turn into gains and their layoff plans could be scaled down or tossed out the window altogether).

America has a negative savings rate so the government is banking on people living true to their nature. If people save the money then the recession isn\'t smoothed and the rebates were pointless. As Avelorn said, recessions are psychological and thanks to the media, the more the news corps. talk about recessions and other economic concepts that few people really understand, the more unnecessary fear they create.

Granted, when the major financial firms in America lose a combined $100 billion in bad subprime loans, a recession WILL happen because companies will be forced to downsize as they lose their spending money required to maintain operations, pay salaries, etc.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Bill Clinton was once quoted as remarking something to the effect he didn\'t want to give us a tax break because he didn\'t think we would spend OUR money correctly. Sorry king Bill but it\'s OUR money

This seems to be the creeping sentiment of the government and much of the populace.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.


This seems to be the creeping sentiment of the government and much of the populace.

Thats right for sure, and it doesn\'t matter what side of the political aisle you are one. More and more our government thinks it knows what is best for us. More and more they put those laws on the books.

As for the \'rebate\'...its still a pittance compared to the tax I really pay. And the scary thing is most Americans have no clue on the taxes they pay. Sales tax, hidden fees, assessments, etc. etc. And yet we do not hold our government accountable for it.

In Iowa, we pay 7 percent sales tax (plus have a State Income Tax), Property taxes, car registrations, special levys, , and yet we are constantly told that the Schools and roads need yet more money.

Plus they\'ve had a \'money raising\' state Lottery for as long as I can remember.

Wouldn\'t our money be better spent actually auditing how it is spent as opposed to just throwing money at the schools.

Hell, and I feel the public school system is so bad here, that I send my kids to a parochial school (where I pay tuition)....yet I still have to pony up my share of the taxes to fund those crappy public schools..

We have been getting ripped off for years, it\'s institutionalized robbery, and none of us has the smarts or organization to stop it.

So, when I get my \'windfall\' rebate, it goes straight to the bank, so I can save to pay the next tax bill.

 

[Sand Rat]

Ah, Taxes.

I usually get half what I pay in Federal Taxes over the course of a year back. Pay them evil state sales taxes as well.

But hey, we all got to do our part so multimillionaire farmers can get paid money by the government to not grow anything. I\'m not talking about the average farmer here - just the asshats who collect millions in subsidies from the government.

So why not give me $300-600? I\'d rather spend it than have the government do something with it - he\'ll they\'re liable to use it to protect a fish that doesn\'t need protection -

 

[Shawn R. L.]

One trick they do almost always is to when the clamor gets loud enough for reduced taxes the reply is to immediately go for the throat. \"OK, you want things reduced?? well bunkie here you go\" and the start to cut police and fire departments which logically (and as planned) scares people and makes cutting tax\'s a \'bad idea\'.................GRRRR No, they don\'t start with the street sweepers or tree trimmers or clean their own houses by cutting bureaucracy. Bald faced manipulation. Government by the people, FOR the people.........I wish...

 

[skeeve]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.

Bill Clinton was once quoted as remarking something to the effect he didn\'t want to give us a tax break because he didn\'t think we would spend OUR money correctly. Sorry king Bill but it\'s OUR money

While I understand your sentiment, but with most of consumer goods now imported (in certain sectors % of imported goods reaches 80-90%) most likely we will not spend our money correctly. We simply have little choice (again by \"we\" I mean , say 70-80% of population). So, in the end of the day we will be investing ~80 billions in the economics of China and other exporters.
Tell, me please, how it is gona help OUR economy?

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by skeeve

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.

Bill Clinton was once quoted as remarking something to the effect he didn\'t want to give us a tax break because he didn\'t think we would spend OUR money correctly. Sorry king Bill but it\'s OUR money

While I understand your sentiment with most of consumer goods now imported (in certain sectors % of imported goods reaches 80-90%) we will, most like will not spend our money correctly. We simply have little choice (again by \"we\" I mean , say 70-80% of population). So, in the end of the day we will be investing ~80 billions in the economics of China and other exporters.
Tell, me please, how it is gona help OUR economy?

The point is not whether we will spend it correctly or not.
The point is it\'s ours, and that if they\'re able to give it back, then they probably shouldn\'t have taken it in the first place.