The virtue of scale ( revisited.)

[SIGIL]

Hello all.

I know I have posted a topic about this before but I felt that adiscussion about the virtue of scale could be really enlightening given the opportunity.

I have recently started sculpting and I have to say that in the beginning ( as if I have enough experience to think I am beyond the beginning. ) I really thought that 30 mm scale was impossible and not neccessarily good for making minis. Now however I have gotten to where I can sculpt in 30 mm scale ( if you could call me a \" sculptor \". lol ) and I am comfortable in this scale.

I can see that there are many pros to producing a line in this scale such as ; comformity to other lines, abundance of minis in games or displays, cost of production and cost to the consumer. Also I think that in 30mm scale the spectacular are seperated from the mediocre VERY quickly. I have gained a GREAT deal of respect for the pros....... or anyone who can sculpt a good fig in 30mm scale, and have also come to a fondness for the scal eas well.

However I have also learned many cons to in this scale.... For one I think that sculptures in this scale are more difficult to paint.. or at least difficult to paint well and highly detailed. Also the figs themselves are limited by nature of the scale. Certain poses can be done to a greater expense to the manufacturer and thusly to greater cost and effort ( assembly ) to the consumer. Of course this is probably also true of any scale. Also I have noticed that the detail / proportion in minis of this scale tend to vary WILDLY! I noticed this looking at figs from Rackham and GW and Reaper. While some figs look as though they are actually much larger than they are ( because of the precision of the fig\'s proportion and the consistency of detailed features ) others are less detailed and have a very \" small scale \" look. I don\'t know maybe it is just me.


Which brings me now to the question; Though small scale has it\'s merits.... are they really worth it?


Considering the larger scale minis , Inquisitor, Dark Age, and now Fantasy games minis and figs from 30mm scale lines like Rackham\'s Wolfen, Giants, Minotaurs, etc., there is a noticably DRASTIC difference in the quality of the sculpts and also the paint jobs as well.

I understand that certainlycons to 50 mm scale figure lines; cost to both manufacturer and consumer, more likely limited number of figs per purchase and area of display, incompatibility to other lines ( that is a big problem there ) and retailer disincentive ( is that a word? ). SO certainly it is a risky development to create a line of figs that are based on a 50 mm scale.

However do these really outweigh the benefits of larger scale? I would think that the benefits of a larger scale include; better sculptural quality ( details, proportion, etc. ), easier to paint ( which to me is a BIG deal to the smart manufacturer. ) more impressive display ( Hey the bigger they are the better they stand out in a crowd right? ) greater durability ( ? ) more dynamic poses, less / easier assembly, easier conversion.


At least this is how I see it. I could be wrong.


Hope you took the time to read all that drivel. And I look forward to your own thoughts on the matter.

 

[No Such Agency]

If all minis were 50mm, none of us would have any space left in our houses to display them all! Army transport would be 4x harder as well(twice as tall = 4x volume and mass). I assume this is why 25mm was originally chosen, it\'s about an even inch and it\'s small enough for practical gaming.

 

[Tiderius]

I dunno I think 25mm figures are intended for large groups of mini\'s.

I think and army of 50mm\'s would be crazy

 

[DennisMech]

mini wise, I think 50mm is superior. However, because a laege part of the hobby is taken up by gamers, constraints such as the ones pointed out Tiderius and No Such Agency, prohibit this. Also, you can get away with painting a 30mm figuer pretty crap for an army, but on a larger scale, it really shows. However, what could make 50mm more accesible, would be producing some squad boxed sets in that scale, allowing people to build an army.

 

[SIGIL]

Also, you can get away with painting a 30mm figuer pretty crap for an army, but on a larger scale, it really shows.

But at the same time would it not be much easier to paint a larger scale mini?

And yes I think that for such a line to begin it would almost have to be availible in boxed sets.

 

[Impernouncable]

Traditional toy soldiers are still most common in 54mm. They just have a poor presence in the game market. I read somewhere that 25mm figures became popular in the 20th century, and 28-30mm really only became the standard after Games Workshop became the most powerful figure manufacturer in the world.

While common wisdom might make one think that painting a larger figure is easier that doesn\'t seem to be the case much of the time. If anything it seems to me that bigger pieces are where one should look to see a painter\'s real skills. Locally we have a lot of guys that paint their small scale stuff pretty well, but only the really good painters can carry over a high standard of execution when painting their larger models.

I for one would like to see more sf and fantasy themed stuff in 54mm, but I don\'t think that the market is really there. Inquisitor has been shifted over to specialist games, which one can interpret as meaning it\'s not doing well enough to merit real support, and the rest of the 54mm market is dominated by historicals. If GW\'s marketing machine and the volumous fluff behind 40K can\'t make large scale fantasy figure successful, I\'m not sure it can be done. There are a handful of other manufacturers that do some, but they seem to be pretty few and far between. A sample of 54mm fantasy links follows.

Fontegris
Irregular
Andrea
FG Minis

There are a multitude of historical manufacturers. I have some on my links page.

 

[Tiderius]

I also think that a game with large scale miniatures would be great if it had boxed sets. Many people like the idea of collecting an army (ie: Warmachine; and people collecting tons of models, for a small skirmish game).

Money is a factor also, but it doesn\'t seem to daunt many true collectors, I have been reading through the posts and people have thousands of mini\'s (where can you fit more than 200 mini\'s?! hehe)

I wouldn\'t mind some larger scale stuff. But for painters and sculptors alike, it\'s a new challenge. For painting, seeing as the highlights, and shades change as the scale increases, there will also be larger areas to paint. Sculpting will be more detailed also.

I\'m no pro, but that\'s just my 2 cents.

 

[Jenova]

Originally posted by SIGIL
However I have also learned many cons to in this scale.... For one I think that sculptures in this scale are more difficult to paint.. or at least difficult to paint well and highly detailed.

I really don\'t think that is true... I have painted both 28mm and 54mm and I find 54 much more difficult. The blending needs to be so incredibly smooth! It takes ages. I don\'t even know how long it took me to paint my last 54mm.

Considering the larger scale minis , Inquisitor, Dark Age, and now Fantasy games minis and figs from 30mm scale lines like Rackham\'s Wolfen, Giants, Minotaurs, etc., there is a noticably DRASTIC difference in the quality of the sculpts and also the paint jobs as well.

Most of the Dark Age figs are 30mm... the 50mm figs are aliens and mutants. I really like being able to combine a lot of 30mm figs with a few larger ones. That gives a nice variation. I think it\'s really cool that Conf and Dark Age offer so much variety, and I do don\'t think I would even consider playing a game with 54mm figs only.

do these really outweigh the benefits of larger scale? I would think that the benefits of a larger scale include; better sculptural quality ( details, proportion, etc. ), easier to paint ( which to me is a BIG deal to the smart manufacturer. ) more impressive display ( Hey the bigger they are the better they stand out in a crowd right? ) greater durability ( ? ) more dynamic poses, less / easier assembly, easier conversion.

As I mentioned before, I don\'t think painting 50mm is easier. I also don\'t see how they are more durable. My Inquisitor figs are much more fragile than the average 28mm, because they are made of many parts and they have long thin swords and stuff like that.

From a personal experience I can also tell you that converting 54mm is much harder than convertion 28mm unless the manufactures gives you a couple of alternative parts in the package. The transitions between parts is usually much more difficult to make in 54mm.

Just my thoughts. Good luck with the project

 

[kittykat23uk]

Hi,

I think people are getting a bit confused here. Aren\'t wolfen still 30mm scale? That is, they are in scale with the rest of the confrontation line but that they are much larger than your regular human troop.

I am of the opinion that larger models (whether these belong to a large scale range like Inquisitor or larger models in a 28 to 30mm line such as the wolfen) are more difficult to paint for the same reasons that Jenova mentioned.

I also think that they are more difficult to convert, simply because you have less models in the ranges from which to harvest bitz and any off the shelf bitz you can buy are normally metal and expensive. Theres also more likely to be a problem trying to get thee parts to match up.

Having said all this, I actually prefer to paint larger models, such as the wolfen and dragons.

regards

Kat

 

[Dr. Bob]

I like the smaller minis

I can see how 54mm minis would be great for showcasing your painting skills (if you have them), but I still like my little 25mm or 28mm figs.

Overall, I think the larger minis are actually HARDER to paint, HARDER to assemble, LESS dynamic, and MORE fragile.

They also just don\'t seem like things someone would want to game with - display? yes, play with? no.

 

[supervike]

1 for 1

I prefer the 1:1 scale, but the stupid forest dragon has really destroyed my garage. Plus his tail sticks out in the yard, and people are starting to wonder.

lollol

 

[finn17]

Hmmm....

Super, you been at the turps again??

 

[kittykat23uk]

Originally posted by supervike
I prefer the 1:1 scale, but the stupid forest dragon has really destroyed my garage. Plus his tail sticks out in the yard, and people are starting to wonder.

lollol

COOL!! Where can I get hold of one ??? lol

Regards

Kat

 

[frenchkid]

I agree in saying that the 54mm minis are usually more detailed but I have to say that they are harder to paint to a good level and they are definetly more fragile. But I have to say that a whole army of 54mm minis would be cool. hehe if you made wolfen in a 54mm scale you\'d get 100mm wolfs, really cooool

 

[DennisMech]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob
I can see how 54mm minis would be great for showcasing your painting skills (if you have them), but I still like my little 25mm or 28mm figs.

Overall, I think the larger minis are actually HARDER to paint, HARDER to assemble, LESS dynamic, and MORE fragile.

They also just don\'t seem like things someone would want to game with - display? yes, play with? no.

I think they\'re usualy more dynamic, because they\'re composed of many more peices that 28mm. There\'s often much more complicated and fixed poses. However, that means that multiposablilty is rarely seen in this scale. That\'s why I dont think plastics would have a place here. Also, 54mm minis are usualy much closer to real proportions (no, i don\'t mean they\'re closer to are size, I\'m talking about realistic limb and head sizes compared to the model.

hey look, 400 posts, weeee!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by DennisMech
I think they\'re usualy more dynamic, because they\'re composed of many more peices that 28mm. There\'s often much more complicated and fixed poses. However, that means that multiposablilty is rarely seen in this scale. That\'s why I dont think plastics would have a place here. Also, 54mm minis are usualy much closer to real proportions (no, i don\'t mean they\'re closer to are size, I\'m talking about realistic limb and head sizes compared to the model.

In theory you would imagine that larger scale minis would allow greater variety in poses, but I haven\'t seen it in my limited experience.

Most 54mm minis that I\'ve seen are pretty boring for some reason (in terms of their poses). They just stand there saying, \"Hey look at me! I\'m so detailed!\"



The proportions are better in larger scales, I agree. On the other hand, if you want \"true\" proportionality, why stop at 54mm? Why not go to 1:6 resin models?

 

[UncleHex]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob
In theory you would imagine that larger scale minis would allow greater variety in poses, but I haven\'t seen it in my limited experience.

Minis need to be easily removed from the mould without harming it . Larger models (which transfer more heat:flame: ) will quickly wear out the moulds (if the pose isn\'t flat enough) much more than their smaller counterparts.
Remember that the moulds only have two halves. A very animated figure may end up with whole areas (a foot or hand, for example) embedded in one half of the mould. Every time this piece is removed after casting, the embedded part will scrape detail from the mould on its way out. The bigger the mini, the more heat it will transfer to the rubber and the worse it gets.
Plastics are even more limited in pose as the moulds (or dies) are not flexible and so do not allow undercuts (let alone embedding).
Resin, however, can give you very animated poses as one-piece castings but the production process is slow and laborious.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Thanks Uncle Hex! That makes sense.

 

[Tuubje]

Originally posted by UncleHex
Resin, however, can give you very animated poses as one-piece castings but the production process is slow and laborious.

Don\'t the resin moulds break after a certain series of casts? I\'ve heard such a thing and wonder if it\'s true

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by kittykat23uk

Originally posted by supervike
I prefer the 1:1 scale, but the stupid forest dragon has really destroyed my garage. Plus his tail sticks out in the yard, and people are starting to wonder.

lollol

COOL!! Where can I get hold of one ??? lol

Regards

Kat

Noooooo you can\'t ride it to Gamesday next year. Think of all the little kiddies it\'ll eat..........Hang on a minute recind that lest comment! lol