The Zen of Paint Brands

[E-Arkham]

Helloa,

Recently there was quite a rattling little debate on the Wizards of the Coast miniature boards between using craft paints (Apple Barrel, Folk Art, etc) and more professional paints (Vallejo, Citadel, etc). Though the thread itself was erased during a boards update, it did linger long enough to stir in the back of my head.

The arguments included the inability to easily thin or blend craft paints, and the ease of being able to thin or blend the professional paints. The craft side claimed equally professional results. The other side claimed that while a poor artist blames not his tools, there was no reason to handicap one\'s self.

Added to this, I\'d recently tried out Vallejo paints. I was amazed at how much easier they were to blend than the Citadels I\'d been using, and the range and tone of colours was staggering. Having painted a few figures now using the Vallejos, I realized that the quality of the techniques weren\'t really huge leaps beyond what I was already doing; however that level of quality was easier and more efficient to achieve, which in turn resulted in more inspired work.

Yet the miniatures are still painted; any pigment applied skillfully can result in an excellent figure. The only difference is that the effort involved was lessened with the professional paints, giving the painter a freedom of expression he or she might not have if struggling with poorer quality paints. Only indirectly due to benefiting the painter does the miniature truly improve with the use of better paints.

A bit of a Zen statement bubbled to mind as a result. I believe it might be one of the hidden \"truths\" of painting which I can\'t recall hearing actually said aloud until now. Perhaps it\'s something we\'ve all known subconsciously; something unspoken but globally shared. In any case, to test its validity, I throw it out to these boards:

\"The brand of paint is not for the benefit of the miniature, but the benefit of the painter.\"

Agree or disagree?

Kep

 

[Dragonsreach]

E-Arkham:

\"The brand of paint is not for the benefit of the miniature, but the benefit of the painter.\"

I kind of agree, as I use a variety of paints from Artists Acrylics through Citadel, Vallejo, Foundry to some \'Craft\' paints.
But it\'s not just the paint it\'s also the talent, skill and inspiration of the painter.

To quote (badly ) \"Genius is 10% Inspiration and 90% Persipration.\"

If you look at the gallery of artists like Hardy & Phillipe you will see varying mediums being used (Hardy uses Oils).
In essence the variance in paints is not a great deal, most painters thin and add retarders/ flow improvers.
Citadel Paints are not the greatest in the world but they do exactly what they are intended to do. Allow people to paint armies.
It\'s when the collecting of Armies changes into the desire to paint to higher competative quality work that their shortcomings become more apparent. Having said that, great work is still being done using them.

 

[abstract_incendiarie]

I think whatever happens I will be letting the paint down.
AI

 

[Calavera]

I think you\'ve just gotta learn how to use the paints you can get. Only thing I can get is GW and I\'m very happy with them.
I can get the craft paints but I don\'t want to since they cost about the same. But I\'ve often seen painters do great stuff with them.

 

[wiccanpony]

I use craft paint just because the other kinds don\'t have certain colors that I like to use ..example-- craft paint: hooker green and indigo blue. I don\'t have a problem using the two types together.

 

[vincegamer]

Heck, I used to paint minis with those children\'s water color sets: you know, the ones where the paints are these solid chalky blocks and you wet the plastic brush and drag it across the block to pick up pigment.

I got some pretty good results too. Cheap as can be. Of course I\'m not so destitute and have switched entirely to pre-liquified paints. I\'m not ready to give up my apple barrel paints yet because there are some colors you just can\'t get from the 2 big guys.

 

[E-Arkham]

\"The brand of paint is not for the benefit of the miniature, but the benefit of the painter.\"

What I suppose I\'m getting at with this is less the merits of the various types of paints and more that the choice of paint creates a \"comfort level\" for the painter. Painters have a myriad of reasons for choosing a particular paint, whether pragmatic (\"It\'s all that\'s convenient in my area\") or near mythical (\"I can tell a difference in hue between four month old Vallejo and a newly opened Vallejo bought at the same time\"). Yet whatever drives their choice, they are establishing a basis for their working techniques.

I\'m also making a couple of assumptions here. The main one is that no matter the brand or quality of paint, there exists (or has potential to exist) a figure painted to a beautiful standard with it. Talent and experience of course plays a major role in this, as it should.

Let\'s take two hypothetical painters: one uses a simple five colour oil-based palette (red, blue, yellow, white, and burnt umber) and mixes all of his shades. The second painter uses a high end brand (such as Vallejo) with 220 colors and rarely mixes paints.

If the end result is equally stunning figures, then that would remove the choice of brand as a factor in the quality of the miniature. Both choices of brand have nothing to do with the miniature, but everything to do with the painter himself.

I don\'t want things to devolve into an argument between craft and professional paints if we can help it; I want to boil the concept down to its absolute basis. Why is it that the paint brand matters (or doesn\'t) to us?

And perhaps when it is boiled down, this is no relevation, but I find it an intriguing idea for some reason. Hopefully I\'m not waxing with no purpose.

Kep

 

[finn17]

There is no mystery....

At the end of the day it is simply personal preference, or availability.

It\'s like asking, \'Who makes the best camera, Canon or Nikon? There is NO right answer.......A Nikon fan will stick to their guns as will the Canonites...
And for good reason....to them, their camera/brand of paints is what they feel happiest using....

 

[supervike]

nikon, of course....

I have heard mention of \"professional results\" using the \'craft paints\' such as Delta, Apple Barrel, etcs...

but I cannot recall anyone ever posting a pic of a mini done with those, nor can I remember seeing those paints listed in the description of the mini.

Its not that I don\'t believe it, rather, I am kind of a \'see it to believe it\' type fellow.

Could someone point me to some pics?

 

[supervike]

me again....

I would much rather spend 50 cents on a relatively large bottle of paint, than the 3.00 on a smaller jar of Citadel or Vallejo.

It is just been my experience that those \'craft\' paints don\'t make the cut.

Please someone prove me wrong.

 

[Calavera]

Bushido still uses craft paints for everything AFAIK.

 

[finn17]

Another concern.....

As an avid collector...I have lots of painted minis dating back over thirty years.....All the ones that I know have been painted with Citadel etc...are OK, but a number have faded dramatically and I suspect that these were painted with craft paints.....Just a thought...

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by finn17
As an avid collector...I have lots of painted minis dating back over thirty years.....All the ones that I know have been painted with Citadel etc...are OK, but a number have faded dramatically and I suspect that these were painted with craft paints.....Just a thought...

Might not be the fault of the paint. You know yourself that Photographic emulsions deteriorate with continued exposure to UV light .. The Same thing happens to some colour bases. Red is still a \"Fugitive Colour\", just take a look at a Coke tin left in bright sunlight. That fades very rapidly.

While I\'m not denying that the Craft Paints may have the same fugitive qualites, there is also nothing to say that GW\'s various manufacturers haven\'t had a weak batch of paint quality somewhere down the road.

Having visited the Nottingham Archive before the Warhammer World refit there were several figures on display from the 80\'s which were rather pale in colour. Perhaps Tammy could shed some light on this issue.................(pun was intended!)

 

[Katana_Angel]

but I cannot recall anyone ever posting a pic of a mini done with those, nor can I remember seeing those paints listed in the description of the mini.

Could someone point me to some pics?

Numbers 65701, 65700, 64610, and more to come shortly.

I use craft acrylic- not by choice, but by neccesity. When I started out, I didn\'t know how much I\'d be \'in\' to doing this, and dropping 3 dollars/bottle for color was outrageous-- especially when I could use up all the acrylic lying around my house (mom\'s big into crafts).

The past weekend I used some Reaper paint for a speed- paint competetion, and I liked how smooth it worked, plus the pigment was much more rich when watered down then craft acrylic.

But besides these few things, I think craft acrylics are a great way to \'start out\' in the miniature field-- cheap and you get decent results. It\'s what I\'m starting my boyfriend on.

However, once I return from my study abroad, I plan on dropping a small fortune into Vallejo paints.

 

[Valander]

\"The brand of paint is not for the benefit of the miniature, but the benefit of the painter.\"

For what it\'s worth, I actually think there\'s a lot of truth to this statement.

I think that a good painter will be able to get a good paintjob, regardless of what paints he/she uses. A solid understanding of techniques, color theory, and composition will go a LONG way towards making an impressive mini.

I\'ve used craft paints, artists\' acrylics (tubes), GW, old Armory, Floquil, Reaper, and Vallejo. Just recently, I did a model using nothing but craft paints, just to see how much difference they really made when compared to Vallejos.

What I found is that I was able to get pretty much the same results as I do with Vallejos. BUT! (And here, I think, is E-Arkham\'s point), it was much more work for me. I had a more difficult time dealing with keeping the paint really thin and still controllable, and regardless of additives, it just didn\'t flow as easily, so I had to be a lot more particular with my brush work. In short, because I had a harder time working with these materials, it was less of a \"pleasure\" for me, even though I got pretty much the same results.

So, I\'ll choose to use whatever tools enable me to enjoy painting. After all, if I\'m not enjoying it, then I likely won\'t be as inspired to do it, and therefore even less likely to actually do it!

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Katana_Angel

but I cannot recall anyone ever posting a pic of a mini done with those, nor can I remember seeing those paints listed in the description of the mini.

Could someone point me to some pics?

Numbers 65701, 65700, 64610, and more to come shortly.

Thanks for pointing to the pics, I appreciate that, and I don\'t mean to pick on you Katana-Angel, so please don\'t take it that way, but I still don\'t know if craft paint is beneficial or not.

I mean, that there are some rougher spots in your pics, parts where the paint looks too thick, is this because of the paints?

I\'d love to see you tackle a mini with a bunch of Vallejos, and then compare the two...

I also looked at Bushido\'s work and there is some very nice stuff there, but are we sure that he/she only uses craft paints?

My real point is, am I shelling out big bucks for paint that has no real advantage over cheaper priced craft paints? If so, then I am obviously a fool (which is probably true regardless)....

My experience with craft paints has been lukewarm at best. They work fine for large areas, (like doing a large base, or a terrain piece) but lose quality with smaller applications. But maybe I am wrong....

 

[finn17]

I am sure Cyril etc could produce a masterpiece with chalk...

But given the quantities of paint you actually use for mini painting, craft paints aren\'t economical at all, unless you envisage painting for a hundred years.

You could use the same argument about craft paint V household paint???

Given the price of minis etc...why take risks...

 

[E-Arkham]

What I found is that I was able to get pretty much the same results as I do with Vallejos. BUT! (And here, I think, is E-Arkham\'s point), it was much more work for me.

Precisely. <g>

I guess I end up getting long winded and waxing on ideas as they occur to me, and that sometimes clouds my point. I\'ll try to be much more direct in the future. Perhaps it\'s the whole Zen state of mind that makes me more philosophical than clear.

Kep

 

[Lutra Enterprises]

I once got into a heated debate with Lazlo Jsomethingorother of Hot Lead on the merits of craft paint versus expensive paint. Lazlo, if you\'re reading this and you remember that, I want to apologize. You were right. Better paint does make a difference and craft paints do hamper one (well, me anyway) in the long run.

Craft paints are fine for model horses (which I also do) but in small scale for miniatures, they are just too granular, I think, to get the fine blending needed for best results. I continue to use them for anything where it\'s not vital; fur, cloth, wood, etc... but for flesh tones and for trying to learn NMM I\'m going to be outlaying the money for Vallejo. Longer blending time, smoother blending, less \'clumping\'... I was one of the hardest to convince but I really think I\'m sold, having bought just black and white Vallejo to play with.

I think it\'s like... can a person who is hearing-impaired write good music? Well, sure, Beethoven managed quite well. But for most people, being able to hear would be a big help.

just my thoughts...

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by supervike
I have heard mention of \"professional results\" using the \'craft paints\' such as Delta, Apple Barrel, etcs...

but I cannot recall anyone ever posting a pic of a mini done with those,

Well, I can\'t point you to one done exclusively with craft paints, but I\'d guess every mini I have posted has some Apple Barrel paint on it. I use all paints interchangably. My Troll is mostly craft paints, but both my painting and my photography have improved much since. I\'ll look for some minis I have duplicates of and try painting one exclusively with crafts and one exclusively with vallejo just to see. However, since I use all my paints they won\'t be the same colors (why buy a bottle of Vallejo when I already have the color from someone else?).
I can say now that I have noticed the craft paints need more mixing and have a greater tendency to separate in the bottle, so the specialty paints are a bit easier to work with & take less time.