Thought Police, Report in!

[ScottRadom]

Hope it\'s okay that I do a little pointless ranting here.

First-I am 0% religious. I don\'t actually care if they kick religion out of the schools or if they call Christmas \"Happy gift day\" because the religious conotations mean zilch to me. It\'s not my fight so I won\'t involve myself in it if it ever comes time in my area.

However, what I find absolutley appaling is that they won\'t let kids get excited about recieving presents. WTF is that about? As North Americans in a consumer driven society (Which I am all about baby!) we have one event each year where we get to pull out al the stops and make a fantastic magical time for our kids. I WANT my kids, and all kids, to get excited about toys, opening presents, staying up late on Christmas eve in anticipation of what\'s gonna happen tomorrow and all that.

It makes me giddy walking down the aisles of Star Wars lego picking out what I want to get the boy this year. I want him to be even more excited then I am about it.

I\'m being 100% serious when I say that I love living in a western society of excess. As a secular dude I love the fact that my biggest concern is how I\'m going to top the year before and not any of the serious issues surrounding people in less happy world regions.

How can we take the excitement away from kids? Why can\'t kids at school be allowed to talk about what they\'re hoping for, what they\'re getting mom and dad? That truly sickens me. C\'mon, let\'s let the kids bubble over with anticipation.

 

[krom1415]

I\'m, stunned, but its going on in the UK too, bit by bit our excuses for eating large amounts of turkey....I mean our celebration of JC\'s birthday lol............herhkmmm...... our religeous pagan festival whatever we call it. Surely this time of year is all about giving\' to others and showing you care by celebrating

All I can say is\'

\"Merry Christmas one and all\"

 

[Infidel Castro]

The precendent was set centuries ago, way before consumerism. Fight for the right!

 

[ScottRadom]

I don\'t know if this is relevant or not, but I heard that Thursday was named such after the Norse god Thor (God of thunder and Marvel Comics ass kicking machine!) as the \"day of storms\". I won\'t bother googling it to research that statements authenticity but wouldn\'t it seem strange if we spent 1 out of 7 days giving homage to a Norse god, but refuse to acknowledge one day out of 365/366 to pay homage to the birth of the son of a God in a nation \"United under one god\".

Maybe I\'m getting the facts all mangled here.

We\'ve got two school systems here, one for Catholics and one for Public. You choose which system to support on your income tax statements. The Catholic system teaches classes in Christian Ethics (A girl who worked for me actually got caught cheating on a Christian Ethics class! Lake of fire for her!) and they start the day with the lords prayer. So at least the option here is available for those who choose to use it, and about 1/2 our population does choose to use the Catholic system.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

You\'re right.

Monday was Mars Day, for the god of war.
Tuesday was for Tuis, goddess of who-the-hell-knows?
Wednesday was Woden\'s day (Odin).
Thursday was Thor\'s Day.
Friday was Freya.
Saturday was Saturn.
Sunday was, if memory serves, for Apollo, that chariot riding god of the sun.

Last christmas, I was approached by a local jewish delegation, asking me to not put up my Christmas lights. I said, \"If you\'ll all take your manoras out of your windows, and take all those Mezuzza\'s off your front doors, I\'ll be happy to respect your request to not partake of my own religious holiday as I see fit.\"

They left quite politely, and we haven\'t argued since.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Now that\'s a community at one with itself says I. YHWH be praised.

 

[Sand Rat]

IO SATURNALIA!!

 

[Infidel Castro]

Saturnalia....a cracking album that. One of The Wedding Present\'s finest. A tear to me eye it doth bring!

 

[cybersquig]

Originally posted by uberdark

Originally posted by cybersquig


Seriously though, have you ever noticed how it\'s rarely the people who have reason to be offended that make the noise, it\'s those who think others should be offended that kick off.

hold on there a minute bud. watch how you word things, i believe in separation of church and state, but not to the degree many of these ppl do. as for the fact of the matter, these students or parents come from jehovahs witnesses and they do have a reason to object. just as much as we have a right to object to other things. every religion has been bashed or hurt in some way throughout history. look at muslim girls in school in france who were told not to wear their head wrappings. this is just like the whole christmas thing at this school.

i bypass it all by celebrating everything in my school as an art teacher. we put up things for all religious holidays at this time of year. basic multiculturalism. plain and simple you cannot make everyone happy, but to group all of us who disagree with separation of church and state into one big group is a BROAD generalization. there are always varying degrees. its not equality that we need to achieve in schools, but equity.

With the greatest of respect Uber, I\'m not sure I understand what you\'re saying overall. by state do you mean government or the part of the population who isn\'t of a particular faith?

What I was getting at was that (the JW example aside), political correctness can so often develop from ignorance and a desire to be all things to all men(sic), which although well intentioned, just highlights the ignorance and creates a situation of anomie.

An example if I may, a well intentioned but overbearing non-disabled/impaired person campaigning fervently for the rights of disabled/impaired people actually has the opposite effect by causing others to resent the restrictions, reinforcing rather than removing any of the barriers that their initial aim was to tackle. Psychologists call it self-defeating behaviour.

What I was saying was that this was the element of the situation that I find the most depressing.

Certainly no offence was meant!

blimey, this was harder to write than when I post about toy soldiers!



James

 

[BarstoolProphet]

I\'ll never believe in the USA\'s statement about \'church and state should be separate\', until they take \'In God We Trust\' off their money.

Should be more like \'They Live\', anyway, where the hidden message on the cash is \'THIS IS YOUR GOD!\'.

 

[Amazon warrior]

Politically correct Christmasparty

An oldie but a goodie!

 

[freakinacage]

oh for the love of jebus

 

[mattsterbenz]

Originally posted by Amazon warrior
Politically correct Christmasparty

An oldie but a goodie!

lol lol lol

That made my day!

-Matt

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Originally posted by BarstoolProphet
I\'ll never believe in the USA\'s statement about \'church and state should be separate\', until they take \'In God We Trust\' off their money.
Should be more like \'They Live\', anyway, where the hidden message on the cash is \'THIS IS YOUR GOD!\'.

Some of the courts that vote to ban nativity scenes and such, if you look at the frieze above the entrance are adorned with Greek gods.

 

[slah]

Originally posted by mattsterbenz
My little sister is in 8th grade. I just heard that her school announced that NO ONE is allowed to speak of Christmas at school. No one can mention what gifts they asked their parents to get.

And I thought it was bad enough when the public schools here banned Halloween costumes (because of a half dozen student\'s whose religion prohibits them from celebrating holidays).

How much worse can things get? Guess we better start censoring everything Chr*stian.

-Matt

\'

Hmm - without really deciding whether or not I´m for or against I could make a decent defence for what the school has done.

As far as you describe it the \"point\" of the ban has nothing to do with religion, but consumerism.

8th grade is about the age where children/young people can be really really cruel to the odd kid left out, and nothing stings worse than having to admit your parents don´t have the money to buy the same cool stuff the rest of the class gets - you´re basically labelling your parents - and by extension yourself - as failures.

Basically the scholl has removed one thing that has a high potential of further alienating the less priviliged children at the cost of not speaking of christmas. - Depending on the school and the normal \"atmosphere\" in it it could be the right thing to do.

We have no background information of the schol itself - does it have a history of \"abuse\" by fellow-students? - If it does I don´t really find the ban that offensive - I would rather protect the minority who can´t afford to participate in the gift-race than protect the rights of spoiled/priviliged brats to brag about what their parents can afford (I´m simplifying and excaggerating for effect here people )

 

[green stuff]

Message original : uberdark
look at muslim girls in school in france who were told not to wear their head wrappings.

That was motivated because our law states that public schools should be religion free. So this applies to any religious sign (cross, David\'s star, veil, ...).

There was much debate about the subject here and about a half dozen cases where the students were excluded. But once the political, association, and media hype calmed down there weren\'t anymore, because either the students agreed to take off their veil before entering classes, or they went to semi-private schools that allowed veils.

It\'s a subject that comes up quite often in french society. One of the last ones was about not wearing veils on ID cards ... you\'d be surprised how much arguments that caused.

 

[mattsterbenz]

Originally posted by slah

Originally posted by mattsterbenz
My little sister is in 8th grade. I just heard that her school announced that NO ONE is allowed to speak of Christmas at school. No one can mention what gifts they asked their parents to get.

And I thought it was bad enough when the public schools here banned Halloween costumes (because of a half dozen student\'s whose religion prohibits them from celebrating holidays).

How much worse can things get? Guess we better start censoring everything Chr*stian.

-Matt

\'

Hmm - without really deciding whether or not I´m for or against I could make a decent defence for what the school has done.

As far as you describe it the \"point\" of the ban has nothing to do with religion, but consumerism.

8th grade is about the age where children/young people can be really really cruel to the odd kid left out, and nothing stings worse than having to admit your parents don´t have the money to buy the same cool stuff the rest of the class gets - you´re basically labelling your parents - and by extension yourself - as failures.

Basically the scholl has removed one thing that has a high potential of further alienating the less priviliged children at the cost of not speaking of christmas. - Depending on the school and the normal \"atmosphere\" in it it could be the right thing to do.

We have no background information of the schol itself - does it have a history of \"abuse\" by fellow-students? - If it does I don´t really find the ban that offensive - I would rather protect the minority who can´t afford to participate in the gift-race than protect the rights of spoiled/priviliged brats to brag about what their parents can afford (I´m simplifying and excaggerating for effect here people )

I think you probably hit the nail on the head. Many of the students (probably 40% i\'d say) are from low-income Hispanic families (most of which are Catholic actually). Which would explain why they would ban talking about gifts.

As far as kids teasing each other, I don\'t think much of that goes on. It was only 7 or 8 years ago that I was in 8th grade, but I\'m sure things could (and probably have) changed since then.

But I don\'t quite see the fairness of oppressing the majority to protect a minority. I don\'t think anyone should be oppressed. This is the real world, kid\'s can\'t be kept in a perfect fantasy world forever (with the exception of us miniatures painters).

I like the way Uberdark handles things in his class. Everyone expresses their beliefs, everything is included.

If someone passes me by and wishes me a happy Kwanzaa, or Ramadan, etc... I\'ll wish the same right back to them. I don\'t celebrate it, but hearing about it doesn\'t bother me at all. The same should be with every religious holiday. Even Christmas.

Rather than abolishing everything (or just abolishing Christmas), we need to embrace our differences and learn from eachother. Celebrate everything!

-Matt

 

[slah]

the problem is that the way christmas is celebrated today you can´t do it without the presents - it´s just not possible.
In my experience some of the worst when it comes to making other people feel like complete shit are indeed children - most of the time they can´t help it - most children would indeed score fairly high on a test for sociopathic tendencies (that´s just how their brains are wired).

With highschoolers shooting highscoolers on a fairly regular basis, schools are apparently looking inwards to see if there is any way of adding cohesion to these groups (after all you´re unlikely to take \"unwanted\" action towards people whom you don´t see as an \"enemy\") or at least trying to avoid breaking the cohension there allready is.

Telling the children not to talk about christmas (and the presents), help the children to not make even further distinctions of \"us\" (the poor) vs. \"them\" (the rich) - and vice versa.

If it´s the right thing to do depends VERY much on the situation, but I can easily see situations where it would be justified (even in Denmark where we haven´t had any school-shootings - apart from 1 35-year old collegestudent).



And as a finishing note I just have to say that I don´t find that telling children what to do and not to do is opression but a natural thing we have to take upon us as parents and teachers, and even though that might be \"annoying\" and unpopular to some of the children I would rather annoy 100 students who then can´t tell their friends in school about their presents(do it at home then), instead of not trying my best to help the 5 students who cry themselves at sleep every night because their schoollife is basically a nightmare because of the other students.

 

[cybersquig]

Originally posted by slah

In my experience some of the worst when it comes to making other people feel like complete shit are indeed children - most of the time they can´t help it - most children would indeed score fairly high on a test for sociopathic tendencies (that´s just how their brains are wired).

What results from which psychometric test are you referring to? That can\'t be the case by definition with a norm referenced, normally distributed psychometric test, which they have to be in order to pass scrutiny with the APA or the BPS. If it hasn\'t passed one of them, then ignore the results because there\'s no garauntee that they are either valid or reliable. If as I suspect it is a general feeling that you have, then maybe look up what psychologists/psychiatrists mean by sociopathic tendencies or sociopathy, and remember that you can have high sociopathic tendencies without being sociopathic.

 

[slah]

I´m not saying that children are sociopaths, what I´m saying is that the younger the children are, the more their behavioral pattern resembles that of a common sociopath - that´s the reason sociopathy isn´t easily diagnosed before the age of 15-16.

\"Sociopaths are characterized by a disregard for social obligation and a lack of concern for the feelings of others. They display pathological egocentricity, shallow emotions, lack of insight, poor control of impulsiveness (including a low tolerance for frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression), irresponsibility, a lack of empathy for other human beings and of remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to his/her antisocial behavior. They are usually callous, manipulative individuals, incapable of lasting friendship and of love. They shamelessly lie, cheat, steal, abuse, neglect their relatives and families, and endanger themselves and other people in a reckless manner. Hare characterizes them as \"intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret.\"

Anybody with a kid will know that they at least from time to time fit these criteria

Quote: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n07/doencas/index.html

The younger a kid is the more thoughtprocesses in it´s mind is - generally - dedicated to itself and it´s own gratification. With that in mind, the average kid doesn´t think about the feelings of the other child that´s being ridiculed because of it´s parents failures of being able to provide a satisfying christmas present.

But the focus is slipping:

I don´t see this as an attack on christianity at all. If christmas was only being discussed by the children in school as the birth of Christ and nothing else my opinion on the ban would be different. As I see it the point of the ban is to avoid some children lording over others because they´re getting an x-box, while others will be getting the short end of the stick.

Basically the point is to prevent the very normal selfcentered part of the children making it harder then nescessary for the least-priviliged children. Christmas gets targeted because they make the differences VERY VERY clear.