Tom Kirby\'s remark on removal of online retail...

[Zilo]

Well in case you havent read it yet...

http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?pageID=76&GroupID=10

Now something that strikes me as odd is that when he says ;


\"The Hobby in America has grown year upon year ever since we started trading in the United States...This is the story of a healthy, growing company that brings innocent pleasure to thousands\"



Ok, i\'ll hand them that. But what exactly does that have to do with cutting online retailers sales? Is he trying to say online retailers dont count in that agenda to satisfy? Do they not think that those same online retailers play the game and that in fact this recent notion of theirs to cut these people off from a decent way of making a revenue is going to turn them bitter towards GW\'s ever \'prospering\' image?

\"Surely it is beeter to look at the facts.\"

Oh, of course it is. Who cares about customer relations when you have factual evidence of your ever swelling pocket books! JERK!

\" I am fortunate in that I do not have to depend on internet chat rooms for the views of \'American gamers\'.\"

Oh yes, you are very fortunate! For we are robots and figments of your imagination that do not exist . We do not use chat rooms as a means to explore and talk to other people and discuss interesting issues, like gee I dont know, Corporate Capitalism and loss of customer relations in that aspect. JERK!

To me GW is ignoring the fact of what thousands are saying about them and choosing to only hear the praise. Thats one-handed and egotistical in my books. If GW really cared they\'d listen and try react to these petitions rather then put them off because they have become so \'cliche\' to happen. Hey GW, if these petitions of loud people happen alot isnt that saying that maybe you ARE doing something wrong and that we arent just raving lunatics.

I say stop playing your own damn fiddle and try realise you\'re trying to peddle plastic for about the same amount as gold would be worth in its weight.

GW, needs to listen to the gamers more aside putting us off as disgruntled \'others\' . They state that their market trades this year has been higher then expected...

So it brings me to ask..

Are they really trying to make us happier with this move , or is just plain and absolute greed trying plate platinum with gold and then stud it with diamonds?

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

The whole Policy document, an interesting read:

GW US Distributor & Retailer Policy April 2003

 

[paleotaur]

Of course it\'s utter and unadulterated greed. Did you really have to ask?
This sums up nicely why I have taken several (sarcastic) comments that were made when this whole thing started and have not bought GW product in several months, nor do I intend to in future, EVER. I, simply put, have had more than enough of their crap and would hope that others would feel similarly.
I would be perfectly content to watch the entire company die in a smoking conflagration of gamer appathy. Some say we owe them for the advancement of our hobby. In large part this is true, however; every large organization, be it a corporation or an empire, at some point becomes to big for its britches and need no longer be tolerated. I think GW has finally revealed itself to have reached this place and we can feel free to let it go and skulk away to diminish by its own hand. We have outgrown it.

But that\'s just one little bear\'s opinion.:innocent:

 

[Shroud]

\"\" I am fortunate in that I do not have to depend on internet chat rooms for the views of \'American gamers\'.\"


Yeah, I disagree about this one too. Most gamers are on the internet these days, discussing these types of topics. To me the internet is as common amongst \"geeks\" as telephones and televisions. Ignoring what you see your customers posting there is folly, imho.

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

Originally posted by Shroud
Most gamers are on the internet these days, discussing these types of topics. To me the internet is as common amongst \"geeks\" as telephones and televisions. Ignoring what you see your customers posting there is folly, imho.

ABSOLUTELY in agreement with you here.

There\'s an old saying in customer service, if one customer is complaining, the are at least ten more that are having the same problem and just going elsewhere.

 

[Tuubje]

Originally posted by Shroud
\"\" I am fortunate in that I do not have to depend on internet chat rooms for the views of \'American gamers\'.\"


Yeah, I disagree about this one too. Most gamers are on the internet these days, discussing these types of topics. To me the internet is as common amongst \"geeks\" as telephones and televisions. Ignoring what you see your customers posting there is folly, imho.

And thus , because of this, more gamers realise there\'s more to the hobby than GW, no?

 

[matts]

Hi,
first of all I have to tell you I´m retailer by myself. My wife and me, we hav a nice store and sell toys. This includes the fantasy and tabletopp as well. Next I´m a former trade sales member of GW. Therefore I´m quite informed how the thing is going on. When I read Gw´s information for stock holder I can only laugh :
\"Equally important to the success of GAMES WORKSHOP is our vibrant network of distributors and retailers committed to preserving the integrity of the GAMES WORKSHOP brand and the promotion of the hobby that it serves. As a result, GAMES WORKSHOP has long supported and encouraged retailers who have invested time, effort and money in building their businesses by supporting and selling the GAMES WORKSHOP hobby. Retailers committed to these goals have made investments in the form of knowledgeable and well-trained in-store staffing and in-store gaming areas for game enthusiasts, as well as those customers being newly introduced to the hobby. In-store retail distribution by properly equipped and committed retailers is a primary vehicle through which GAMES WORKSHOP seeks to market and promote its products in the United States.

In recent years, we have seen a dramatic increase in the number of retailers marketing and selling GAMES WORKSHOP products on the Internet. Internet marketing, however, does not provide the same level of support for the hobby as in-store marketing and requires none of the additional investment necessary to operate a “brick-and-mortar” retail facility. As a result, some Internet retailers are content to enjoy a free-ride on the efforts of those in-store retailers who do make the investment in promoting the hobby, and then siphon off their well educated and serviced customers and potential customers by selling the same products over the Internet. Besides the inherent unfairness of this free-rider effect, GAMES WORKSHOP remains concerned that if this disparity continues to exist, it will undermine the investment made to date by certain retailers, discourage future similar investments by new retailers, and ultimately destroy the retail method most effective for our products.
\"

But this is exactly what GW does with their retailers. They let them invest time and money to build up hobby, in-store-playing and whatever is possible. Then when the numbers are o.k. they open a GWstore nexr to your own. Isn´t it \"enjoy a free-ride on the efforts of those in-store retailers who do make the investment in promoting the hobby, and then siphon off their well educated and serviced customers and potential customers by selling the same products ...\"? How many retailers were killed in UK,Germany and wherever you want?
And the stuff about investing money in \"GAMES WORKSHOP invests heavily in the continuing design and development of new and imaginative games, artwork, and imagery that is consistent with the high standards of quality and innovation that have become synonymous with the GAMES WORKSHOP brand\" I would laugh if it wasn´t that sad. Ever heard od Blood Royale, Talisman and so on? These are game systems that were innovative. I´ll never argue that they make nice figures, but to call their systems innovative is funny. Now German GW launched the \"new\" Blood Bowl; they put \"Blood Bowl\" and \"Death Zone\" in one Box, used exactly the same miniatures and launched it as the f...ing holly s..t new release. Excuse me, THIS IS INNOVATIV???????

By the way the tanks, cavalry and some otherblisters will get more expensive next time.
thank you for reading, greetings from Germany

 

[Caenem]

I worked for Wizards of the Coast Retail chain, and we carried GW products in our store. For the year or so I worked there, I only saw a few consistencies:
Tanks/vehicles were grossly overpriced and just kept getting more expensive. For something that was basically the size of a shoebox at most, $30+ was rediculous.
Paints were bumped up 25 cents. Metallics I think were bumped up 50 cents.
More and more special characters kept appearing, blisters for a single mini close to $20, when the company was fond of saying they were cutting down on special characters because they felt it was unbalancing their game.
I\'m not pleased GW is doing what they\'re doing, but I\'ve long since given up on them. When I can purchase 2 QUALITY sculpted minis from another company, for the same price as one GW blister, my decision was made for me. There are tons of mini games out there. Sure, GW could be the company that put the hobby \"on the map\" for a new generation, but there are plenty of other options that are alot friendlier.

 

[Sturmhalo]

It seems that the problem here is that age old conflict between profit and customer relations.

What GW are doing is very much in their own interests, after all there\'s nothing wrong with a company wanting to make a profit and do well for itself. But! One thing that big companies are prone to do is to sometimes put the desire for an even bigger profit above the desire to promote good customer relations. I suppose if GW are secure in the knowledge that they\'ll make a good increase in profit regardless of what they do, then it\'s easy to ignore folks like us whining about it!

Still, what can you do?!

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by Sturmhalo

Still, what can you do?!

well I think we should at least try something. Maybe we could send the a e-mail signed by all of us. And we should keep in mind that most people that work for GW are actually decdicated hobyist. I did say \"most\", because there are obviously some #$@$# who only think about making money . Has for the price of GW mini they\'re as expensive as confrontation minis, and the paints are avrage price.

 

[number9]

What I am doing

\"Still, what can you do?!\"

Well there are a number of simple or drastic things you can do, but one doesn\'t have to abandon the game to make an impact against Games Workshop the only place they\'ll truly listen: Stop buying their models. Play their games with figures from other companies. Encourage local shops to encourage tournaments that lift the requirement of \"GW-only\" models. Do some research around the internet and compare prices and quality with other manufacturers you may never have heard of. In fact there is an entire Yahoo group trying to get the ball rolling among players in this regard, and to create a GT next year, the same weekend as the Baltimore GT, at the Airport Holiday Inn (where GTs used to be before the convention center), STRONGLY ENCOURAGING the use of ANY other company\'s models for WFB.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FUGW/

There are a lot of helpful people there and a lot of information for those interested in making this kind of statement. Believe me, there are many great alternatives out there for fantasy models... imagine an entire WFB undead army built from Confrontation models... drool...

--number9

 

[supervike]

I understand the frustration consumers would have with GW. BUT, they sell stuff using the old tried and true supply and demand method.

It is not like they are selling medicine or food, these are not products that people need.

Going to Matts point about GW\'s committment to the Brick and Morter establishments that have invested the time and money to educate customers on the products.

I tend to agree with GW\'s business model. They know that the local mom and pop shop, who does alot for the community, is being undercut by saavy consumers trying to save a buck shopping on the internet. GW knows the best way to recruit tons of money spending newbies is to have the local shops get the spenders excited about the products.

So, if the local mom and pop shop does well, GW builds next door? That is called competition and it is ALWAYS better for the consumer. Mom and Pop will have to be innovative and make the customers want to go to their store.

Now, all I am saying is that I understand GW\'s approach to this. It makes good fiscal sense. I can\'t say I agree with it 100 percent, as I am guilty as can be when it comes to trying to save my hard earned cash by shopping on-line.

In an ideal world, the Warhammer stuff would be sold for a dollar over cost. But as long as the demand is there for a 10 dollar nurgle head, they are going to supply it for that.

I am in total support of using other miniatures to play the games. Heck, use cardboard markers if that is all you can afford. But why do we blame GW for raising costs and trying to control there own products?

 

[finn17]

Nero fiddled..Rome burned..

S*d them! Don\'t moan, vote with your feet. I feel desperately sorry for independent retailers in the US but I am sure most of them will switch to alternatives and GW will suffer at the end of the day. Their main stores will feel the pinch if all the independent retailers are pushing Confrontation/Dark Age/Reaper/Void etc.
There are some BRILLIANT alternatives out there...
I personally believe that GW are in their death throes and just don\'t know it yet. Am I biased? Yes. GW have alienated me.
Do I have evidence? Yes. Just check the forum postings on CMON. They currently stand at:

40K 391 posts.
WFD 155 posts.
Confrontation 795 posts.

Bearing in mind the extensive headstart GW have, if you were an investor, whose shares would you buy?

I will really miss them. They, more than anyone else, are responsible for the hobby we all enjoy, but they let the \'suits\' take over and lost their way. I only hope their minis become real collectors pieces as I have truckloads. Unlikely however, as they are so many of the damn things around:bouncy:

 

[number9]

\"They, more than anyone else, are responsible for the hobby we all enjoy...\"

I agree with everything else you said Finn, but this bit... \"I\", more than anyone else, am responsible for \"MY\" enjoyment of the hobby... If not GW than my bucks would have gone elsewhere (and now currently do), maybe FASA, maybe Grenadier or Partha (of which many bucks did go to)... Perhaps I would have gotten involved in Historical gaming sooner (which is having a helluva renaissance these days)... 1 of any number of decent wargaming systems/companies that emerged in the mid/late \'80s could have been the shining glorious standard of popularity and profitability that is modern-day GW.

GW is not responsible more than any other for the hobby we enjoy, they just capitalized best on the enjoyment we take away from the hobby... Certainly thats not a crime, and huzzah! for their magnificent business model... I\'m just no longer a part of their desired demographic as I have other gaming interests and other quality models to pursue.

--number9

 

[Sand Rat]

Supervike - got to disagree with you totally here - \"They know that the local mom and pop shop, who does alot for the community, is being undercut by saavy consumers trying to save a buck shopping on the internet. GW knows the best way to recruit tons of money spending newbies is to have the local shops get the spenders excited about the products.\" - Mom and pop shops are not being undercut by the net - by and large most of the mom and pop shops I\'ve seen have gone the web as a new source of income form folks outside their immediate area. GW moving a shop into an area where a mom and pop shop is is a direct attack on the business that the m&p shop do however - in part because there is no way that GW sells items to their \"in house\" distributers at the same price they do the shops that are not part of their network.

 

[kelmarng]

I\'ve been in the GW hobby for years. They\'ve changed from a gamer orientated company to a bean-counting machine. Haven\'t bought anything GW for over a year now.

This whole \"doing it for the Brick and morta, mom and pa store\" excuse is pure BS. It\'s mere a \"side effect\" of their profit maximing strategy.

The margin for GW to sale to a BNM store is the same as selling to an internet store. Where as selling through GW retail store is then higher, and higher yet, GW mail order.

Assuming they have done their homework, by eliminating GW products sales by internet stores other than the main GW site, money that would be spent at those stores would flow somewhere else. Assuming the consumer still wants GW stuff and willing to spend the same amount of money.

The alternatives would be, local BNM stores, local GW retail or GW\'s net-store. They will lose some money if majority of the money flow to the local BNM because the volume would fall, because without the discounts the same amount of money won\'t buy the same amount of items.

However, the other 2 outlets: GW retail and net-store would dramatically increase their profit. Why? By increasing the volume of business through these 2 channels it better utilize the fixed cost invested: rent, salary, web maintance stays the same.

What they are betting on is that some if not most of internet sales would shift over to the 2 GW channels. To ensure that they offer: Advanced orders, White Dwarf subscriptions, Archive minis, Discounts on products in troll basement (which they themselves slap on a restrictions on other retailer from doing so last year) on their internet store.

Combined with free shipping when ordering over certain amount. People ordering specials and discounted stuff would very much likely to tag on a few regular items just to fill up to the free shipping amount, i.e. take away sale from the local BNM stores.

This whole \"official statement\" was just a PR ploy, nothing more. The real reason, in short, is: \"These internet stores are racking in profits that we could have ourselves. Lets use the \'save the local store excuse\' again to monopolize internet sales!\"

 

[Bjornes]

balogna

I hope GW realizes also that they are ruining the livelihood of many GW enthusiasts who are running onilne stores and what not to A.)get cheap models and B.) Provide models at a bit of a less obscene price (for us starving college students and what not) i also think its funny that buying directly from GW\'s website has become more expensive than buying from a 3rd party retailer... wouldn\'t economics 101 show that its cheaper to sell directly from their warehouses? Instead of playing the 800 pound gorilla they could simply sell their online models for less, fixing this IP problem they seem to have, and giving online retailers like www.thewarstore.com (one of the online retailers GW is directly targetting for selling their products so cheaply) a bit more competition :-|

But who needs competition, GW is huge, they can do whatever they want. :|~

 

[Panza]

I don\'t think people realise how much profit GW is making per figure. Staff used to be able to pick up figures at a tenth of their shop costs by \'buying by weight\'. Inq scale Kal Jericho at £1.25 anyone? GW wouldn\'t have done this unless they were still making a profit, even at this price! I say used to because GW has just doubled the costs of weight orders for their staff, although the 50% in store staff discount is still in operation. I must admit to being a committed GW\'er, but I\'ve started trying to save money by...

A. Buying nothing but plastic. You want a character? Make it from plastics. Special tank? Plastics. Obliterator? Plastics. It\'s actually quite fun trying to figure out how to make what you want in the cheapest way possible It\'s also a challenge to make a complete plastic army, and it pisses off GW store managers who, to a man, need to be given a bloodthirster enema.

B. Get a job at GW! Undermine them from within AND get cheap stuff. Give it a couple of months and then leave for a reason that lets you go back again when the supplies run dry.

C. Befriend one of the keytime staff. These guys are usually a bit pissed at the hours they have to work, and seldom use their discounts because the last thing they want to do after working at the frontline all day is to see another mini. Ask them nicely and you\'ll be rolling in discounts and bits box raids, a great way to get bits for your own characters (see A above).

So to summarise, join the cult of plastic, get a job or make a friend, or of course just don\'t buy GW. The choice, is yours.

 

[freakinacage]

i have to say, i was brought up on gw. not literally of course, thats just silly. but they introduced me to the world of mini painting etc. for the past 4 years or so, i have bought only gw stuff as my local store didn\'t really sell anything else. i do have a special place in my heart (ahh) for gw. i like thier minis and the universe that they have created.

BUT they cost a bomb. it really annoys me that i have to work for 6 hours before i can buy a tank on the wages i am on. they obviously can afford to lower prices as panza said, the discounts they sometimes slap on are huge but they must still be making a profit

they always justify their prices by saying how much the moulds cost etc and im sure the designers and sculpters get paid ok (but probably not that well). if thats true, how can andy from heresy afford to sell his minis so cheap - hes not the cheapest but he is only just starting out.

over the last 6 months/year, i have been looking around on the internet more and my eyes have been opened to the beauty of the minis from rackam, warmachine, heresy, etc. and also their prices are better. gw sales are bound to go down unless they change their strategy sharpish.

in conclusion (deep breath) i still like the gw minis and i intend on keeping my wd subscription but i intend to join the cult of plastic, sculpt more of my own and buy more from other companies. so - UP WITH THE REBELLION!!!

 

[Panza]

VIVE LA REVOLUTION! :bouncy: