Vive la France!!!! Just say non!

[Legacy Account]

Well, we\'re doing just fine all things considered at the moment.

Low unemployment, low interest rates, low inflation, strong pound.

I have no wish to take that hard worked financial stability and piss it away because the rest of mainland Europe is in the shit...

I don\'t think Finn was talking about an \'Empire\' as such. But it does sound to me like a \'Federation\'. With the French and Germans at the helm. Too much history there for us to have a bar of that I\'m afraid!



As for the voting, you should be happy people have been given the chance to make themselves heard and have grasped the opportunity! I don\'t see how this can possibly be interpreted as a \'problem with democracy\'.....

 

[Ritual]

The thing is, well-informed or not, people in many European countries do not want this union! A close collaboration, yes, but we already have this. Things doesn\'t get better when politicians and experts say the people doesn\'t know what\'s best for them, while still failing to give any convincing arguments for why this constitution would make things better. I\'ve read a lot of information about this treaty and I can\'t say it convinces me of anything other than it will cost a s**t load of money to implement.

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by Ritual
The thing is, well-informed or not, people in many European countries do not want this union!

don\'t see what you\'re basing yourself on to say that. If I recall correctly so far we have 10 country who adopted the text as opposed to one who went against it.

As to the advantages of the consitution:
-Writen for a europe with 25 countries as oposed to 12 for maastrich.
- A more democratique europe, as oposed to what we have now.
- Better international exposure and credibility ( see exemple above)
- And a good deal of other things, can\'t go around listing them all.


quit franckly all government in place are campaning for the constitution. Now why would they do that if it\'s not beneficial to their country ? And please don\'t give me that comunist crap about politician beeing corrupt and part of plot to ruin their country
actually exmaning the political parties who were for the no in france is quit interesting. Comunist parties, well no wonder they are anti-republicain, anti-democratie, and basically anti anything ( in france anyway ). Extreme right, well no wonder there either, france\'s extreme right comes in direct line from monarchist, they are anti- republicain too, and strongly nationalist ( In the real sens of the term). Now we get to the less usual parties who decided to campain for the No. Fabius, a socialist leader, number 2 of the socialist mouvement in france, and.... posible candidate to the presidentials, now what better way to gain attention then to campain for a no that could win, puts him in a good position for the left wing candidate the presidential, gota give him credite for convincing people that they could vote no and still be pro-european, I\'ll be waiting to see were his famous \"plan B\" is. Next up is the leader of a party called \"MPF\", a non existant party that nobody talked about, ....until he started campaining for the No, he said it himself the french NO marks the birth of his party as a real political party, nice reason to campain for the No And it basically goes on like that.
Now is even more fun to watch is why people voted No, they didn\'t vote no because they were against europe like finn is, but because they got fed a whole lot of shit. Turkie as nothing to do with the constitution. Some claimed they didn\'t want to lose their subventions, well guess they weren\'t told that those subventions come from europe. Then some voted no because they didn\'t want french entreprise to go somwere where it\'s cheaper to produce Yeah like that\'s not going to happen if we vote no, actually yes might have hellped a bit against that, to late now, they can just watch and wonder why their job are still beeing moved to china, india and basically anywere but france ( Who wants to have lazy employee who are on strike half the year and only want to work 35 hours a week, I mean really I do almost 50 hours with school how do they expect to make a living with 35 ???). Then you have people who were told it wasn\'t social enougth.... now why is the socialist parti in france for it, and why are all the socialist parties of europe for it ??? And finnaly the best and most absurd one to me, the constitution promotes libarilisme No shit !!! Since basically 60 years all political parties in France have been liberalist ( expet the extremist) and people wake up now and ...\" Oh my god we are in a world that works on liberalism \"


So you see people didn\'t vote against europe, they were stupid. And apart from a few exeption let me assure you France is mainly pro-european.

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by frenchkid

Originally posted by Ritual
The thing is, well-informed or not, people in many European countries do not want this union!

don\'t see what you\'re basing yourself on to say that. If I recall correctly so far we have 10 country who adopted the text as opposed to one who went against it.

Opinion polls in several of the countries that have not ratified the treaty yet (including Sweden).

As to the advantages of the consitution:
-Writen for a europe with 25 countries as oposed to 12 for maastrich.
- A more democratique europe, as oposed to what we have now.
If people don\'t have the time, the motivation or the means, to inform themselves or even the will to vote in the elections, Europe will NOT be more democratic! People may argue that it\'s everyone\'s duty to keep themselves informed and to vote, but the fact that people don\'t is something we can\'t overlook. We shouldn\'t build a huge complex on such an unstable foundation!
- Better international exposure and credibility ( see exemple above)
I\'m not sure what you mean by this...
- And a good deal of other things, can\'t go around listing them all.

Non of these arguments say anything of why a union where certain things are governed on the European level, certain things on national level and other things on regional level, is better than a more loose organisation where most things are governed by the countries themselves.

 

[Legacy Account]

I\'ve got a lot of time for you FK, but I\'m afraid your blustery arguements in this case are going to fall on deaf ears. People are wary of it because we all know that manifestos are not worth the paper they are written on, and that in this case a centralised governing body is going to be removing yet more power from our elected governments hands.

It may or may not be the case, but the politicians have not done enough to convince everyone! Blame them, not the people who voted against the treaty!!!

Calling people stupid for expressing an opinion does nothing for your case. As does pointing out all the extremist parties, then calling France \'liberalist\' (well, except for the extremists!)

The majority of people in France may well be pro-European. Just not where this treaty is concerned...

Unfortunately your arguement is coming across as a rather petulant and childish rant. Ever considered a job in politics....

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Spacemunkie
Ever considered a job in politics....

He has .

But I still think FK has some points. Don\'t you think something is wrong in the situation when the debate is described as passionate but hardly anybody has read the treaty? I respect the outcome, but have doubts on how it happened .

 

[Legacy Account]

Most people have better things to do than read masses of verbose, political garbage.....

I also think it\'s a little naive to suggest that all the \'oui\' voters read the treaty, whilst the \'non\' voters are simply politically inept....

 

[Beelzebrush]

I have to admit to being pleased that France voted \'non\'. Like the majority of the UK, I am against a central European government... especially given that such an institution will inevitably involve huge amounts of bureaucratic red-tape and and an increase in the corrupt and self-serving way it seems to run as the current European Parliament.

Whether the UK is regarded as the lap dog to the US or not, the fact is we are still a major force in the EU and will undoubtably remain so.

Personally, I have no desire to see our history and tradition wiped out for the good of a Europe which isn\'t actually particualrly effective in running itself.

With regards to stemming the growth of Chinese imports etc.. how as a State, Europe thinks that combining under one central government is going to solve this, I have no idea. How can you compete, contractually, with a country who\'s national minimum wage is 20p per hour.

Also, there are other ludicrous directives in place in Europe which are not working, such as the Working Time Directive - in theory, this seems civilised, but in practice, it\'s having a huge impact on the cost of manufacturing - which in turn just helps the influx of both cheap labour and cheap imports.

I sincerely hope Holland follows suit. I also hope that given a referendum, the UK will undoubtably support this too.

 

[PF]

I thought it was a bit a pity but finally I\'m glad the Europe will take more time or perhaps never exist! I don\'t want to PAY for the Windsor or the troops based in Ireland!
Well I must say I second the idea that some arguments are a danger for the democracy.The \"we can make a better constituion\" argument made me feel a bit sceptical.
I\'ll use easy examples. Imagine I post on one of your minis : \"Oh that \'s bullshit! I can do better!\" You could expect to see my minis then...That\'s now it\'s fun! I have no minis to show! Not even a green...Nothing...Now remember we aren\'t talking about minis this time...lol BTW,I can understand nationalism.The alternative exists.
Another thing I read or heard in France is that considering the people voted ,they were right...Well...OK...I suppose people had good reasons to vote for Hitler...After all Germany wasn\'t really on top...Say,\"they were a bit angry\"... I think there is a confusion.Having the right doesn\'t mean you\'re right.
Well,I think there was a lot of snipers for this referendum!lol

 

[Logan]

Eloquent and to the point

Originally posted by finn17


The thing is..at the end of the day etc...I would rather be a poor Englishman than a rich European. Anything that dilutes my sense of national Identity is anathema, and, I believe that in this country, I am in the majority.

Amen Steve, and I believe you are probably right re \'the majority\'.

 

[PF]

In fact,I \'m not sure to understand nationalism... I mean do you really think european people are so different from each other? I haven\'t travelled a lot but I tend to think that apart food and language (notice the order of words) the differences aren\'t that great.What are these traditions and culture you\'re afraid to lose guys? Is tea time in danger?

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Spacemunkie
Most people have better things to do than read masses of verbose, political garbage.....

When it can change their futur, I think it\'s worth it.

Message original : Spacemunkie
I also think it\'s a little naive to suggest that all the \'oui\' voters read the treaty, whilst the \'non\' voters are simply politically inept....

I never said that. What I said goes both ways. The treaty isn\'t perfect, but before taking such an important decision, I prefer checking it out for myself. A lot of people (and I would really like to know how many actually read it) voted based on their political color, their current situation, or what they heard in the medias.

Another thing that hasn\'t been mentioned but that I found alarming where the pre-vote stats (are they called polls?). Usually, they have to stop publishing their results 2 weeks before the vote in France. But this vote, it stopped 2 days before. I\'m sure people were influenced by that.

 

[Beelzebrush]

Heheh.... It\'s funny that when something goes \'wrong\' in Europe, the finger of blame usually points to this isle. Ironic really that this isle hasn\'t had a chance to air it\'s opinion publicly by way of a vote.

Paying for the Windsors has always been seen as quite a sensible cost given the revenue that having a monarchy seems to reap.

As Sturm pointed out the political differences between France and the UK are as old as Europe anyway.... I can\'t see that any amount of \'union\' will ever change this. I actually like the French and France (my parents currently live there) but I can\'t imagine we will ever see eye-to-eye as countries.

 

[Beelzebrush]

Originally posted by PF
What are these traditions and culture you\'re afraid to lose guys? Is tea time in danger?

Losing teatime would be a dire consequence indeed

However, France would probably have to lose the 2 hours of the day where the entire country \'closes\'. You\'d probably have to lose a few of the many public holidays you have too.... in my opinion, a much bigger cost (and if I\'m correct, one of the reasons for the non-vote?)

All intended in the age-old spirit of rivalry of course

 

[PF]

Message original : Beelzebrush
Heheh.... It\'s funny that when something goes \'wrong\' in Europe, the finger of blame usually points to this isle.

???

Message original : Beelzebrush
Paying for the Windsors has always been seen as quite a sensible cost given the revenue that having a monarchy seems to reap.

I\'m against the human exploitation for tourism! lol

Message original : Beelzebrush
As Sturm pointed out the political differences between France and the UK are as old as Europe anyway.... I can\'t see that any amount of \'union\' will ever change this.

This? It is still very blurry for me.What are these differences you\'re talking about?I\'d like to know.

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Beelzebrush
However, France would probably have to lose the 2 hours of the day where the entire country \'closes\'.

When did that happen???.

Message original : Beelzebrush
You\'d probably have to lose a few of the many public holidays you have too.... in my opinion, a much bigger cost (and if I\'m correct, one of the reasons for the non-vote?)

We already lost a day, and, if I\'m not mistaken, we have just about as many public holidays as any other European country.

Message original : Beelzebrush
All intended in the age-old spirit of rivalry of course

Rival on, Europe would be a sad place without it .

 

[Medved]

i think the problem lies in the fact that we (the british isles) have always had a big excuse not to fully integrate into european society...........the english channel. just about every \'european\' country is connected by border with another, so thus people have to lear to get along with the neighbours or build bloody big fences to keep them out. when i lived abroad (slovakia) i was surprised at my attitude towards europe compared to the \'european view\'.

@french kid: as to the whole uk joining when they wanted to........i believe when the EU/EEC was started in the 60\'s the UK tried to join many times but were vetoed out by the french many times. ???

the whole europe vs UK will go on forever because we have our barrier to hide behind ans while the other countries see this they will have that feeling floating around too.

on a slightly different point.......i have lost count just how many times people in eastern europe have though that the whole of the UK was england (some sid we dont mark the borders on our maps) and didnt know the difference between British and English ( something our friends across the pond still dont get)

 

[PF]

Message original : Beelzebrush
However, France would probably have to lose the 2 hours of the day where the entire country \'closes\'.

Sounds like a legend unless you\'re speaking of night.

Message original : Beelzebrush
You\'d probably have to lose a few of the many public holidays you have too.... in my opinion, a much bigger cost (and if I\'m correct, one of the reasons for the non-vote?)

You\'re right about the reasons of some french sure.If you\'re pointing out the fact that french aren\'t ready themselves to make sacrifices in order to build a real federation ,I totally agree.

 

[finn17]

PF

I think you\'ll fnd that a significant number of Brits don\'t want to pay for the bloody Windsors either:flame:

As for troops in Ireland, I think you are a bit behind the times, we had to send them all to Iraq. And to be honest, I don\'t want to pay for that either:flip:

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Medved
the whole europe vs UK will go on forever because we have our barrier to hide behind ans while the other countries see this they will have that feeling floating around too.

I disagree. It\'s getting easier to travel nowadays, and although I\'ve been to the UK only twice, I truely think that travels broaden ones mind and more people will learn to know your country better.