Voting issues

[nels0nmac]

There seems to be a general problem when it comes to voting on miniatures i.e. there are not enough people doing it. The ranking system is worked out on the average score of any miniature that has 50+ votes. For the lads and lasses at the top (8.5+ for their submissions) it is not a problem, they get in the new and notable feature and then usually the Top 10 Last Week page. Everyone else to wait ages to get to 50+ votes. In fact you have to go back to this time last year before you get to the majority of submissions being over 50+ votes. That'll be in the region of14,000 images which do not count toward peoples ranking. I'm certain that there are submissions even older than that, that have still to reach 50+ votes.

Now I love this site, but I worry about the relevance of the ranking system as it stands when there is much work that is not counting towards peoples personal rankings. I loved the fact that when I started I had a low ranking and I worked hard and set myself goals to steadily climb up the table. Currently that is not going to happen to the majority of people as they are not getting the votes.

Any suggestions or do we change the emphasis of CMoN?

 

[johnboyjjb]

I thought the Discuss Submissions section got us over 50 fairly quickly. Not so much anymore?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

I have one submission in the gallery. I have a fairly popular WIP on CMON with over 13,000 views, so a lot of people were exposed to the submission. Then I put it on the Discuss Subs thread. I just barely got 51 votes. And one of those is my wife, another is me. So discounting those, I would not be at 50 votes. I totally agree that 50 is too many for the average artist. I hope DR sees this thread, if not I'll bring it to his attention. He is very good at responding and explaining things.

 

[Dragonsreach]

"You Can Lead a Horse to Water.................."

I don't think that there is a perfect answer to this issue, or that of Sniping. The last time Chern Ann discussed the scoring/ranking within the forums he stated that to change the voting system would mean virtually rebuilding the whole database from scratch.
I can't give you an answer as to how to get people to vote or comment, all I can suggest is that you pimp out the submissions in the Discuss Submissions Forum and with anyone you can ask for constructive criticism.

 

[MAXXxxx]

Any suggestions

Vote more.
Seriously people don't vote anymore. Even though you are pretty good at it (16722 votes out of 207559 images), but most (including me (about 1500 vote)) are way behind.

And there are 3 other problems with it:
- cmon's engine: more than once has happened, when I tried to vote on a lot of pictures, that I got the same 10-15 over and over and over. At some point I was fed up and quit voting because of that.
- lately I don't frequent the gallery anymore. While on the forum the people are supportive and nice, on the gallery it almost feels like bullying sometimes, so I rarely upload or watch anything anymore there.
- the community is divided and more and more walk away from the site (either because KS-s or find something better for them (like Putty and Paint --> most of those who I consider super are already on that site and not here anymore --> even less people visit)). +As I said on another thread you can literally get more than 50 people on a local gaming site.

To be completely honest I feel that the painting part of the site has shrunk considerably. Not only the gallery (where a lot don't post anymore because of fear or disinterest), but even the forum feel like there are about 10 active members and that's it. For the supposedly largest site with painted minis in focus, that's a really low and bad number.

So in the end:
to get the 50 vote my only solution is that we the users should vote more + invite friends from local communities to vote (at least on our submissions) too, but I have a feeling that in a few years both the gallery and the forum will wither away leaving the shop or just the Kickstarters.

 

[nels0nmac]

@ Blood father _ 50 votes didn't use to be a problem. And it needs to be a high enough number to iron out most of the vagaries of public voting to get a fairly accurate figure. It is only in the last couple of years that it has become a problem.

@ Maxx _ personally I don't think that the painting side of things has shrunk, quite the opposite in fact. There are now over 9,000 users and in excess of 15,000 images posted in the last year. I think that CMoN is in danger of being too successful. There are too many images and not enough people voting on them. It is a hard one as any attempts to force people to vote would just result in people just running through the images with no real interest in voting accurately, or more likely they will just go elsewhere.

@DR _ if things continue in the same vein then the current system will fail to be relevant. Without the 50+ votes people won't be able to progress with the ranking and inclusion to the CMoN annual will be reserved for the upper echelon who regularly score high enough to always get the require number of votes. I can see how any over haul of the voting system would require basically starting the database again, but if things don't change, and if CMoN is going to continue with the same emphasis then it may well require that anyway.

 

[AndyG]

Going to throw my two cents in here now. Painting side is alive and kicking no doubt about that in my opinion. However the voting bit is without doubt broken. Quite simply there are thousands of pics posted and at most a few hundred semi regular voters. If you do the maths this is what you end up with not many people getting 50+ votes. The only answer is redo the site from the ground up otherwise you just won't solve the problem. However it will be a very time consuming expensive process and unless Chern can see a valid business reason to do so I very much doubt it will happen it will just carry on as it is.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

I may be wrong here due to ignorance, but would it really be that difficult to change it to 30+ votes for ranking? I can't imagine the whole database needing rebuilt from the ground up by such a change. It's just a simple math equation. Change one of the variables (to the average score of 30 votes) and you assign new solutions ( rankings) to the members. Sounds rather automatic to me. But then again, I know next to nothing about these things. Oh well...

 

[Ritual]

Ever since I started travelling to real-life competitions, meeting people, seeing great stuff (many of which are by artists who've never posted here in the first place) up close, maybe even hold it in hand and being able to really inspect it thoroughly... ever since then, voting here and the ranking and stuff has meant nothing to me. Not that I put that much value in it before, but now... it means absolutely nothing at all. Some of the best work I've seen have not looked equally impressive in photos posted online, while other stuff that has looked stellar in photos have been underwhelming in real life. Photos can do so much either way with things this small. There are so many factors that can change appearances for better or worse.

I don't post stuff here any longer, as I simply don't care for the "opinion" of the voting crowd. Also, I had a fairly long break (not planned) from painting and only been firmly back at it for a year. When I did get back into it, I realised I had no wish to post any of my work here any longer. The forum is still a nice community, but the gallery has lost its appeal. Putty and Paint is a much more positive platform for that, I think.

 

[Avelorn]

@Ritual: But P&P is a closed site, this is not. This could be a more complete record of the world of miniatures because of it. Scores is just a tiny little part of it for me now... I suggest posting stuff here just to share with everyone.

Edit: got an invite from ten ball, thanks a bunch!

 

[Ritual]

@Ritual: But P&P is a closed site, this is not. This could be a more complete record of the world of miniatures because of it.

But it's not complete. Lots of the very best painters have either left CMoN or simply never posted here. Not saying that everyone posts at Putty and Paint either, but the general attitude there is a lot more positive. Keeping it small, I think, helps with that. There's no competition, everyone simply enjoys looking at well painted or sculpted miniatures.

I don't really need a complete record, as if that would ever be possible, of miniatures to compare my work to. I don't need to compare it to anything. That is not why I paint miniatures! If and when I display my stuff to other people, I want to do it in a positive context. A nice real-life competition, a website with a positive approach to other people's work, a forum with a friendly and constructive atmosphere... otherwise, what is the point? I might post pictures here on the forum, if I feel like it. But, generally, I suck at doing WIP shots.... :beerwave: If I feel I have painted something worth showing I will post it on Putty and Paint.

Oh, and Sven... if I get an invitation to give away, it's yours! :curl-lip:

 

[Avelorn]

@Ritual: Obviously not for your sake... for everybody elses. It's not about comparing for me. I have a huge gallery of my own, though poorly updated now, with everything from from all my favourite miniature painters and sculptors. Not to compare to my work, just for my enjoyment.

I'm not claiming this site is complete. More that it at least in theory it can be so.

Got an invite just now from ten ball. But thanks.

 

[Ritual]

@Ritual: Obviously not for your sake... for everybody elses.

Well, even if it's invite-only to create an account, everyone can look at Putty and Paint!

Oh, you got invited? Great! With my painting tempo it could take a while until I get to invite someone. :beerwave:

 

[Webmonkey]

I'd actually very much like an invite if someone's got one to spare. I'm always thrilled to see new pieces. Though, I do always do at least a little comparing, but just to myself. I'm always stunned when I can't figure out how a painter got that really cool shading job,.. or osl,.. or ,... whatever.

 

[Avelorn]

Well, even if it's invite-only to create an account, everyone can look at Putty and Paint!

Oh, you got invited? Great! With my painting tempo it could take a while until I get to invite someone. :beerwave:

Yes... and everyone can visit my blog as well, but I don't think everybody does.

I want for people, everyone, to see awesome miniatures. That's why I want you to post on this site. But maybe P&P is starting to become well-known enough nowadays.

 

[Ritual]

@webmonkey You can look at everything without an invite. You just can't create an account to post your own stuff, vote or comment.

@Sven Far from everyone looks at this site. And I don't need everyone to look at my stuff. The things I chose to display is out there for people to look at. And yes, I think P&P is becoming the place to go to for inspiring stuff, if it isn't already. So, people searching for inspiring miniatures will be able to find my work there. Then, of course, whether they are inspired by it or not is an entirely different question. :dont-know:

 

[Zab]

What's your blog Avelorn? I'll add you to my Blog roll P&P is great, but my god does it take some time get get invites to give out. I've had one to give out the whole time I've belonged so far and a list of people I want to hand them out to as long as my arm!

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

I'm on P&P and if you look through the gallery EVERYTHING is top notch. I'm afraid to post anything yet, as I want it to be my best. So that's what I think it's for personally; sharing my very best work. Not sure if my latest project will go up or not. I guess I'll base it upon my feedback here.

 

[Webmonkey]

I just went and looked at the site. Lots of extremely good pieces there. I'd be ashamed to try to post my stuff along side any of it,.. I can only dream of ever being that good.

 

[yxalitis]

I actually think the issue isn't the number of voters, but the fact that 95% don't leave a comment, just blop down a '6' and that's it.
Without feedback, the number is useless..WHY did you vote a 6?
What could be done to improve, what areas need focus...?