Voting qualifications

[Flashman14]

Can we discuss this in particular? It gets mentioned as parts of other posts but I just wonder if we really have a concensus at all.

I\'ve seen out there repeated the idea that you don\'t have to be a great painter to know what great painting looks like and thus be able to judge it properly.

Let me just put it straight: True or False?

Are \"poor\" painters (define it as you will) qualified to judge the work of \"great\" ( I use this exrtraordinarily loosely) or \"better\" painters?

When this was challenged a few weeks ago that person was soundly shut down. Finn you may have been involved in that; I don\'t remember. Yet on a more recent thread it went out unchallenged. Panza?

On one hand you could argue that painting is Art and that Art by definition is accessible, and thus judgeable, to all who choose to experience it.
But also it isn\'t so much the qualitative choices we make that makes a paint job get a high score - often it is the technical skill of the artist - not necessarily the creative choices. Or rather not Exclusively the creative choices.

Is a person who knows nothing about cars qualified to judge a priori the skill of a car mechanic. Could that person give legitimate and good advice or suggestions on how to improve the car should it have problems?

Or does the difference lie in the End versus the Means - All of us are equipped to judge the final result but not all are equipped to give advice on how to get to that final result.

Have I answered my own question?

Thoughts, feelings? Can anyone straighten me out?

Personally I feel that whatever the answer is, NOTHING related to this topic should change on CMON - I live it, love it, breathe it, as it is and would make no changes at all in terms of who can vote or leave comments but I\'d like to see your opinions . . .

Thanks all in advance

 

[supervike]

Good post!

Very interesting....

I cannot act, yet I know that Stephan Segal is a not a great actor.

I cannot sing, yet I know some of those folks on \"american idol\" shouldn\'t be singing either.

I couldn\'t get up and speak and lead, and argue like politicians do, yet I can voice my opinion for or against them.

I think you get my very unsubtle point.

But, I can see the other side as well. Would getting a \"high vote\" from a luminary in your field mean more than from just a common lay person? I think they vote on the Academy Awards that way.

I don\'t think you have to be great in any thing to be able to understand, appreciate, critizise, appraise, or enjoy it.

 

[darthfoley]

You absolutely don\'t have to be good at something to criticize it. Just ask Roger Ebert (who trashes movies constantly...and the only movie he ever made was Beyond the Valley of the Dolls...I think you see my point).

Now to understand it...that I think is a different thing. I think that by the very nature of \'being good at it\', an understanding is implied. If Wayne Gretzky didn\'t understand \'puck goes in the net\', I doubt he would have been good at it.

 

[Nelson]

IMO, it also just depends whether it\'s art or not. There\'s a big chance I\'m wrong, but art is something anyone can critique. Like everyone here said, that would mean almost nobody could criticize van gogh, or any other artist, nobody could criticize beethoven, and there would be no such thing as movie critics, or book critics unless they were better authors, or directors. I think art is a thing any common joe can look at with at least a rudimentary understanding of the art form, and decide why or why not it\'s good, or why he/she likes it. I think as long as you know some of the techniques involved, you are just as qualified to judge it as a pro. It\'s easier to say something than it is to do something. Of course, that can lead to some people giving tougher judgments just because they can. In the case of the car mechanic, the person should not be critcisizing the mechanics work, or giving advice for the simple reason that they are paying money for it!!!! with art, even if you know the techniques, you may not have the skill to utilize them. With fixing a car, if you know how to take a wheel off, then you can.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Guilty me lud!

I was the one who all those weeks ago played the old \'qualified to vote\' card! That was really in a fit of pique though and not my true opinion. Christ did I get it in the neck for that one?! It\'s amazing how many people ignore your retractions as well! Bite my tongue next time I guess.

You don\'t have to be a great painter to comment on great painting. However, I think a complete novice (or someone with no skill what so ever) is ill prepared to suggest how a paint job can be improved technically. I mean I can comment on the aesthetics of a car, but I really wouldn\'t be able to say how it could improved mechanically.

 

[Infidel Castro]

maybe I can help

To improve a car mechanically one should:

Paint it red
Tint the windows
Add spoilers
Makes holes in exhaust pipe
Lower suspension
Play music loudly

There we are! Easy!

I veer towards the competent and experts thingy for comments/suggestions/critiques, but I feel that voting is subjective. The value in a critique from a great painter would certainly be higher than that of a standard painter in many cases, as it is probably fair to say that a great painter has far more understanding of what you\'re attempting. However, the standard painter may also be on that same path as you and be able to see where you\'re heading in relation to his/her current skills. In this respect the standard painter ALSO has a good footing. And not to forget the people who just comment to leave a \'great mini! love the red!\' note. These people are expressing their enjoyment. But then I\'m a little off topic as the question related to voting - in which case the subjective nature of voting wins. It\'s what a mini says to the individual that scores it in their minds.

I\'ll put it simpler...EVERYONE is qualified, just some more than others. Which is a rip-off of another famous quotation I know, but what can you do? ???

rev

 

[wightzombie]

theres outside taste, theres inner taste and know how taste.

to tell you the truth a outsider coming in who doesnt play/collect/love/know about minis shouldnt be voting. and by play, i kinda mean someone who generally knows whats out there. someone who plays nothing but GW or 40k, some of the other companies must look downright alien to them.

someone who knows whats out there etc, plays or paints, collects etc, yeah they can judge.

then theres the know how aka someone who does paint (real good). i think they are less qualified in someways because when another artist looks at anothers work the mental feedback is different from a non artist. they compare techniques, what they would do differently, even just a natural higher respect for another therefore they may study certain peices more than others.

\"\"\"Is a person who knows nothing about cars qualified to judge a priori the skill of a car mechanic. Could that person give legitimate and good advice or suggestions on how to improve the car should it have problems?\"\"\"

thats a different question. more akin to your thoughts would simply be the asthetics of said car, not underlying mechanics. that would be to mechanics as what kind of pewter or metal, process, sculpt detail etc is to a mini, not the paint job.

\"\"\"Or does the difference lie in the End versus the Means - All of us are equipped to judge the final result but not all are equipped to give advice on how to get to that final result.\"\"\"

niether.
not all of us are equipped to judge because to judge something you have to know something about it. not knowing anything about something you are judging results in poor judgement. its like reviewing a movie after watching it once and trying to remeber all the details and nuances of the film. i think someone who is not familiar with the field will judge on 1st impressions and how many of us here really hem and haw to make a voting desicion? now picture someone not familiar with minis at all blasting through voting on bare/slight immpresions. scary.

\"\"\"not all are equipped to give advice on how to get to that final result.\"\"\"

maybe thats a good thing. i guess GW\'s GD standards are a example. if you have a pre concieved notion of what is acceptable it may hamper creativity or at least the popular growth of it. are any painting styles looked down upon? are any held up high? it may be better not to have 10 year judging veterans staring at minis scrutinizing every little detail that they scrape off what is truly enjoyable and nearly everything is \"seen it, yawn\".

so i think a medium road ala knows whats great because theyve been around but not a study so as not too have killed the subject in thier head by doing it or having to anylize it is a decent road to travel. i think it brings in more of a real perspective rather than one \"only professionals get\".

 

[mouse]

Partners in gulit...

Originally posted by Sturmhalo
I was the one who all those weeks ago played the old \'qualified to vote\' card! That was really in a fit of pique though and not my true opinion. Christ did I get it in the neck for that one?! It\'s amazing how many people ignore your retractions as well! Bite my tongue next time I guess.

You don\'t have to be a great painter to comment on great painting. However, I think a complete novice (or someone with no skill what so ever) is ill prepared to suggest how a paint job can be improved technically. I mean I can comment on the aesthetics of a car, but I really wouldn\'t be able to say how it could improved mechanically.

hallo, Sturmhalo...it seem that our episode a few months back still stirred memories, huh?

Well, like what Sturmhalo\'s parting words to me...\"...\"...uh...i can\'t remember BUT it was friendly words, i think. lol

Anyways, me stand still hold firm. A novice or truly uninitiated can definitely comment on the works of an expert. But there\'s a distinction to draw that very line.

If like what Flashman14 said, how can i improve the performance of a car, well, i seriously don\'t know. And if i were to comment on how it can be done, then me think i should join the circus enrolled as a clown. Why?

Duh! That\'s because i don\'t know the nuts and bolts of how a car works! It\'s something objective. It\'s physics and it\'s something that\'s cast in stones.

How can I improve on a symphony piece? Well, i seriously don\'t know the answer to that too!

\"...but you said that if it\'s not objective...\"

Yes, but i don\'t know the right side to read all those wiggling and creeping notes. If so, how can i improve it?

Having said all these, does that mean that i cannot comment/criticise/judge on these thingies?

No...I definitely can.

I can say that car sucks in performance. It can\'t even outrun a bloody bicycle (Note: The bicycle ain\'t covered with blood. Just a figment of the author\'s vivid imagination) but i wouldn\'t know how to improve it.

I can say that symphony piece is worst than my mum\'s ULTIMATE NAGGING but i wouldn\'t know a D minor if it bit my on my pristine arse.

So, my stand still hold firm. I can definitely vote/comment/judge/criticise but i definitely cannot paint like Van Gogh.

 

[Sturmhalo]

Yes, we parted on good terms Mouse. Though I probably made rude hand gestures when you turned your back.

lol

Someone said something along the lines of having to know a little about what you\'re actually looking at before you can really make a true valid comment (hope I\'m not putting words into someones mouth!). I guess that\'s right though when I think about it. Someone who has never seen a mini before doesn\'t know what they\'re looking at. Their eye isn\'t necessarily trained to observe such a tiny piece of whatever. Just try showing your work to your aging mother or some other relative. They\'ll just say \'ooh that\'s nice dear\' without really taking on board what it is they\'re looking at. However, most people on this site do know something about minis etc (unless they\'re lost!) and therefore can comment to some degree. Though I still reckon that someone who has never painted for example would be ill advised to start commenting on how the big names here could improve their work!

 

[Sturmhalo]

By the way Mouse, glad you didn\'t run away! Get some painted stuff up here as well!

 

[Infidel Castro]

I\'ve an idea!

Mouse says:

\"How can I improve on a symphony piece? Well, i seriously don\'t know the answer to that too!\"

Well, have you tried introducing a banjo?

 

[calabdark]

i think i can suggest to someone what might improve the look of mini, however if they are clearly a better painter than me t(as a lot are) i wouldnt presume to tell them how to do it,unless asked, as i would assume they have a much better idea than myself how to achieve said result but i feel im qualified to cast a vote as i do have a familiarity with the wonderful world of mini painting and have studied many pics of the great and not so great as part of my journey towards near satisfaction with my own ------------------painting which i hope one day to reach.

 

[laurence]

Critique

There\'s an artist who posts @ CMON, and his minis are great. When I look at his posts I see flaws such as stark contrast between highlights and shades, yet I will never comment on these.

The reason for this is that I feel that I would be way out of my depth to suggest to this guy his blending is a tad rough at times. After all he was painting minis when my mummy was changing my nappies. And has won many prestigious mini painting awards.

Who am I to constructively critisise this guys work? I would feel pretentious etc...

Now on the other hand if it was someone like Mike Mc Vey left suggestions I\'m sure these suggestions would be more valid and justified because he can back up the talk with the walk.

So I guess I\'m saying (what the hell am I trying to say) that you need some experience and deeper understanding to make sound judgements.

My bent nickel...

 

[finn17]

A couple of issues...

This is an interesting debate but there are a couple of points I would like to throw in:
1) You need to distinguish between voting qualifications and commenting qualifications. They seem to be getting confused and I do feel there is a subtle but important difference.
2) the great thing about CMON is the broad sweep of people who participate. For every \'anorak\' like myself and laurence who might recognise a big name painter, there will be dozens who just go, \"Oooh, that\'s nice\" or not, as the case may be.
3) It\'s a two way street. If I was Arjay and some twerp calling himself finn17 says his SENMM stinks he is just going to have a good laugh and quite rightly so. He might take more notice if fredy or goatman take him to task however:bouncy:
4) I try not to pass comment on things I know very little about for fear of looking stupid. I am still entitled to have a vote however.

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

Well I reckon just about anyone* is qualified to vote, you don\'t need to have ever painted anything more than a garden fence (or nothing at all) to recognise that a mini is painted well.

Its extremely common in the world for people to praise / criticise things they wouldn\'t have a hope in hell of doing themselves. Take the example of a computer game. Would you think I was a bit silly if I suggested you are not able to make a valid comment on how good a computer game you have played is, just because you would have no hope of ever making a computer game yourself? I can\'t make computer game (no idea where to even start) but I know what\'s a good game and what isn\'t so good. A bit of subjective judgement and personal taste comes in there, like with everything you judge but this should happen. If you can make something that a lot of people (all of who have differing tastes and preferences) appreciate and like then you have done extremely well.

Praise and / or criticism from \"Joe / Sue Public\"** is as least as good as if not much better (imo) than praise from experts in that field. An expert is perhaps far better at spotting, judging and criticising technical aspects, but you need to ask how important is an expert in the scheme of things? If only computer programers / 3D engine / texture artists / animators etc bought computer games, we wouldn\'t have computer games because there wouldn\'t be enough people buying computer games to make them financially viable. Without \"Joe/ Sue Public\" / \"Joe / Sue Average Painter\" to comment and vote would it really matter how good you could paint? Wouldn\'t it be boring to be an expert painter and have only expert painters judge your work? Would it mean anything if a handfull of experts judged your work, or would it be more meaningfull if a large majority of the painting public judged you (if you sell on Ebay these are the people who are going to be your main buyers after all)?

If you are talking about technical critique (eg you need to thin your paints more to achieve better blending, or SENMM would look better doing...) then obviously only experts can help here....

*One small point here though if you have never seen a mini before your voting is likely to be skewed for the first 50 or so votes. All voting has a \"comparative element to it\" and people judge things against other like things. If you have never seen mini\'s before your vote only begins to have value after you have seen a good selection of what you are about to judge.

**Sorry to everyone called either Joe or Sue. In no way am I suggesting your name is common hehe (In fact I think Sue is quite a cool name)....

 

[finn17]

That\'s the best analogy I have heard...

Originally posted by Mr.S.Marbo
Take the example of a computer game. Would you think I was a bit silly if I suggested you are not able to make a valid comment on how good a computer game you have played is, just because you would have no hope of ever making a computer game yourself? I can\'t make computer game (no idea where to even start) but I know what\'s a good game and what isn\'t so good.

Apologies in advance for next time I use itlol:bouncy:lol

 

[mouse]

er...

Originally posted by reverend
Mouse says:

\"How can I improve on a symphony piece? Well, i seriously don\'t know the answer to that too!\"

Well, have you tried introducing a banjo?

Rev, is that a dog? lol

 

[mouse]

Good Point...

Originally posted by Mr.S.Marbo
Well I reckon just about anyone* is qualified to vote, you don\'t need to have ever painted anything more than a garden fence (or nothing at all) to recognise that a mini is painted well.

Its extremely common in the world for people to praise / criticise things they wouldn\'t have a hope in hell of doing themselves. Take the example of a computer game. Would you think I was a bit silly if I suggested you are not able to make a valid comment on how good a computer game you have played is, just because you would have no hope of ever making a computer game yourself? I can\'t make computer game (no idea where to even start) but I know what\'s a good game and what isn\'t so good. A bit of subjective judgement and personal taste comes in there, like with everything you judge but this should happen. If you can make something that a lot of people (all of who have differing tastes and preferences) appreciate and like then you have done extremely well.

Praise and / or criticism from \"Joe / Sue Public\"** is as least as good as if not much better (imo) than praise from experts in that field. An expert is perhaps far better at spotting, judging and criticising technical aspects, but you need to ask how important is an expert in the scheme of things? If only computer programers / 3D engine / texture artists / animators etc bought computer games, we wouldn\'t have computer games because there wouldn\'t be enough people buying computer games to make them financially viable. Without \"Joe/ Sue Public\" / \"Joe / Sue Average Painter\" to comment and vote would it really matter how good you could paint? Wouldn\'t it be boring to be an expert painter and have only expert painters judge your work? Would it mean anything if a handfull of experts judged your work, or would it be more meaningfull if a large majority of the painting public judged you (if you sell on Ebay these are the people who are going to be your main buyers after all)?

If you are talking about technical critique (eg you need to thin your paints more to achieve better blending, or SENMM would look better doing...) then obviously only experts can help here....

*One small point here though if you have never seen a mini before your voting is likely to be skewed for the first 50 or so votes. All voting has a \"comparative element to it\" and people judge things against other like things. If you have never seen mini\'s before your vote only begins to have value after you have seen a good selection of what you are about to judge.

**Sorry to everyone called either Joe or Sue. In no way am I suggesting your name is common hehe (In fact I think Sue is quite a cool name)....

Mr.S.Marbo, well done. You took the words out of my mouth.

IMHO, whenever i make a decision, such as which brand of cigarette to buy (hmm...is this somehow linked to Mr.S.Marbo?? ), i am making a judgment call. Whenever i look at something, be it nice or not, i have had made a personal comment/opinion on it.

We live in a world whereby we assess things, events and people that we come in contact with. A person that I had just met maybe just a mere acquaitance but looking at it from another angle, he could have hit off well with me right from the start. Hence, he doesn\'t achieve the status of someone who can immediately be a good friend. What\'s the point here? No one can ever be truly neutral to something. No one can leave an encounter (be it person or thing) without passing his opinionated judgment on it.

In a forum or a voting site such as CMoN, we also make such calls. However, in this case, we were given the rights to voice it out loud.

Hence, it\'s not a question of whether we can or cannot comment/vote/judge/criticise on something based on our qualifications, it\'s whether we can voice it out and whether it matters.

Here, CA gave us that opportunity. You don\'t have to pass some test before voting and commenting. Hence, voicing it out is definitely proper here.

Whether it matters or not, frankly speaking, that\'s up to the artist. CA recently mentioned the case of \"thick-skinned\" and \"thin-skinned\". If you post here, you know that you\'ll get comments and votes from all quarters. Maybe it\'s not what you expect, well, find out why but whether you accept it or not, that\'s your choice.

So, somehow i felt that it\'s not a matter of whether you can or cannot comment/vote. It\'s a case of whether it matters or not. And that\'s up to the artist and not its audience.

Basically, just looking at it from another perspective.

PS: Doesn\'t Mr.S.Boro avatar looks a lot like BME??

 

[Panza]

Everyone should be free to have and share their opinion, but of course everyone should also be free to ignore the opinions or others. The problems come when opinion is held up as fact. This is arrogance, and arrogant people should be poked in the eye with a bendy brush. The previous statement was just my opinion.

 

[Dragonsreach]

To Vote Or To Comment? That is Really the Question.

Ok here\'s my opinion on a long ranging question.(OK so nobody asked for it but you\'re gonna getit anyhow!)

I feel entitled to vote because this site and the persons who post mini\'s INVITE me to do so. I also feel entitled to vote because I see this site as:
A) a market place of skills in a specific artistry.
B) a place where all people can ask for and recieve praise/ kudos for their minis.
C) I post figures up on this site.

Now lets be honest here, there are people who put up mini\'s in the hope that other people will say \"That rocks\" , \"It\'s the best thing since Bread was sliced\" etc... (I know, I hope to get those type of comments someday :~() But there are also those people who are activley looking for advise on how to improve their painting or modelling skills.

So I also feel entitled to Comment on a mini, See the thread on \"A Comment a Day campaign\". Now this campaign got me thinking about how I respond to mini\'s I see. Apart from praise of high quailty mini\'s, I hadn\'t been contributing very much to the improvement of other painters.
Now, I look at the mini\'s being posted and I try to see what areas, if any, I think the artist needs to work on to improve. If other contributors have commented and they match my thoughts then I don\'t always comment. But if there isn\'t a comment and I feel that I can offer a helpful suggestion I will comment. (Quite often send a PM as well.) Why? Because I have benefited from comments posted on my mini\'s. So I want to pass on the kindness that others have shown. That\'s why I feel entitled to Comment.

Have I made sense on this?