What is the difference between conversions and fresh creations?

Aoroi

New member
I do not know the best way to ask this, aside from just trying. Browsing the rules for Golden Demon and other local area contests, they usually state: Have to be 75% or such the related product. How does that apply? I know many here have entered the GD's and such. Where is the line between say building up a model with GS so much perhaps almost no original metal or plastic visible, or say sculpting a model based on the product, but it the correct pose/armor you need. I have seen so many great and mind blowing 'conversions' and cannot say that all those products belong to the company or not. Is it alright to create and sculpt based on the miniature (if you have the talent) as long as it looks like the original model?

EG: I have seen a demon who's body was built up from the rat ogre chest. During a WIP shot, you could see very little of the original chest piece. Fake fur, GS, armor scraps covered so much of it that only a small stomach section remained. The rest, head and wings were from toys, the feet were I want to say undead dragon feet, and GS for the rest.

So why not craft the whole stomach from a block of GS, or other putty and have something in the middle of it to support the weight and add structure. I wish I could find the WIP shot or the final, but it was so long ago. I remember looking at it, and thinking it almost nothing on there bought from the store or bits.

Where, or is there, a line that determines what you can submit or do you just take the whole project and think, yea this passes for a (example) GW product. Alot of the models I see winning or doing real well have great bases. Extended or enlarged to include a huge scene, which takes as much into account judging the model than a simple base. Does the base really make that much of a difference to the model itself?
 

nels0nmac

Member
With regard to the percentage rule I don't think it matters as long as the entry is either made from GW bits, totally scratch built or a combination of the two. There have been UK demon winners in the past that have won with a standard unconverted mini - Tyrannid Carnifex a few years back http://www.coolminiornot.com/172536?browseid=1140897- and ones that have been totally scratch built - most of Vincentis stuff as well as Giganticdarks large scale entry in 2009 -http://www.coolminiornot.com/234970?browseid=1140897. A lot of entries are standard figues that have been converted to some degree or another. As long as it looks like a GW product and fits the look of a figure from one of their armies then it's fair game....just don't use pieces from other manufacturers... that's a big no no ( if you get caught that is.)

As to the base question - yes the base can, and usually does make a big difference to the model. The base sets the scene and places the mini in a particular landscape. In can certainly add to the narative of a piece and make it more exciting/ interesting to look at. The practice of enlarging the base by building it out has certainly gained use over the years but it may be wise not to go too extreme as there may come a point where the judges will look at it and decide that it is just taking the pi** and DQ the model.
 

Aoroi

New member
Thank you for the information. From a completed view of say a space marine. If it was completely scratch built, sculpted, and kept with the designs, then is it still a GW product? I do not mean just from a Judges perspective, but also from an artists view. Is it still there product, or did you just make something that will never be.
 

nels0nmac

Member
That all depends on how close it is to their design. There are a number of manufacturers - Scibor being just one that create 28mm minis that are based on GW design but are just the right side of different to avoid IP problems ( Intellectual Property). If you were to sculpt, say, an Ultramarine Veteran, you use the same armour design and all that but it is your choice of pose and extra details. Entering that in a GD, or any other competition is no problem (again in the UK GD a while back a totally scratch built Black Orc picked up the slayer sword). The best way to think about it is to consider scratch building in the same way as converting. You are still trying to create a unique GW character... it's just that totally scratch building needs a bit more skill and is more time consuming.

As to ownership of the figure..... the IP would remain with GW.. so if you attempted to make money from that figure - ie molding it and casting copies to sell then GW would jump up and down on your back. To answer your question - yes you just made something that will never be, in the same way that conversions tend to be one off versions of a particular figure.

If you were lucky enough GW may chose to copy your design, but I am not sure if they would have to pay you to do so ( I am def no expert in IP law so if I am wrong feel happy to correct me). That said if you were that good a sculpter they would probably offer you a job.
 

Mourner

New member
So why not craft the whole stomach from a block of GS, or other putty and have something in the middle of it to support the weight and add structure. I wish I could find the WIP shot or the final, but it was so long ago. I remember looking at it, and thinking it almost nothing on there bought from the store or bits.

One reason to use an existing model as a base for a scratch-sculpted mini is scale and speed.
Sure, you can make a wireframe and fill that in, but why bother if someone else did it for you?
Leaving you free to start on the cool details.
Also saves you sculpting a stomach :D

Where, or is there, a line that determines what you can submit or do you just take the whole project and think, yea this passes for a (example) GW product.

This is my interpretation of the rules;
Any bits, from any source are acceptable, as long as they work, and aren't recognizable as bits from another company.
GW has exclusive IP rights on all there designs. For commercial reproductions, I'd steer well clear of these.

Alot of the models I see winning or doing real well have great bases. Extended or enlarged to include a huge scene, which takes as much into account judging the model than a simple base. Does the base really make that much of a difference to the model itself?

The base puts the model in perspective.
It is'nt just a daemon prince.
It's the lord of the battlefield, no other model is as badass as him.
How else did he get where he's standing right now?

Plus, it's another opportunity to show of your amazing talents.
So why not go as big and as awesome as you can?
Make sure people notice you're mini and look a bit better at all the work you put in.

On bits-percentage, I seem to have read somewhere a long time ago (don't know where), that 10-25% (fuzzy, 10 somehow sounds too good to be true) non-GW bits are okay in say, GD comps...
Long time ago, all a bit fuzzy. Things may have changed.

-Mourner
 
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