What the heck is going on with US Politics?

[vincegamer]

A quote that bugged me was from the first lady a while back:
\"the Founders wanted Freedom of Religion, not Freedom From Religion.\"

No, I\'m pretty sure they were trying to get free from the mandated state religion of England.
Anyway, Freedom of Religion is guaranteed in the \"free exercise clause\" and Freedom from Religion is guaranteed in the \"establishment clause\" of the First Amendment.

SNP, the quotes are interesting, but whenever people point out the founders were Deists, they only use the well-known examples. That\'s only about 10-20% of the people taking part in the debates. If you could give me a list of the religious statements of each signer of the Constitution that would be impressive.

 

[ZaPhOd]

Originally posted by Onis Lair
She may be right about this one. After all Dubbya did come out and say in an interview that god talks to him.... lol

HAHAHA! I wrote this bit last October...

God talks to Bush... and tells him things

 

[finn17]

Damn right!

Originally posted by Dragonsreach
At least Americans have to take the credit/blame for voting in the members of your second house, ours is given to us by Birth, Appointment, or Purchase. But that\'s another can of worms!.)

I\'m old and reasonably well educated, but I am still trying to come to terms with the fact that I am a \'subject\' and not a \'citizen\'. A fact, I might add, that I only discovered fairly recently on these very forums....

Yeah..right!!

\'Subject this..(Censored)!

That\'s better...:flip:

 

[tzor]

We could talk about what the founding fathers wanted but who cares?

The founding fathers hated the King of England. The King of England was not only head of the state but head of the church.

The constitution was written in an era after the failed articles of confederation but in an era where the 13 states still had significant political clout. Therefore the clause in the constitution was more a clause limiting federal powers. Several states did in fact have state religions at the time of the signing of the Constitution.

Thomas Jefferson was in one sense giving George Washington the flying finger. George Washington had approved a natonal holiday during his asministration. In trying to suggest that national holidays were things done by heads of religion and not heads of state (except of course in vile England where the king was both) he was effectively snubbing the General without everyone going ballastic on him.

All of this has been traditionally ignored for centuries and will continue to be ignored by all sides. Yes the words \"In God we trust\" is on the dollar bill. So are several Masonic symbols as well. So are the words (in Latin) New Secular Order. The arrows on the Bald eagle actually comes from the Five Nations of the Iriquois.

All of this makes the statements of certain people so moronic as to be entertaining. I\'m so glad I no longer live in Florida. Otherwise I\'d be angry.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by tzor
Therefore the clause in the constitution was more a clause limiting federal powers.

That\'s pretty much all the Constitution was - setting the limits of federal power. Until the 14th amendment was passed, it had no governance over state action besides controlling trade between the states and not allowing individual state armies.
And on a side note, the Thirteenth Amendment is the only part of the Constitution that regulates behavior of individual citizens.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by tzor

All of this has been traditionally ignored for centuries and will continue to be ignored by all sides. Yes the words \"In God we trust\" is on the dollar bill. So are several Masonic symbols as well.

Of the original members of the Franklin committee who designed the great seal only one, Franklin, was a Mason. There was long consideration about having an image of the \"children of Israel in the wilderness\" as part of the seal.
So are the words (in Latin) New Secular Order.]

\"...the inscription NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM translates as \"A new order of the ages,\" and signifies a new American era.\" taken directly from the Treasury Dept. website.

The arrows on the Bald eagle actually comes from the Five Nations of the Iriquois.
Dude take one out of your wallet and count. There are 13 arrows; 13 colonies. Research is easy.

All of this makes the statements of certain people so moronic as to be entertaining.
Indeed. [/quote


Here\'s some \"Secular Founding Father\'s Fun\" from the Treasury Dept.:
\"The inscription ANNUIT COEPTIS translates as \"He (God) has favored our undertakings,\" and refers to the many instances of Divine Providence during our Government\'s formation.\" Atheists! The lot of \'em.

 

[vincegamer]

No one said they were atheists, just that they weren\'t Christian.

Of course no one has mentioned what church they went to, and I believe they did all go to church. Of course it would be social and political suicide not to.

Franklin once said he believed people needed direction and church gave them that, so while he thought a few enlightened people didn\'t need it, it was generally a good thing for the nation.

 

[philologus]

I\'m with you Vince. Just a bit of additional sarcasm on my part.

 

[tzor]

\"On July 4, 1776, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson were given the task of creating a seal for the United States of America. The delegates of the Constitutional Convention believed an emblem and national coat of arms would be evidence of an independent nation and a free people with high aspirations and grand hopes for the future.\"

Of course the actual process did involve a committee and a whole lot of work. Ben Franklin was a mason but probably had little influence on the complete design. (Of course there is a vast difference between something having someone\'s symbols and being designed by someone.)


As for the eagle. See this link for Iroquois history.

Most Americans have very little knowledge of the Iroquois and their significance to the history of this Nation. It is an interesting history, beginning with the initial encounters with the early fur traders through to the establishment of the idea for united colonies. Although many of the Iroquois established a lasting relationship with the British early on, relationships were further forged with the rebel colonists who would revolt against the crown. In seeking a way to establish a representative democratic government, which would be free of the King\'s dictatorship, founding \"fathers\" such as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson observed the efficient and powerful Iroquois government system and its constitution. It is documented historical fact that these men used the Iroquois government system as a model for their uniting the colonies, developing the Articles of Confederation which gave birth to the idea, and that they also adopted much of the Iroquois Constitution when developing the original U.S. Constitution. The roles of women in the Iroquois government were much too strong, however, so that part of the structure was omitted. But even the symbols of democracy saw their origins in the Iroquois model, with the great Eagle standing as powerful symbol and protector, and the tied arrows, (often seen clutched in the talons of the eagle.) representing the united strength of the Nations.

I guarentee that had Franklyn had more influence over the seal he would have probably spent more effort getting the eagle out and the wild turkey in.

 

[vincegamer]

The sad truth of the matter is: Franklin, though a brilliant man and a delegate, was usually to ill to attend any meetings of the constitutional convention and probably had little influence on the result except in so far as the Pennsylvania model influenced the outcome (he was 81 and among other things had bladder stones).

However, he was the only person to sign the Declaration of Independence, the alliance treaties with France, the Treaty of Paris, and the Constitution.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by vincegamer
The sad truth of the matter is: Franklin, though a brilliant man and a delegate, was usually to ill to attend any meetings of the constitutional convention and probably had little influence on the result except in so far as the Pennsylvania model influenced the outcome (he was 81 and among other things had bladder stones).

However, he was the only person to sign the Declaration of Independence, the alliance treaties with France, the Treaty of Paris, and the Constitution.

The Franklin committee to create the great seal came later. Franklin himself referred to the Iroquois as \"ignorant savages\".