Whatever happened to Axebone?
- Thread starter DennisMech
- Start date
What you will generally find is that the most zealous are usually the least educated. No biblical scholar will pretend that the bible does not contain human cultural bias inconsitent with it\'s concepts of God, or borrowed theological concepts from zoroastrianism, neoplatanism, etc. They acknowledge the contradictions, ambiguities, etc and most realize there are some things that we will never difinitively know.
Unfortunately most people aren\'t willing to take the time to study. They\'re content with whatever propaganda is spewed from the pulpit.
The problem with organized religion is that it is run by people, and people suck. Easily corruptible whenever money and power come into play. But to outright dismiss any sort of religion based on this is like dismissing excercise because there are fat people at the gym.
For me the only way to truly evaluate a religion is to try to find out why it was started in the first place and what was originally there. What religions end up like centuries or millenia after the fact is much less important.
I\'m sorry...
...but I don\'t think that is very nice. The mood had been pretty sweet, but you had to go and slam.
It is true that there are pleanty of churches with large budgets and large coffers. And the ministers at such churches are paid well, but why does that mean that a bum is a better source for wisdom?
The reason these churches don\'t get together is 3 fold. 1. There are subtle differences in beliefs. They may not be theological or escatological differences. They may be differences in belief of how the church should be run, or what ritual should go where. It could boil down to how charismatic the church is. 2. Many people like small churches. Plus studies have been done about group sizes. A group of 20 is too small for growth. It is seen as click-ish by outsiders. A group of 50 to 200 is ideal, depending on the purpose of the group, because the group can be dynamic and each member can still be recognizable. Any larger than that, on average, and people feel swallowed up. They feel like they can\'t possibly get to know anyone. My mother goes to a church that has 4000 members. There are 2 ministers and about 8 to 15 assistants. Within the church there are really about 5 different churches that just happen to share the same building, the same minister and the same name. Most people in the church don\'t know 20% of the people they worship with. It is not a \"community.\" And 3. People are imperfect. Sometimes they don\'t get along with people for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, and so they form a new church.
But to suggest that these churches are all about money borders on offensive. I bet the average member of any of those churches has given more of their time/money to charitable causes than the average non church goer.
barkel
ps. I know it\'s cute and hip to think of bums as being enlightened ascetics. You see them on TV all the time. It works on TV because it\'s ironic. In my experience the opposite is usually the truth. You can take their advice over the \"guy/girl with the nice suit driving the nice car,\" but why would you? Just because someone has had financial success doesn\'t mean they are evil or focused on money. And just because someone has had hardship doesn\'t mean they learned from it.
...but I don\'t think that is very nice. The mood had been pretty sweet, but you had to go and slam.
It is true that there are pleanty of churches with large budgets and large coffers. And the ministers at such churches are paid well, but why does that mean that a bum is a better source for wisdom?
The reason these churches don\'t get together is 3 fold. 1. There are subtle differences in beliefs. They may not be theological or escatological differences. They may be differences in belief of how the church should be run, or what ritual should go where. It could boil down to how charismatic the church is. 2. Many people like small churches. Plus studies have been done about group sizes. A group of 20 is too small for growth. It is seen as click-ish by outsiders. A group of 50 to 200 is ideal, depending on the purpose of the group, because the group can be dynamic and each member can still be recognizable. Any larger than that, on average, and people feel swallowed up. They feel like they can\'t possibly get to know anyone. My mother goes to a church that has 4000 members. There are 2 ministers and about 8 to 15 assistants. Within the church there are really about 5 different churches that just happen to share the same building, the same minister and the same name. Most people in the church don\'t know 20% of the people they worship with. It is not a \"community.\" And 3. People are imperfect. Sometimes they don\'t get along with people for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, and so they form a new church.
But to suggest that these churches are all about money borders on offensive. I bet the average member of any of those churches has given more of their time/money to charitable causes than the average non church goer.
barkel
ps. I know it\'s cute and hip to think of bums as being enlightened ascetics. You see them on TV all the time. It works on TV because it\'s ironic. In my experience the opposite is usually the truth. You can take their advice over the \"guy/girl with the nice suit driving the nice car,\" but why would you? Just because someone has had financial success doesn\'t mean they are evil or focused on money. And just because someone has had hardship doesn\'t mean they learned from it.
darthfoley
Active member
That Brick Testament site reminded me of the good ol\' Chic Tracts...which reminded me of these questions that I have seen posted various places on the Internet:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can\'t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don\'t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn\'t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can\'t I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don\'t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn\'t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Wow, chris...uhhh....crikey. I\'m always over my head in conversations like this, as I\'ve never been to church, ever, and I\'m not really into Christianity. I just wanna know how we figure out what the right religion is? How do we know that Jews didn\'t have it right all along, or that those fun loving Buddhist folks are on the true path? When I said we should worship the Greek gods, I was serious. Why is Jesus any more believable than Zeus? I mean, other than the fact that a book tells us it is so. Man, if being a good person, helping your fellow man, etc. doesn\'t get you something in the afterlife without learning \"The Way\", then why the hell should anybody try? I\'m at peace with myself right now without having something to strive for. I paint, bike, go to school, hang out with my friends, and go on the occasional binge. I\'m alive right now, and when I die, I die, simple as that, no fuss. What, me worry?
I\'m always over my head in conversations like this, as I\'ve never been to church, ever, and I\'m not really into Christianity. I just wanna know how we figure out what the right religion is? How do we know that Jews didn\'t have it right all along, or that those fun loving Buddhist folks are on the true path? When I said we should worship the Greek gods, I was serious. Why is Jesus any more believable than Zeus? I mean, other than the fact that a book tells us it is so. Man, if being a good person, helping your fellow man, etc. doesn\'t get you something in the afterlife without learning \"The Way\", then why the hell should anybody try? I\'m at peace with myself right now without having something to strive for. I paint, bike, go to school, hang out with my friends, and go on the occasional binge. I\'m alive right now, and when I die, I die, simple as that, no fuss. What, me worry? johnboyjjb
Active member
Politics and religion should only be argued one on one, face to face, and handcuffed to chairs across the room from each other. \"The single greatest cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians proclaim Jesus Christ and deny him by their lifestyle.\" This also reminds me of the smoking threads. We can argue all we want but changing someones mind from across the seas is not going to be as easy as pissing them off.
I think we have done really well so far... noone has got upsaet and everyone has valued eachothers opinions even though they may be different to ones own. *chuckle* People got more upset about banning smoking!
I think it is because people havent tried to change anyones mind in this, but thoughtfully, and many times eloquently, gave our own opinion without insisting everyone must believe in it.
-Peter
Grizzix
Member
my post was not meant to offend and if it did i am sorry. it was meant to make people think. i didnt use \"bum\" out of some respect for their specific wisdom replace that with \"guy flipping burgers at McDonalds\" or even\" lawyer\". what i meant was why is any one mortal person more qualified to tell me how i should live my life than any other. i have friends that are very religious and out of them i have seen a few question the truth about religion not out of belief/disbelief of god, jesus, etc. . . but because they saw the corruption man can bring to it. one buddy of mine in particular is about as religious as you can get but will never step foot in a church again for these reasons. if the bible did at any time hold \"the one truth\" does it still? how many times has it been translated by man to suit his own needs? just things to think on.
Smoth
New member
griz, the thing is I ask them this all the time. They tell me the bible is divinely inspired and thus it is more like Gods hand through man.
Personal I agrea with you too many hands have put their own twist in the bible. I don\'t know about you guys but I have thought about the people who print bibles. They must be making a fortune.
Personal I agrea with you too many hands have put their own twist in the bible. I don\'t know about you guys but I have thought about the people who print bibles. They must be making a fortune.
airhead
Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
When compaired against old (I\'m talking 1st century) bibles, todays translations are almost exact. There were various checks and backchecks made during the middle ages when bibles were hand copied to insure exactness of copies.
Now, if you are talking about ministers or leaders interpreting the bible to their own ends... Yes, that happens all to often - all through history. The only defence is to know the word yourself and compair what is being said to what you know. This - unfortunately - is how people like Jim Jones and David Koresh gain followers - by manipulating small snippets of the Bible for their own personal gain.
Grizzix
Member
that is my problem. even the people who are not corrupted have differing views on the same book. all are \"devinely\" led on the \"true\" path. which path is correct? if i follow this man because i agree with his interpretation and truely feel in my heart and soul that he is right i could still be damned because he is wrong. is there no justice in religion? people are going to follow the interpretation that best suits them and that just seems wrong in itself. . .
Good question. I would say that you should respect the minister\'s opinion about the Bible and not necessarily about anything else. I would not go to a minister and ask how to raise my tomatos, unless he happened to grow the best in the county. You rely on ministers for spiritual guidance because you trust that they spend hours a day elbow deep in the Bible and in related texts. You trust that they know what they are talking about.
And I would assert that you shouldn\'t take their word unquestioningly. Every Christian should read the Bible regularly and therefore, at the very least, have a general understanding of what\'s going on. That way, when their minister starts to go off the deep end, which happens, they will see it and hold him accountable.
In protestant Christianity no minister is \"better\" than any individual in his congregation.
Another good question. In the medieval period the Bible was in Latin, which was translated from ancient greek, which was probably the language in which most of the Pauline letters were written. However, the scholars of the medieval period understood the dangers of translation. That is why it was strictly forbidden to translate it from Latin. It wasn\'t, originally, to stump the masses and hold them subjugation. It was to protect the word. Now, as has been stated, the translations are probably as close to exact as you can ever get.
Ancient Greek, as a language died shortly after the books of the Bible were written. This turned out to be a stroke of luck historically, because as languages grow through time words change meaning and evolve. We won\'t have that problem with the New Testament because the language it was written in was frozen in time. Almost like it was meant to be.
As to the charge that hypocritical Christians are primarily to blame for the rise in Atheism I would say that this is partially true. Certainly there were atheists throughout history, but never before has the world been as accepting of other beliefs. So I would charge that at least some of the rise in Atheism is due to those atheists feeling secure enough in their surroundings to admit their beliefs.
But there are real a++holes out there who wear the mantle of Christianity. Some even use it for gain. To those I would remind them that Jesus said it will be worse for the man who causes his brother to stumble than for the man who stumbles (paraphrase).
Let it also be said that there are pleanty of a++hole atheists also.
barkel
ps. I would agree that these are all little things to think on. The problem, as I see it, is nobody will. They will argue and get their dander up, which I confess, I did when I read your second to last post. But rather than going home and thinking about it and perhaps even studying it they will assume they hold the keys to the universe and that no further study is necessary.
I would suggest that a person read the New Testament for themselves. Don\'t take my word for it. I think the book is timeless. It addresses issues that will never change. The issues of human suffering and the need to be accepted into a group. It addresses the need for people to help one another out.
