Where do little elves come from?

[Chrispy]

I know I\'m going to get sooooo many punchlines to this, but try and stay reasonable, okay?

I\'ts been bothering me for awhile, ever since the 5th edition codex for the Dark Elves, about how elves and dwarves have young. In the sory surronding Death Night when the Witch Elves take victims, they supposedly steal infants and train them as assassins. In every single thing that has elves/dwarves you never are introduced to the fact they have or used to be children. It\'s probably left out to enhance that timeless quality about them but that\'s not a good enough excuse!!

From a scientific purspective let\'s look at this:
1. We know elves have males and females (we see the males all the time and we have witch elves/Gladreil/whatever)
2. We know we have both male AND female dwarfs (at least in Warhammer, Valllya is the Dwarf Godess of Truth)
3. We know elves can mate (we have half elf characters in other games)

Thus, we know they are capable and do have children but why are there still so few? Perhaps elves can only have one child, but then agian, Tyrion and Teclis are supposed to be brothers..

Also, would elves age like humans, going through puberty around age 12, or do they age slower? If it\'s the second, then they may have to be carried for longer than humans (god know how long that would be for the female). But then that would mean there would be a better chance of seeing a child, as they may look 10 but be 20.. So it must be that they age normally untill they hit a certain age. Most likely it\'s 20-30 for elves and then they don\'t show signs of aging untill their abou to die of old age. In the case of dwarves, the age must be around 50, then they just age slower.

I know it\'s crazy to think about these things, as it\'s akin to wondering if there was a bathroom on the Millenium Falcon, but I think it\'s a vital part of the background.

 

[supervike]

good question....

You never see little elven toddlers running around....

They must run on the basic philosophy that children are better NOT seen or heard....

Can you imagine the size of the hairball in the sink of the Millenium Falcon\'s bathroom? That damn wookie!!

lollollol

 

[darthfoley]

A very interesting topic, Chrispy. I\'ll take something of a stab at it.

In Tolkein, elves are immortal; they are capable of having children and of intermingling with the human race to produce offspring. Case in point: Elrond, who we know has Arwen as his daughter, but who many people are not aware also has twin sons, Elladan and Elrohir. Elrond himself, in fact, is half-elven, IIRC. (Somebody more versed in Tolkein lore can probably correct that...I do not call myself an expert on all things LOTR) Gimli is the son of Gloin, from The Hobbit, and there\'s a bit in the Two Towers with Gimli talking about dwarf women and how they are quite often indistinguishable from dwarf males (many fantasy worlds assign beards to both sexes of the dwarven race). You also have various references to other dwarves ancestry (Thorin, son of Thrain, son of Thror...or Balin, son of Fundin). Kili and Fili of the Hobbit were twins, as well, and the nephews of Thorin himself.

Now, while I\'ve never seen anything that mentioned gestation periods for the \'demi-human\' races, I would imagine they would be protracted. However, I doubt it would be a situation where their gestation would be as exponentially longer as their lifespan. For instance, if we figure the average human life at 70 years, and the average elf at, say, 1000 (just to toss off a D&D number) then the gestation period of an elf if it\'s the same \'rate\' as their lifespan would be around 10 years, if my math is right.

Off the top of my head, the first story that comes to my mind about the \'childhood\' of a demi-human race is the Dark Elf trilogy, which explains in detail all the work and suffering that young Drizzt is put through.

I think that one reason why you never see the childhood stories is because typically writers combine the races in their stories, and due to the aging differences, you can\'t really have, say, a 10 year old human and a 10 year old elf running around together; a ten year old elf is still a toddler by his race\'s standard. Again, I go back to the Dark Elf books, where Drizzt\'s age when he leaves Menzoberranzan is about 50, IIRC...but he\'s basically considered just past puberty in the dark elf world.

I\'m sure others will point out things I\'ve not thought about, but this is about the best I can come up with.

 

[wightzombie]

\"\"\"\"I know I\'m going to get sooooo many punchlines to this, but try and stay reasonable, okay?\"\"\"\"\"

I KNOW WHERE LITTLE DARK ELVES COME FROM! (sinister grin, says accusingly) BME....

\"\"\"I\'ts been bothering me for awhile, ever since the 5th edition codex for the Dark Elves, about how elves and dwarves have young. In the sory surronding Death Night when the Witch Elves take victims, they supposedly steal infants and train them as assassins.\"\"\"\"

yes, they are the ultimate lesbians who cut loose once a red moon and make BME happy. thus since they really dont carry on partner relationships openly they steal dark elf chittlins. then again i wonder what kind of protection they use on that one night...... well it is a red moon...unclean....


\"\"\"In every single thing that has elves/dwarves you never are introduced to the fact they have or used to be children.\"\"\"

yes they all have relationships. but overly they really arent lustfull naturally. when you look at warhammer your more apt to think dark elves would give in to many lusts and smuck like rabbits. however this is countered by thier anti parental atmosphere where you picture growing up is pure chaos. also on top of elves natural reserves about smucking like rabbits, universes like warhammer are geared toward WAR not the birds and the bees unless its part of a story.

also the Hobbit by tolkien gleams on this for younger dwarfs and them andventuring with older dwarfs etc.

as for elven puberty they actually mature faster than humans mentally and physically. once this is done they are slowed down tremendously until death. picture it as what we would consider a very odd combination of genetic diseases.

as to why elves only have a minimum amount of children it is mainly concerned with a near animal mating ritual. female elves are more likely to become pregnant on certain moons, cycles etc. natural lust tapers out very early in a elves life thus sex in the future is just not \"logical\".

actually if your curious into more elf behaviors spock is a classic example and he and the vulcans/romulans were borrowed heavily from tolkien for space uses. everytime you see spock say, \"that is not logical\" think about that and apply it to things humans do and why elves wouldnt. only once in a great while would spock cave in to primal wants or desires.

now as to half elves or \"bastards\" like BME as such , a elve has given in to her or his lust for another species....... yah that sounded.... interesting.

anyway once this is done according to the book of tolkien in the case of aragorn vs arwen notice she had to give up her immortality to be with him. thus half elves may live slightly longer then humans but not even near a lifespan to a regular elve.

as for elves physically aging it is a harmony with thier surroundings that keeps thier skin in such good graces. were they to be removed and subjucated such as slaves you may see a elve with wrinkles. i thhink every elve has a place where he can rest his soul (since elves do not sleep) and this keeps him positively glowing.

dwarves are much the same but are a much hardier race thus can take more physical abuse throughout a life and THEY SHOW IT!

in my role playing world in which im creating with my friend for future games and such we have humans pinned down as the unnatural lust of a male dwarf and a female elf which then creates the human race. the humans retain height and hardiness but lose senses and years in life. humans mental traits are a disregard between the elve and duff for thier respective races thus in a much more magical time thier perspective feelings outlined human tempermant when they mated.

as in the case of twins ala tyrion and teclis these are rare and or special occurances that are gifts from the gods or forseen curses aka the twins will tear the kingdom apart in a blood line dispute much like kings of france or britain did in the hay day.

as for the millenium falcon, dood, your in space, you are in a giant shit hole! open a port window and go wild! have a shit room where you just walk in and dump then open a cargo door and let the escape of oxygen freeze and fly the poop away. do not fly behind a star destroyer! ewwww.....

scenario: it would be cool if warhammer outlined daily life etc for all races and everything they do and how they are structered but as such any hints to this are covered only when essential to the stories of WAR. D&D does a bit of a better job, and things like D20 books covering various universes soemtimes splash on ideas that can be applied similarly to popular universes like D&D warhammer whatever.

i dont think were going to find out anytime soon what a space marines wife does or if they have wives etc or if they just saturate space whores (mmmm.....) with thier gene seed.

 

[Big Mean Elf]

Be`n an Elf...

I`ll help you ...poor human that you are.

Only to hope that common wisdom might prevale.

We Elves have children as do you humans.

You do not see them until they are of age,thus you belive us to be lovely and of a mature stature.

Of course the few worthy to know us for any time....do not live to see the few marks age leaves upon us...this is noticed generally by our own kindred.


Now go find a nice Dragon to play with...

Peace!

 

[mouse]

Hmm.....

Okie, I have had been gaming in D&D (not the 3rd edition crap by WoTC - okie it\'s not so bad) and also AD&D (and many others like Dragonlance, Superheroes, TMNT, FASA, ...) and that\'s an explanation for it.

Elf and Dwarf do mate. They have both male and female counterparts. However, both have differing reasons for fewer offsprings and hence dwindling race syndrome.

Elf view life differently from human. They are always lost in a state of contemplation. Never rushing through life because they got all the time in the world. Hence, they never have the urgency to mate. And although they live in a community, they are often perfecting things around them and their own skills (that\'s why elves are so good at many things, multi-class and such but never progress beyond level 12 - at least in the older version of D&D) after which they just drift off into their minds. They normally have fewer offsprings because that stage in their life often pass them by. As for the youngs, they grow up fast and upon reaching 100, they look like decent adult in human terms although they still show attributes of child-likeness. Moreover, as they live in seclusion, rarely a elf-child is seen by outsiders.

As for dwarves, they are always prideful in their work. Hence, very little time left for courtship. Their life is often taken up by their work and improving it beyond what normal people can do. Also, they are always in skirmish with creatures from the underdark and hence always under attack from various sources. Dwarves are normally depicted as stubborn and will gladly lay down their lives instead of fighting another day. Kin and blood to them is more important than anything else (maybe except their craftmanship). As for dwarven children, they are often beardless and it is necessary for them to fulfill their rightful tasks either in the mines or at the forge. Hence, they don\'t venture out often until they have sprout their beards.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Against my better judgement...

I\'m writing this against my better judgement, but what can you do? lol

Elves are traditionally spirit-like/otherworldly and immortal(ish), yeh? Right then...in Tolkien\'s Middle Earth circa LoTR we are in a time of change...the current age is changing and dying. Elves were of another age but continue through their longevity into the new ages and all that bunkum (i\'m actually enjoying this!). As a spiritual race in a more physical age, they are bound to be dwindling - they are living \'past their time\' if you catch my drift.

Following that through, they are probably as spiritual sexually - and as they\'re from a different time, another world (otherworldly - spiritual) they probably have a different bonding union to the Humans and Dwarfs! Simple!

Dwarfs on the other hand are just longer lived, not immortal, but \'genetically\' their reproduction must slow to fit into that life span or else everywhere you went there\'d be a Dwarf (if indeed you inhabit a world full of Dwarfs).

And until some clever dick publishes
The Joy of Sex for Elves and Dwarfs, that\'s the answer i\'m sticking to

Not that any of it is actually real...

rev lol

 

[mouse]

Originally posted by reverend
...
And until some clever dick publishes
The Joy of Sex for Elves and Dwarfs, that\'s the answer i\'m sticking to

...
rev lol

Try ordering that book in amazon...but you got to wait for reprints. lol

 

[Sand Rat]

umm Keebler?
lol

But seriously, I think that the common idea that you do not see Dwarvish or Elvish young until they reach maturity is probably right. Humans and hobbits are really the only ones who seem to let their young run around like Kender, just to mix a metaphore.

 

[Kamui K]

Yup. I\'m with Mouse on this one.

I don\'t play warhammer, but perhaps these ideas overlap anyway from D&D.

Most of your answers can be found in the 2nd Ed. D&D Handbook of Elves (the best of the race book ever produced IMHO).

They tackle several theories on pregnacy, coming of age, mind set through life, and whatever.

I think another theory on why there aren\'t so many elven children was cause for female elves, their pregnacy lasts years compared to our meer 9 months.
So even when a female is ripe and is impregnated, carrying around a fetus for years leads to plenty of miscarriage. So other elves no doubt take her away in seclusion so you\'ll rarely see any pregnant elves as well.

In general, it seems that there are just more problications for elves.

I\'m sure there\'s way more theories on this in the book (it\'s been years since I\'ve read it). But in Forgotten Realms (2nd Ed\'s main world) clearly states that elves are dying off, so in the Elves book, they give a few ideas on how a DM can tackle on the subject.

Trust me, pick up this book. It\'s a good read.
God knows how Wizard\'s gonna ruin the race handbooks in 3rd Ed.

 

[finn17]

It is like a \'head\' on a starship.

I\'ve eventually mustered the courage to read this thread and whilst it is actually a lot more sensible than I would have suspected I am sure the answer is a lot simpler than the speculation.

We don\'t know. because we don\'t need to know. It would appear to be the same with all the non-human type fantasy races. What about Orcs, Orks and Goblins for instance. There is the Tolkien breeding vat type idea and the spore hypothesis etc. No real explanation though.

On a similar vein, how does Santa get to visit so many houses in 24 hours when GPO and UPS take forever.

Some things should always remain a mystery:bouncy:

 

[Sand Rat]

Well, I know that the Hogfather can visit all those houses because he works outside of time - somehow I figure thats how Santa does it also

 

[darthfoley]

I think another theory on why there aren\'t so many elven children was cause for female elves, their pregnacy lasts years compared to our meer 9 months.

Makes you wonder how there is ever a male human/female elf half elven child born. By the time the kid shows up daddy is on oxygen....

 

[Infidel Castro]

Ho hO!

\"Why isn\'t your daddy playing hide and seek with us Tittanthapalas?\" asked Getlostinus.

\"Oh, he\'s on a ventilator...\"

Ho ho!

Nice one Darth Foley

lol

rev