Yeah, I feel like starting....

[EArkham]

Usually when one is discussing education, one is talking about reading, writing, and math as opposed to more specialized subjects. College was for advanced subjects, if one showed the capability.

Education is so much more than reading, writing, and arithmetic, and college was not simply a matter of showing capability. Education is about availability, accessibility, and cost. You had to be wealthy and not black to take advantage of college in the 1800s, and it would help if you also weren\'t a woman. Most in the 1800s were simply uneducated. Education was vastly improved from the start of the 1800s to the later years (the seperation of students by grade wasn\'t even introduced until around 1850, and only one state mandated school attendance before the Civil War), but that improvement doesn\'t compare to today\'s base of knowledge.

Computers? It\'s not fair to consider something that hasn\'t been invented yet and has no bearing on the general level of education.

Of course it\'s fair; this thread is a comparison of now and days gone. Ignoring the effect of computers on education is like ignoring the effect of the printing press on education. Twelve and thirteen year olds today have essentially free, 24-7 access to the world\'s accumulated knowledge of physics, language, philosophy, and cultures from around the world. How can that NOT have an effect on the educated?

Yes, today there are a lot of kids who simply refuse to learn. Yes, there are drugs, sex, and guns in schools. Yes, there are poorly trained and paid teachers. And yes, there is so much more room for improvement. But those children who do become educated -- and there are so many more being educated than there were in the 1800s -- are going to be significantly more educated than their 1800s counterparts.

TLDR version: Average kid today can certainly at least read, write, add, and subtract (and likely can do so much more since he/she has easy access to information). Average kid in 1800s was uneducated and likely couldn\'t do any of those basic things without great difficulty (and had extremely limited access to information for educational improvement).



Kep

 

[Wendy]

Originally posted by EArkham
Most in the 1800s were simply uneducated.... Average kid in 1800s was uneducated and likely couldn\'t do any of those basic things without great difficulty (and had extremely limited access to information for educational improvement).



Kep

Really? You have had some misinformation.

You\'re seriously arguing that educational standards haven\'t dropped off?

 

[Wendy]

Originally posted by EArkham

...are you seriously arguing that there\'s not a huge difference between health care in 1949 with no vaccine against a widespread, debilitating and potentially deadly disease and today\'s health care where it\'s all but eradicated (and people can only get polio from the oral vaccine, and then it\'s ~1 in 700k)...?

When did I ever say their wasn\'t a difference between health care now and 1949? There\'s a huge difference and it\'s not all positive.

With regards to polio, increased sanitation and better nutrition made more difference. See here.

 

[Wendy]

Originally posted by pez5767
Perhaps we all just long for simplicity? In our minds, earlier generations were free of many of the trappings and complexities of our modern world. Are we better off for those complexities? In many ways sure. Are we any happier? If so, I don\'t see it.

\"Let that which truly does not matter slide.\"
-Fight Club

Each generation has its own complexities. We have far, far, far more free time than past generations. Speaking of which, I\'ve used up mine.

 

[treide]

Originally posted by Wendy

With regards to polio, increased sanitation and better nutrition made more difference. See here.

Directly from the link you posted:

\"The manufacture and widespread use of several vaccines beginning in the 1950s drastically reduced the number of cases of poliomyelitis. In the United States, the last reported case of polio acquired from a wild-type (original form of a naturally occurring) virus was in 1979.\"

Where does it say that sanitation and better nutrition had a bigger effect on eradicating polio than the vaccines? Vaccines are probably the most important advance in medicine in recent history along with antibiotics.

 

[pez5767]

Originally posted by Wendy

Each generation has its own complexities. We have far, far, far more free time than past generations. Speaking of which, I\'ve used up mine.

Actually, a recent study... forgive me I can\'t find the exact one here... showed that Americans have the least free time, and work the longest hours of any modern economic power. More stress and less free time... but hey look at the great results we get for our economy and sense of national pride...Good thinking!

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Wendy

Originally posted by EArkham
Most in the 1800s were simply uneducated.... Average kid in 1800s was uneducated and likely couldn\'t do any of those basic things without great difficulty (and had extremely limited access to information for educational improvement).



Kep

Really? You have had some misinformation.

You\'re seriously arguing that educational standards haven\'t dropped off?

This is debatable - there is no question that the amount of pure fact-learning has been lowered (1890 test), but this is in part because we have learned that it is far more improtant to learn the skills to FIND the facts you need, and the skills to USE the facts as you find them - learning the facts in itself is fairly useless in an information society.

However there is also a certain amount of knowledge you need in order to function in the normal society, and when you go below that level you really are just...stupid.

Allthough we here in Europe tend to laugh out loud when we see clever soundbites with stupid americans who doesn´t know their own president or where Mexico is, I´m pretty sure that these people are a very small minority.
---

As a sidenote just yesterday I sat in complete AWE as I saw a program about intelligent design, and how a school had tried to use a textbook that stated that evolution was only a theory, and that intelligent design was an equal (or even better) theory - and only because most of the schoolboard was chreationists and couldn´t accept evolution within their faith. I was quite frankly appaled.

 

[ScottRadom]

I can\'t conceive that we\'re really looking to the 19th century as an age with more appeal vs. our current state. Does simple really equate with quality?

We\'ve got electric lights, cars, the internet, life rocks. To go back to the wood stove era and romanticize it is awful for me. But I am typing this from Western Canada. 110+ years ago here there was nothing, and life was real hard. To go back and think they had it better is just not really possible.

I still don\'t get it. What\'s the debate about here? We\'re calling their lives back then less complicated even though round about here your next meal was not just waiting in the firdge for you. Was it the fact that in 18xx people weren\'t bombarded by bad news from parts fo the world that really didn\'t affect them?

This debate about modern health vs. past is goofy. Surgery in 1860 vs today? C\'mon.

I don\'t get it. But I am a happy person. Does anyone here who thinks things were better back then want to state if they\'re happy in their life? I\'m just guessing this appeal of years gone by may be a reflection of struggles in their life. Not picking on anyone, just genuinely interested.

There was a topic on the Wyrd mini forum regarding life 10 years ago and now, and I was suprised some of the answers indicating how unhappy some seemed to be with their current life.

Just curious.

 

[wiccanpony]

that’s why we have reenactment clubs and Society of Creative Acronism.all the fun of Yore but without the black plague

I\'m very glad to be living in the here and now..other wise I would of died at a young age

 

[Evil Dave]

I don\'t think anyone here is arguing that the scientific advances aren\'t great.
Just that the society of today seems to have it\'s collective ass screwed on backwards.

 

[wiccanpony]

I think most people in every century thought their society had it\'s collective ass screwed on backwards.

 

[Jericho]

Originally posted by JesterzUSMC
Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor\'s car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt...
1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman.
2008 - Billy\'s dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy\'s sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy\'s mom has an affair with the psychologist.

In a few years, I could be that psychologist :twisted:

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by wiccanpony
I think most people in every century thought their society had it\'s collective ass screwed on backwards.

Yep, that\'s it! I was trying how to say that, but you did it pretty simply! Waita witch it up!

There are rules to life,

-Everyone\'s bosses are stupid
-Parents just don\'t know what it\'s like to be a kid
-Things were always better before.

Today rules! If you don\'t agree I think that I go along with Donna and think things were just as shitty \"back in the day\" as they are now.

 

[EArkham]

Originally posted by SlahThis is debatable - there is no question that the amount of pure fact-learning has been lowered (1890 test), but this is in part because we have learned that it is far more improtant to learn the skills to FIND the facts you need, and the skills to USE the facts as you find them - learning the facts in itself is fairly useless in an information society.

Bingo. I don\'t know about anyone else, but this very lesson is the most important one I learned from school. All the rote memorization of American Presidents, or state capitals, or taxonomic ranks, or the Periodic table... completely useless.

By the way, aside from the archaic references and out-of-date questions, that test is barely any different than some of those I took in school. Just like now, students certainly had some period of preparation for it, memorized it to spit back for the test, and then never thought about most of that info again.

Originally posted by ScottRadomWe\'ve got electric lights, cars, the internet, life rocks. To go back to the wood stove era and romanticize it is awful for me. But I am typing this from Western Canada. 110+ years ago here there was nothing, and life was real hard. To go back and think they had it better is just not really possible.

I still don\'t get it. What\'s the debate about here? We\'re calling their lives back then less complicated even though round about here your next meal was not just waiting in the firdge for you. Was it the fact that in 18xx people weren\'t bombarded by bad news from parts fo the world that really didn\'t affect them?

Yup, that\'s pretty much it. It\'s purely romanticizing a few aspects of the past and ignoring all the advances, all the changes in scale, all the contributing factors, and all the cultural changes that have radically altered the world.

Just to be painfully clear, I do not think the American education system today is perfect. In fact, in my opinion, it\'s pretty craptastically awful, and needs major improvement and radical changes. But it is far better than the 1800s for no other reason than because millions more people have free access to it and the knowledge of a worldwide information society.

Done.

Kep

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Originally posted by wiccanpony
I think most people in every century thought their society had it\'s collective ass screwed on backwards.

Reminds me of a book I read a way\'s back called something like \"The Good Old Days and Other Myths\". I gave an account of, I think it was Denver was having a huge problem with teenage pregnancy, drug use, violence, rape, gangs etc..... The date of the story was in the mid 1800\'s.

The more things change the more they stay the same - updated technology but the same human heart.

 

[Naukhel]

Ten years ago, I wasn\'t married yet.

OH, for the good old days!

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Naukhel
Ten years ago, I wasn\'t married yet.

OH, for the good old days!

AMEN to that my brother

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Originally posted by Naukhel
Ten years ago, I wasn\'t married yet.

OH, for the good old days!

\"when he was single his pockets would jingle, oh how he wishes he were single again\"