Your Favorite Fantasy Skirmish Game?

[pez5767]

Hey Gang,

I come to you vexed. I\'m a regular 40k and WHFB player. However, I can\'t seem to find a skirmish level fantasy game I really enjoy. When Mordheim came out I played it to death with my friends so I\'m not interested in going back. I want a game that puts some of the heroics back in fantasy, like those good old days of D&D; big monsters and heros and such.
So, long story longer, I\'m looking for a skirmish level fantasy game that is a lot of fun to play. I\'ve followed the Rackham line of models for some time, and like everyone else, I love the style and quality of their work. However, I\'m not sure if this is a game for me. I\'m aware that Confrontation has switched over to PPP models and I\'m not entirely sure if Hybrid has been discontinued. I\'d love any feedback on either of these games and a first-hand acount of all thing Rackham.
I\'ve poked around on-line a little bit and I find myself with the following questions for those of you who have a suggestion regarding a game you have played and enjoy:

1. How good are the miniatures and how is the game?

2. What makes the game system/mechanics unique?

3. How many models (per side) do you need on average to play your game?

4. What will I (as a regular GW player) find unique and interesting about this game?

I\'ve looked around a fair bit, I\'m really curious to hear first hand accounts from those who play these games or have experience with them.

Thanks a zillion!

???[

 

[Amazon warrior]

About Hybrid:

I just got this game (and the expansion, Nemesis). No game yet (due to a technical problem and a lack of opposition!), but the game boxes sure do have shiny production values. In Hybrid, you get: a rulebook, score sheets, a reference table, a couple of d10s, a Dirz and a Griffin box set, a Hybrid-unique figure for each force, cards and a bunch of tiles, counters and doors. The Nemesis box contains one Dirz and two Griffin figures that are unavailable anywhere else, plus more cards, tiles, corridors, doors and counters. The cardboard pieces are satisfyingly thick and glossy- they look very durable. In one of the Cry Havocs, there are also rules for using the Cadwallon tiles in Hybrid, taking you outside the laboratory. Regarding the cards in the boxes- no problems on the Nemesis front, all present and correct, but unfortunately I\'ve managed to buy a Hybrid box with half the right cards, and half the wrong ones (a random pack of Confrontation cards in Italian!). I\'m praying like a mad\'un that I\'ll be able to get R to replace these.

Like I said, I\'ve yet to play a game, but one of the reasons I picked it up was because it does have some very good reviews. I have heard that the rules are not terribly well translated, tho (a familiar problem with Rackham). However, by asking the right person nicely you can get hold of an independent translation and clarification of the rules (if you have a copy of the game), which helps a lot. (I have it, and it\'s packed with useful information.) The size of the squad that you need depends on the scenario you choose- each one specifies a number of models and a total rank (figures have ranks between 1 and 5), so you have some choice as to what you use. Squads are usually less than 10 figures.

As for support and expansion, that\'s more tricky. The games come with a few extra profiles for both Griffin and Dirz fighters that you can buy retail, but if you want cards for any of the other factions (like Cynwall, Lions, Ophidians, etc), some come in the blisters (assuming the old cards are still available), but pretty much the only way to get hold of most of them is to buy the back-issues of Cry Havoc (which I did, and am very glad of). Unfortunately, with the change in system and a switch to PPP and circular bases, I\'m not sure what the future holds in terms of support by Rackham. I\'m told the round bases will be bigger and will not fit on the squares. I\'m waiting to see what\'ll happen there. If you can get hold of the rest of the available Hybrid cards and the metal minis (or if you already have them), you should have a lot of variety for a while to come, tho.

Um, well, I hope some of this was useful- you mentioned Hybrid and Rackham in your post. Sorry if I wittered. Hope you find a game that suits.

 

[MPJ]

Reaper\'s Warlord game is pretty spiffy, I shant go into details here but check it out on their website. :drunk:

 

[pez5767]

@MPJ:
Oh please do go into it! I purchased the Warlords rulebook and I just didn\'t see the appeal. Can you expand on it (your likes and don\'t likes) a bit?

@Amazon W:
Thanks for the review. I\'m really keen on Rackham atm and I\'m feeling like I missed the boat on the metal minis being that I\'m just getting excited about Rackhams product. Hybrid might be a great intro for me.

 

[Amazon warrior]

Glad it was useful. Hybrid could be a good way to get a toe in the door. I understand that Rackham won\'t be selling the metal minis with their C3 cards once their card stock runs out, but they have said that you\'ll still be able to buy the metal figures by themselves. Not sure when they\'re going to do a restock of their online store, tho! They\'re moving at the moment, so everything on their site is in suspended animation.

 

[DaRat]

I like Warlord as well.

1. How good are the miniatures and how is the game?

The minis are very well sculpted. And, given the very liberal proxy rules (essentially, any Reaper mini, as long as it is on the right sized base, can stand in for any Warlord mini, with a few exceptions), the whole Reaper catalog is open for use.

The game itself is fun because the game is balanced and plays quickly. Tactics and strategy matter, but so does luck to some degree (mostly in the order of initiative and that a 10 always hits). The rules are relatively simple, but there is enough depth in model abilities, tactics, and strategy to keep things interesting. Balanced, combined arm armies generally win over specialist armies (for most scenarios).

The game scales well from really small games to very large ones.

2. What makes the game system/mechanics unique?

I\'m not sure how unique individual elements are. Some points are:

• random order of initiative that changes each turn
• attacked minis get defensive strikes
• models have different special abilities (which lends depth)
• mini cost is determined by amount of metal and complexity of casting, not how powerful the model is in the game
• very liberal proxy rules

3. How many models (per side) do you need on average to play your game?

Really small games, around 10. Medium sized games 15-30 or so if you are going relatively balanced. You can get some large games with very few minis if you take all expensive minis (like cavalry, heroes, and monster) and buff them up.

4. What will I (as a regular GW player) find unique and interesting about this game?

Lower cost of entry, particularly because you are paying for metal and casting cost, not how many points a mini is worth in the game.

Minis are all metal (except for the base).

Factions are mostly standard archetypes except for possibly the undead pirates (Razig) and the Bloodstone Gnomes.

Factions are generally pretty well balanced.

Yearly updates are free.

 

[Shadzar]

Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures

Originally posted by pez5767
1. How good are the miniatures and how is the game?
Sculpting quality was going up for previous set,s but with the new CAD style they are beginning to look cartoony. Being prepainted means you can play now/ paint later. Not many are very good for painting, but some things can be done with them to improve them. If you don\'t care about painting but jsut playing quick games they are easy enough for that.

The game was fairly odd, and the new converting to 2.0 rules seems to remvoe a lot of the oddities. Things like morale which led creatures to \"fallback\" and retreat in the 40k sense no longer happen. Creatures are around under the are eliminated. They no longer run away. The new game seems like it would be fun, and if you don\'t have a buttload of pieces form the older sets you can get into it with no problem. http://www.wizards.com/dnd and just click on the miniatures links to find the newest rulebook, and current available cards from the two newest older sets. Desert of Desolation and Night Below, with Unhallowed 2.0 cards soon to be in beta. The rulebook will give you the skinny on gameplay and should be enough to give you an idea with those PDF card sets of what it would be like, but any other questions fielded about it will be answered if possible.

2. What makes the game system/mechanics unique?
D&D 4th edition rules...the game is now so closely tied to the newest edition they are almost one in the same. it is basically a skirmish game for playing out battle in D&D. the \"evolution\" of chainmail in both its incarnations, with a splattering of BattleSystem(tm) thrown into it and all updated to the 4th edition.


3. How many models (per side) do you need on average to play your game?
depends on the point range.
8 for 100 points
10 for 200 points
something like that. it is in the rulebook the different point ranges and maximum miniature allowed per point range.

of course some miniatures violated the mini count rules by not counting towards the maximum so long as you could afford the points and had the requirements: Night Below 1.0 Bat Familiar, 8 points, doesnt count towards mini count for warband building. Requires spellcaster.

for 1.0 DDM the points were anything, 8 minis.

tournaments were standard 200 point and epic 500 point, but you could feasibly play any point range you wanted.


4. What will I (as a regular GW player) find unique and interesting about this game?
Warforged pieces look like anceint space marines.... of course all the iconic fantasy races are their from a WFB standpoint. elves, orcs, dwarves, etc.

there is no rulebook for each army. one rulebok to play them all. each mini comes with its own stat card. 2.0 DDM comes out either tomorrow or next week. previous sets will require downloading and printing the cards out as they currently will not be offered professionally printed.

for the price of a land raider you can actually get from some places a prebuilt warband that is close to teir 1. tournament playable. it is a collectible game with random figures, but you can buy singles form most places, namely eBay.

all you need to start playing other than the rulebook is one booster of minis. for @$15 USD. you an an opponent can play a sealed game per the rules and just play with what comes in the booster pack. then if you dont like it you have got 8-10 minis (don\'t remember the new distribution) for $15 and that all you need to spend if you don\'t like the game. or you could playtest any of the PDF version cards from the older sets (which are free) and use proxies minis to see if you will like them.

the game is played on a grided map. less freeform movent but also less setup time for terrain. if you like building terrain some people have ben known to build their own cavern walls to place on maps as well as pits under them to show depth in the 2d map. being gridded it has the advanged of easier counting. the even removing the pythagorean counting from the last set so every swuare on the grid is one away form the next to make quicker play.

 

[matty1001]

Originally posted by Shadzar
one rulebok to play them all.

...and in the darkness bind them?

 

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by matty1001

Originally posted by Shadzar
one rulebok to play them all.

one eBay to find them
one postal service to bring them all
...and in the darkness bind them?

 

[pez5767]

@ Shadzar
Thanks for the info on DDM. I\'ve been curiuos about that for a while, I am a mini painter first however, so the PPP is a bit of a turn off. I\'ll check it out at the next con I go to. Thanks.

@ DaRat:
I picked up the Rule book and I have to admit I wasn\'t blown away. However, based on your review I\'ll go give it another read. Do you know of any other places that offer a review of the game, or an example of game play? I am really curious about this one because I like the idea of proxying (sp?) any fantasy model to fill spots in the game. Thanks for all the great info.

 

[pez5767]

Are there any Confrontation 3 players or Hordes players out there who would like to share about their game?
???

 

[Amazon warrior]

Unfortunately, while I am an avid collector of the Rackham minis and have silly numbers of Wolfen and elves, I can count the number of actual games I\'ve played on one hand! :~(

I have a Circle Warpack for Hordes, and it looks like an interesting game, but I\'m not sure it\'s exactly a skirmish game. You do seem to need units to get stuff done in the long term. Some of the minis are lovely, some a bit less so, but that\'s just my opinion and true of almost any mini line.

 

[DaRat]

Do you know of any other places that offer a review of the game, or an example of game play? I am really curious about this one because I like the idea of proxying (sp?) any fantasy model to fill spots in the game.

Your best bet for getting a feel for the game is to play a demo. Reaper has a demo team called Black Lightning that gives demos. The Reaper website has a list of demo events.

The Fictional Reality e-zine has some old Warlord Battle reports. These may be somewhat informative, but the game has changed a bit with the release of the 2007 and 2008 updates (more depth, better balance, cavalry, flyers, and burrowers are useful) so the game play will be different.

The last two issues had an army building (with considerable proxying) and an army painting article. The next version is due to have a current battle report.

 

[MPJ]

Originally posted by pez5767
@MPJ:
Oh please do go into it! I purchased the Warlords rulebook and I just didn\'t see the appeal. Can you expand on it (your likes and don\'t likes) a bit?

@Amazon W:
Thanks for the review. I\'m really keen on Rackham atm and I\'m feeling like I missed the boat on the metal minis being that I\'m just getting excited about Rackhams product. Hybrid might be a great intro for me.

Luckily DaRat stepped in with a great explanation of Warlord. Unfortunately I am a mini collector/painter first and foremost, so while I have owned many mini gaming books/systems and have read them I don\'t actually have a lot of experience playing them. Preferring rather to use them as inspiration for collecting and/or painting. Even though I\'ve owned pretty much every version of WFB and 40k (plus just about every other PoS they have put out) I\'ve prolly played less than 20 games of that stuff in my life.

 

[ktooloo]

-If you can find it... games Workshop put out a skirmish level rulebook (large pamphlet really) for Fantasy. It was about 6 years ago though. Basically, it was smaller point armies and every unit had Skirmish (or whatever the trait is that says a regiment doesn\'t have to be in formation). Also you could just use like 3 of these guys and 2 of those and make a 8-12 model little group. It was a lot like Kill Team games in 40K

-Warmachine/Hordes are both solid games with really nice minis. Basic attack mechanics are as simple as 40K, but there are more modifiers so it can get a little more involved (in a good way though). You can play small games with about 9-10 minis and large games with a couple dozen.

-Other games I can think of, but haven\'t played: Warlord, Celtos, original Confrontation

- As for PPP games, I haven\'t picked up the new Confrontation yet, sorry. Mage Knight (oop) was fairly good. There\'s a World Of Warcraft PPP game coming out later this year or next year.


:beer:

 

[generulpoleaxe]

use to use the second edition shadowrun rules for table top skirmish games.

seceral players who had a mission and a gm controling npcs.

use 1 cm on the table for 1m and rock and roll.

beat the crap out of 40k, mordenheim, confrontation and many other skirmish level games i have played over the years.

(basicly what inquisitor should have been)

 

[pez5767]

@ktooloo
Thanks for the listing. Some gems in there I had forgotten to ask about. I saw the post for the WOW PPP CMG (lol how\'s that for geek speak!?). Anyway, I was surprised by the lack of quality I saw in the demo models they posted on the web site... I thought they kinda looked like the DDM game models... pretty rough.

Others?

 

[Pastor Prime]

I played a lot of C3 and even the much hated C3.5.. I loved/love the system. I would not want to play C3 in a tournament setting as the later releases got very broken very quickly (morzath is out of control!) Confrontation is a thinking mans game with lots of rules and lots of special characteristics. Every level of the game has strategy, especially the stacking of decks (the way you activate your minis) and the placing of combat dice (decides if you get to attack or defend or some of both) Every model (usually 8 - 15 in a typical game) feels like its own unique piece and is typically very important. Not to mention that the production values were way beyond what anyone was doing or has done since. The first issues of Cry Havoc were truly classy. The models also happen to be some of the best around. They also released \"dogs of war\" which turned the C3 system into a campaign, similar to Mordhiem.

The downsides are that the complicated rules make for long games with LOTS of gray areas. The translations are very bad. The game is no longer supported. Rackham has dropped all it\'s production values from sculpting to studio paintjobs to packaging.

I\'d also seriously consider Warmachine and Hordes. Both are really great and loads of fun. Well supported with quicker gameplay and more chances for \"heroic action.\"

Another line of really great minis is made for Helldorado as well as the upcoming Alkemy game. I haven\'t played either but the sculpts are good enough to catch my eye and interest.

If you want to go futuristic \"infinity\" is awesome. Really detailed rules and great minis. Plays fast and shooting is DEADLY. Different than other skirmish games in its play style.

Hope this helps.

 

[pez5767]

@Pastor:
Thanks for the info on Confrontation 3/3.5 it\'s been tough to get much first hand experience from people. I\'m not worried about the game being complicated if the pay-off is there. What I mean is if the rules are complex, it\'s worth it if the game is a lot of fun in the end. About how long would you say an average game (8-15 models) would take? I\'m all set for Sci-Fi atm I\'m into DarkAge right now, great rules, fast paced, amazing art and minis. HellDorado caught my eye as well, but the mini\'s seem dreadfully inconsistant... some look amazing, some look really rough. Anything more you could tell me about Confrontation would be great.

Thanks for the info!

 

[pez5767]

Where are the Warlords players?

What\'s the wyrd miniatures skirmish game all about?

How about descent?

???