Alien Contact: Controversial Subject matter.

[cleen X]

I agree, to voice your opinion however is a good thing I think and this is just another thing most people wont agree upon. I probsbly sounded a little more angry than I was in my post, it was just that I read the comments on the vote link fot the diorama and some of those comments was just abusive towards the artist almost blaming him for liking the act he did portray. The discusson on this forum I find very good and constructive however.
And DrEvilmonki, you disagreed with the statement that people should not talk about things they dont like because it draws attention towards it. With this you make a great point defending the artist, do you think he likes the act he is portraying? I assume you dont, its the artist way to put attention to things negative about the society we live in. The artist is not afraid to portray things he dissagrees with, it shows us maybe some of the flaws in humankind and shows how cruel and evil we can be. Perhaps some people dont want to see it because its too real, well thats the whole point in my mind! Whenever the artist sees something negative he would like to put attention upon, whatever way of communication he uses, he does judt that! Not fearing what people will think of him. That makes Nakatan a better artist than most of us in my mind

 

[Chern Ann]

THIS is something new, and I was rather hoping it wasn't going to set up shop here. It's becoming apparent that there is nowhere that is out-of-bounds here; honestly, why even bother having submissions moderated first?

You make a lot of assumptions about the inner workings of a site that serves millions of images a month, and has been doing so more or less consistently for almost 10 years, and doing a considerable disservice to the dedicated moderators who do their volunteer work without complaint or expectation of reward. This is nothing new, careful browsing of the site will throw up the occasional treatment of sexual violence. I would suggest you reflect on where your comments cross the realm from legitimate complaint into histrionic hyperbole, I fear you have already treaded quite far into that territory with a silly throw away insult.

And I do believe in limits; some things I'll accept, others I'll shake my head and ignore, and still others are too much for me. It's not hypocrisy, it's human bloody nature! And I hate to think that some day no depiction of human misery or depravity will be extreme enough that no-one will look at it and say "whoah, that goes too far."

So, you're actually saying you would take the time to complain about a scene where an Eldar disembowels a human guardsman who has no pants on? I find that incredulous, if not outright disingenuous given the rather graphic nature of the 40k universe, the content of this site up till now and your avowed "anti-sexual violence" stance. Shrilling at ever louder and more ridiculous volumes does not assist you in getting a point across, and I find it difficult to discern where you draw the line.

"Woman under threat of sexual violence - No." ?
"Androgynous Eldar kiling opposing faction - Yes" ?
"Androgynous Eldar killing opposing faction after being threatened with sexual violence - No" ?
"Executioner actually beheading unarmed civilians - Roll eyes" ?
"Executioner about to behead unarmed civilians - Yes" ?
"Executioner with his pants down about to behead a man - Roll eyes" ?
"Executioner with his pants down about to behead a woman - No" ?
"Executioner about to take his pants down, with woman pleading for her life - Hell no" ?
"Woman executioner about to take her pants down, with man pleading for his life" ????

And this is just you. So taking your confusing (assuming you are not simply confused) standards of personal taste in consideration, should we now then interview each of our 50,000 members, and hundreds of thousands of casual visitors as to their personal tastes for all possible permutations of a very dark genre? Or are you stating that your views represent the desires of a silent majority (which it may, or may not, I have no way of telling, and I'd be surprised if you do). If so, I would very much like to see your comprehensive list and guidelines for acceptable exhibition of art; no doubt the other members of this community can assist in refining it.

As you have acknowledged, where your personal limits are are not particularly relevant when there are many others participating in a community with limits different from yours. Where you find there are some places you absolutely cannot bring yourself to go, that I can understand, and some kind of controversy filter to shield the more sensitive amongst us would probably be a good thing for those who do not wish to be provoked or challenged. However, attempting to dictate what someone else can express on some kind of moral absolutist high horse is something that does not sit at all well with me or the spirit of the site.

In case I'm not being 100% clear: "Arg my eyes, never show this crap to me again" is a perfectly acceptable opinion. "Just imagining making this, let alone actually doing it, is a crime against us all... NO ONE MUST BE ALLOWED TO SEE IT" is histrionic and makes sifting the actual merit from your post more difficult than necessary.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

Hey Chern I dont think you and a fair number of others are being fair to gearhead at all.

Vike started THIS thread to discuss THIS piece of work. To then jump on somone who gives their opinion on it because they arent discussing other works as well looks pretty poor in my opinion. And Chern while you are obviously proud of your site (and in my opinion rightly so) jumping so heavily on someone because of such a throw away comment makes you look exceedingly thin skinned.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

And DrEvilmonki, you disagreed with the statement that people should not talk about things they dont like because it draws attention towards it. With this you make a great point defending the artist, do you think he likes the act he is portraying? I assume you dont,

I havent made any comment on the work itself. In fact while I find the act it is portraying distasteful (and the argument that that the end isnt written to be exceedingly weak), I do not in fact have much of an issue with it being on the site., except...

I do think there could be a bit more of an effort on the part of CMON to shield adult content better, again I dont find the terms of use conditions to be an adequate argument to allowing adult content to be freely viewed when no age verification is used to prevent people from seeing this.

 

[Gearhead]

You make a lot of assumptions about the inner workings of a site that serves millions of images a month, and has been doing so more or less consistently for almost 10 years..., careful browsing of the site will throw up the occasional treatment of sexual violence.

Based on what you had said, it made me wonder if there is anything that you would consider inappropriate or unacceptable for posting on the site. And if "careful browsing" will throw up past examples of similar themes, than isn't it possible that I haven't come across them?

I would suggest you reflect on where your comments cross the realm from legitimate complaint into histrionic hyperbole, I fear you have already treaded quite far into that territory with a silly throw away insult.

According to the logic presented by several in this thread, I just put it out there and it's up to the reader to extract what they will from it.

So, you're actually saying you would take the time to complain about a scene where an Eldar disembowels a human guardsman who has no pants on? I find that incredulous, if not outright disingenuous given the rather graphic nature of the 40k universe, the content of this site up till now and your avowed "anti-sexual violence" stance.

It doesn't take much time to post a comment saying "this is over the top" or "I think this is in bad taste" or, as is said surprisingly often, "great work on the painting, but I really don't like the scene." But as I already said, it seems like it'd be a waste of time, since it won't accomplish anything.

Shrilling at ever louder and more ridiculous volumes does not assist you in getting a point across, and I find it difficult to discern where you draw the line.

Didn't realize I was coming off as shrill. As I've said before (though admittedly, that may have been in another discussion,) lines are, by their very nature, bound to be rather fuzzy, shifting, and kinda hard to pin down exactly.

However, attempting to dictate what someone else can express on some kind of moral absolutist high horse is something that does not sit at all well with me or the spirit of the site.

I've obviously gotten up your nose, and I'm sorry. However, much like you're accusing many of us of doing, you're reading more into my statements than I'm intending to put there. I am not advocating the complete stifling of everything that I find distasteful; people are going to create and express such things (and worse) whether I say yay or neigh (from up on my horse, you see.) What I can do is say whether or not I think something is right to be displayed in a particular venue, in this case CMON. I felt this piece was not, but it's your site and you get the say, so I was clearly mistaken.

Whenever a conversation comes up, there are going to be some (like television producers, for example,) who always insist on having clearly defined algorithms for what's appropriate or not. How much blood? How much ass? How much of a boob? Maybe just a tiny bit of nip? What if, how about, why not? They always want to know what the absolute limit is, so they can plant their material right up against it. That strikes me as, well, I can't think of the right adjective for it, but it strikes me as silly. One should be able to figure for themselves what's more-or-less okay, and what's way overboard, and if they're constantly wanting to know exactly how much they can get away with, it makes me wonder just how far they would happily sprint if given free rein.

I don't understand why people accuse me of hypocrisy because I accept some things but don't accept all. And it's very irritating when people say that because I don't accept everything, then I clearly don't accept anything. Can you (and this is for everyone, not just Chern,) honestly say that there is nothing so horrible or depraved or graphic that you would not post it to the site? Because if there is, then you're doing the same thing I am, and the source of our differences is that my hazy, gray, shifting boundary is a bit closer in than yours.

 

[Decoy]

It is all about innovation.
Nakatan just changed perspective - new horizonts in the world of toy soldiers.
GW creates chaos demons - do they look brutal? First demon probably, after decades demons are boring cliche.
I think we will see a lot of such diorams in the future because Pandora box is oped, interest is huge and forum butthurt is just great )
Only true artist can do it, and Nakatan did. Changed future

 

[Torn blue sky]

I havent made any comment on the work itself. In fact while I find the act it is portraying distasteful (and the argument that that the end isnt written to be exceedingly weak), I do not in fact have much of an issue with it being on the site., except...

I do think there could be a bit more of an effort on the part of CMON to shield adult content better, again I dont find the terms of use conditions to be an adequate argument to allowing adult content to be freely viewed when no age verification is used to prevent people from seeing this.

I absolutely agree with this. There does seem to be to an amount of "sensitive souls" on this site. Even though the indication is 18+. Maybe section it in a manner that would appear to say "Do not click if you're a jackass with a one dimensional opinion" I actually agree with DR E on the matter of Gearhead not being the bad guy but sticking by his moral guns. So just accept that as we accept all other opinions. That or take Cassars advice and fuck off and let it well be.

 

[freakinacage]

It is all about innovation.
Nakatan just changed perspective - new horizonts in the world of toy soldiers.
GW creates chaos demons - do they look brutal? First demon probably, after decades demons are boring cliche.
I think we will see a lot of such diorams in the future because Pandora box is oped, interest is huge and forum butthurt is just great )
Only true artist can do it, and Nakatan did. Changed future

quiet and do more steampunk stuff!!

although, as mentioned, i have no problem with most subject being dealt with, as long as it is done in a 'tasteful' way, i do agree that a nsfw button for stuff like this would be nice. i never have anyone looking over my shoulder while browsing but it could be embarrassing in some situations. not the end of the world but a simple spoiler type thing that you click on it to open the pic if it's flagged as nsfw. i e much more adult themed stuff like this and some of the kinkier models (ie clunge out)

 

[Gearhead]

If we acted on even half of the censorship demands stemming from personal taste or opinion, it'd be a gallery of studio paint jobs and imitations of such.

I couldn't disagree more, though of course I don't know the scope of the requests for removal that you get. This site is jam-packed with absolutely TONS of examples of pieces that demonstrate peoples' creativity, skill, talent, wit, thoughfulness, and above all uniqueness, whose creators didn't feel the need to "provoke or challenge" anyone.

quiet and do more steampunk stuff!!

LOL! I'm with freakinacage: you do great stuff!


Chern, I've got to echo DrEvilmonki: this site is one hell of an accomplishment and you should feel very proud of it. For what it's worth, I wouldn't be debating the appropriatness of this particular piece if I didn't think so highly of CMON myself. It's become quite obvious that my stand in the matter is very different from yours, but there it is.

 

[skraaal]

Hey, men. I told you already that i`m not a psycho, or a perverted maniac. It looks like it`s okay for toy guardsman to rip toy guts of this toy eldar girl with his toy knife, if he meets her on the gameboard or on the book pages, but it`s not okay for him to do what he`s going to do on my diorama? Double standarts indeed. I`m playing this game, i`m reading the codex fluff, i`m watching pictures on this site. And loads of top-rated pictures depicts naked girls and slanesh daemonettes, Blanche`s arts a sickingly cruel and even sexual sometimes, and even codex fluff full of brutality, kills, torture and perverted sex! Yeah, 6edition DElves armybook gives us some clues that Malekith has sexual relations with Morathi (his MOTHER!!!). How could i imagine that somebody will be so upset by my scene? I certanly do NOT feel myself doing something wrong. Wargaming miniatures are NOT FOR KIDS. It`s clearly marked on the box.

And i do not wanted to shock anyone. No offence in my words, no offence in my works. Treat them like a stories that YOU have a chance to finish. Sorry for my english, and don`t think bad about me and my toy stories. Regards.

I think the artist makes some exceptionally valid points here. All of these issues and ideals are already expressed by work put out by the company, and extreme violence and graphic portrayal is already integrated in work readily available from the parent company.

Personally i think the paint job is awesome, and the fact that the piece makes you think about all the horrors or war without going into graphic detail about it in itself, is a superb achievement too.

Sure there are going to be people that do not like this type of work, or fail to appreciate this type of art for what it is, but it's all subjective and the lovely thing about art is that personal interpretation defines what the piece means to you on a very individual level.

I don't think that the artist has done anything wrong with this piece, nor do I feel that the mods here have over stepped any implied boundaries by approving the image.

Ofc, the above is my own personal opinion, whether anyone agrees with me or not is ultimately up to them

Happy painting! <3

 

[Shellshock]

Wonder how many of those who think this is so innovative and sheer brilliance would say the same thing about a child abuse "toy" scene or something, wheres the line, really? Still think it's poor idea and really not necessary, bit like marmite.

 

[Decoy]

quiet and do more steampunk stuff!!
but a simple spoiler type thing that you click on it to open the pic if it's flagged as nsfw. i e much more adult themed stuff like this and some of the kinkier models (ie clunge out)

Here i agree, such spoiler can be usefull because forum can be also browsed by children and pregnant women )))

About "tasteful" - there are lot of movies where rape scene used for expression. For example, Stenley Kubric "Clockwork orange"
I think Nakatn's work is not about rape, rather for war time realism/cruelty in toy soldier universe (which is claimed to be cruel and bloody)

 

[LegionoftheCow]

@DrEvilmonki, They are connected in that people who have an opinion something is "bad", "wrong" or whatever say it should be "banned". Thats the same mentality that has lead to the situations I mention. Because things are "unsafe" or "not good for our children" or whatever other reason comes up.

Adult content indicators makes no difference, you know how eays it is for people to type "Naked girls getting raped" into google and get results far worse and far more real? And did I mention that rape is a sexual fantasy and fetish, isnt that gonna screw people up more than seeing a war scene of the bad kind of rape?

As for Chern, I think its perfectly reasonable to defend the reasons the website allows this. People get easily offended on the internet because they cant hear the tone of voice or intentions of words and cultures and people use words so differently sometimes.

What is too far? Well on the internet, nothing. Type anything in google you will find something you dont want to see or know existed. People go on the internet and have their discussions and IMVU accounts because they can be anonymous and find the stuff they are really curious about without being judged and insulted. They can live fake lives and be in complete fantasy land.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

@DrEvilmonki, They are connected in that people who have an opinion something is "bad", "wrong" or whatever say it should be "banned". Thats the same mentality that has lead to the situations I mention. Because things are "unsafe" or "not good for our children" or whatever other reason comes up.

And so you are not allowed to have an opinion of what should and should not be allowed on anything? You are are simply being to broad in your views. What about seatbelts in cars or restricting alcohol use to minors. It is an asinine argument which is designed to dismiss a point of view without any active thought on your part.

Adult content indicators makes no difference, you know how eays it is for people to type "Naked girls getting raped" into google and get results far worse and far more real? And did I mention that rape is a sexual fantasy and fetish, isnt that gonna screw people up more than seeing a war scene of the bad kind of rape?

I am well aware of the free and easily accessed adult content of the internet. However it is still a weak point for a site not to make the effort. CMON ISNT a porn site and it wouldnt require very much effort on their part to have a section that at least gives you the option to make a decision as to if you want to view certain content on it or not.

As for Chern, I think its perfectly reasonable to defend the reasons the website allows this. People get easily offended on the internet because they cant hear the tone of voice or intentions of words and cultures and people use words so differently sometimes.

Sorry again a weak argument. Chern is perfectly capable of expressing subtle and well thought out points and has done so many times in the past. I have no problem with him defending this site, I have defended it myself on a number of occassions, I do have a problem when someone is getting attacked personally for expressing a viewpoint.

What is too far? Well on the internet, nothing. Type anything in google you will find something you dont want to see or know existed. People go on the internet and have their discussions and IMVU accounts because they can be anonymous and find the stuff they are really curious about without being judged and insulted. They can live fake lives and be in complete fantasy land.

Again a REALLY weak argument. As I said earlier this is CMON, it is a discussion about an internet site it ISNT about the internet as a whole.

 

[Wyrmypops]

I don't find the diorama off putting at all. It's as valid a subject as anything else. Way it's handled, here, seems rather good to me. A range of reactions and intentions in the snap shot of the story are evident. Could be more or different ones, but equally could be a hologram of a pekinese, it ain't, tis what it is and portrays it well. Fits the imagery of the setting, all that darkness and corruption. It isn't puerile, it has an integrity in the setting and way it's handling a rape scene. It's not a commentary on rape or depicting anything other than a snapshot moment in a single story. Good job.

Oddly, I'm contrary to the "nice paintjob, don't like the subject". The mini's look a bit of place to me, a bit bright amongst the terrain. Nice, but that smidgeon off the way a CGI element in a movie jars by not being lit the same way as the real elements.

 

[barticus001]

Nah this diorama isn’t brutal at all. No one is even hurt. Only one Guardsmen might be getting out of line and the Sergeant is shutting him down with a bolter! This reminds me of that painting of a kid spying and watching a lady with her leg up on a chair and stocking half down. I love the reaction of folks who see art like this and object to the depravity that springs from their own mind not the art. Art like this just seems to stress folks that need to come to terms with issues of their own. There is nothing here I wouldn’t let my child see and discuss with given the medium its portrayed in.

 

[Chern Ann]

With the help of Google translate, it's interesting that discussion on non-English forums reveals a significantly different cultural attitude to this piece. This is anecdotal, but over the years I've noticed that strong "anti-sex" / "think of the children" reactions more often than not come from UK/US viewers. I just find it odd that being stabbed/shot to death is considered somehow better than being raped (and alive to talk about it). This is purely my own opinion, but I'm thinking that this type of stigmatization of rape victims as suffering a fate worse than death really isn't very helpful, as if they are some kind of damaged goods. I come from a culture that does have considerable sexual hang ups about this; I think it is far better to treat things as they are, no better or worse, and certainly without hysterics.

As for people with special sensitivities due to either being actually assaulted, or being close to someone who has been assaulted: One poster at warhammer.org.uk raised a good point, which is, where he lives there are many asylum seekers that have been brutally tortured and/or had their loved ones killed, yet there has been no strong reaction on their behalf on the way the Warhammer 40k universe glorifies this (such as burning people on crosses, actual illustrations shown in a sourcebook). Certainly, this may be due to the fact that someone who has everything taken away from them and tortured, and is starting a new life in a foreign country is unlikely to be messing about with this relatively decadent pastime. However, the increased likelihood that a viewer is more likely to be affected in real life by these pieces depicted should not affect the subject matter we exhibit, otherwise it would make us roaring hypocrites. In perfect honesty, this would be "CoolMiniOrNot: US/UK hangups edition". No sex, no nipples, no genitals, plenty of violence. Perhaps someone else can do that, because I certainly won't. We've always been a world site (ranked 10,000 top site in Russia!) and that philosophy has stayed consistent since day one. It would certainly make more commercial sense appealing to the lowest common denominator, but I have some standards.

I'd like to share what I think about a NSFW filter and 40k in general. I do not wish to discourage or encourage people surfing from work; do as you will, and live with the consequences of your actions, you know what you're getting and it says so on the tin. Any potential NSFW implementation will be a convenience feature rather than a child protection one, since it is not our responsibility to babysit children and it cannot possibly be 100% fool proof, e.g. the mass porn upload to youtube pranks by 4chan. I do not think we intentionally give off the impression the site is "Anglo" child friendly in any way. Just look at the front page right now and the competition that is being run. While bare breasts are not particularly taboo anywhere else in the world except the USA, the UK, the Middle East and East Asia, it is likely that the pair of tits on Bonnie Anne will not meet the standards parents from these cultures view as child safe. Please reflect on your own cultural bias in light of world opinion, cultural imperialism is rather rude. I think having considerable common ground with China and Saudi Arabia about what is acceptable viewing should give one pause for thought, certainly.

The fact that GW aims 40k sales at teens does not change the fact that their products intentionally glorify violence, xenophobia, racism, tyranny and fascism. The highly ambiguous morality of the setting is something i would not consider suitable for children without guidance, and pretending that it is simply because GW says so is not a truthful representation of reality. This is not a valid argument since it is simply a variation of the appeal to higher authority. For any kind of consistency, in order to have a child safe environment we would have to ban all 40k products. "CoolMiniOrNot: The child safe/non-hypocritical/no GW edition". GW does roaring trade by letting us live out our secret "insert non-PC ideology here" fantasies in the safety of a far future universe that has little relation to ours, but that doesn't make their products child friendly. A model of an SS officer without context is still considered adult even though there are no nipples, dicks or implied violence of any kind with a guy standing in uniform.

In summary? CoolMiniOrNot will always be for adults. We might make convenience features for adults. Do not let your kids loose on this site unsupervised. We will try to keep the PC bullshit to a minimum.

 

[freakinacage]

touché sir!

 

[DrEvilmonki]

This is anecdotal, but over the years I've noticed that strong "anti-sex" / "think of the children" reactions more often than not come from UK/US viewers. I just find it odd that being stabbed/shot to death is considered somehow better than being raped (and alive to talk about it). This is purely my own opinion, but I'm thinking that this type of stigmatization of rape victims as suffering a fate worse than death really isn't very helpful, as if they are some kind of damaged goods. I come from a culture that does have considerable sexual hang ups about this; I think it is far better to treat things as they are, no better or worse, and certainly without hysterics.

Sorry again this is a discussion about a piece that depicts rape - not sex. If you dont know the difference well thats a worry no matter what culture you are from.

In summary? CoolMiniOrNot will always be for adults. We might make convenience features for adults. Do not let your kids loose on this site unsupervised. We will try to keep the PC bullshit to a minimum.

Again I call you as avoiding the reality that CMON is an open site that does not require an even rudimentary test from people either viewing it or joining it to give proof of age.

 

[Routaporsas]

Wonder how many of those who think this is so innovative and sheer brilliance would say the same thing about a child abuse "toy" scene or something, wheres the line, really? Still think it's poor idea and really not necessary, bit like marmite.

Well if someone would show the actual act of child molesting/rape, then that would be rather disgusting and repulsive. Which reminds me that we don´t see any actual raping or anything in this particular work. No one knows whats gonna happen next. Maybe everybody dies...well perhaps that's more cheerful outcome.

And then again it depends what the artist himself wants to portray/express via his work and how he does it. Shocking others just for the sake of shocking isn't "sheer brilliance" and it becomes rather boring after a while (like some horror movies). And depicting abuse of children just for fun, isn't that fun at all. But I don't actually even know why did you pull out his "child abuse -card". Are you saying that if I for example don't find this particular work So repulsive and distasteful (in a world of 40k that is..well just cruel), I would also like child abuse or something? I find THAT rather offensive. I don't Like raping, and perhaps this work is not just about that. It doesn't glorify the whole thing and it shows that men of imperium can be as bad and low as anyone. And like being said, mayde she just cuts off their wangs if that helps to sleep you better. Cruelty has always been part of our history and also part of facist reign of the Imperium, even if the latter is just imaginery.

By the way. There are many works (music, cinema, paintings etc.) that somehow depict abuse of children. Most often they come from personal experiences of the artists. There are several reasons why somebody would like to portray more brooding sides of this reality and life. Some want to make a statement of somesort and some just want to "tell" about their personal and sometimes brooding experiences. Glorifying such malice is something I don't really like as such, but then again many of us gleefully paint miniatures of say Khorne lord butchering people or mighty conquerors, who have pressed weaker souls under their armoured boots. Are we all (me including) perhaps a bit hypocritical what comes to that? This is too philosophical and where Should we draw that line? Because even though I haven't planned any child abuse scenes..all my works are somewhat violent. Pictures of male and female warriors and some promise of butchering, maiming and war.

But I don't really think that now the floodgates are open and we are going to see more and more repulsive and foul works. Massed ranks of child abusing sceneries etc. Not that likely.