A question from a newbie about paint etiquette

[Pygmalion]

Forgive me if this is an odd question. I used to paint minis, but gave them up for child safety. Now, twenty years later, I'm taking them up again, and there's this whole new culture around them.

The threads I've looked at around here mostly seem to either refer to paints as simple color names, like "blue" or "white," or as proprietary color names like "liche purple" or "turf green."

The thing is, apart from a tabletop gamer I'm a classically-trained professional fine artist, and I'm used to thinking of paints in terms of exact pigment composition (such as "ultramarine blue" or "PY3"), with all of the color and transparency and handling properties that implies.

Is it okay to talk about paints in terms of artists' paints? I don't want to be a jerk about this if it's not the custom, but it seems to me to be a more universal way of referring to colors and techniques.

 

[airhead]

Artist's paints are rarely used in painting minis - as was probably the case 20 years ago.

Back then, Testors & Pactra enamels were the mainstay of mini painting.
Now, we've gotten away from the enamels and most use acrylics in some sort of prebottled brand (GW, P3, Reaper, Vellajo, etc.)
None of those lable their paints like artist's colors, instead you'll find colors like Liche Purple or Snotling Green
There are tables to be found on the internet to compair one line of colors to another if you need exact equivalents (Reaper vs. GW, etc.)
But unless your are painting historical minis, who's to say exactly which purple your litch or snotling should be?
If you are painting historicals, then I recomend Vellajo's model color range where you'll find Panzer Gray, Confederate Gray, Union Blue, etc.

Enion will be along shortly, he's got some artist education and is more familiar with the artist's line of paints than most here.

 

[Pygmalion]

Thanks, that's interesting.

Actually, I used artists' acrylics on minis even back in the 80's. I came from a seriously artistic family and had been using acrylics since I was little, so it made sense to use them on minis when I took them up. I was never much in touch with the mini painting community back then and didn't know what the standards were, but I didn't care for enamels or anything that gave off toxic vapors or needed dangerous solvents.

I also like paints that tell you what's in them. There have been too many horror stories of artisans and crafters developing chronic conditions for me to be entirely comfortable using something that won't tell me its ingredients.

As for historicals, well, the Union soldiers used Prussian blue dye for their uniforms (which weren't all that uniform anyway, historically), so I reckon if I ever paint them I can use Prussian blue paint (PB27). And the Confederates' uniforms were even less uniform, so there's a lot of leeway there. And Panzers (which I freely admit I am no expert on) had a base coat of dark yellow ochre, a standard pigment, but as I understand it their crews also painted them themselves, so that even there there was no uniform color scheme.

But then, I really like mixing my own paints. I can understand an interest in the sort of color consistency that comes from pre-mixed colors.

 

[Savanttheory]

From an etiquette standpoint I don't mind if you use artists' terms, I might learn something along the way, just don't mind when I don't understand what you're getting at the first time you explain it I feel a lot of us have minimal artistic background and can only be enriched by the extra knowledge.

 

[MAXXxxx]

Is it okay to talk about paints in terms of artists' paints? I don't want to be a jerk about this if it's not the custom, but it seems to me to be a more universal way of referring to colors and techniques.

I think it's ok.
But some (maybe most?) of us has no training in arts so we may not understand you.
When you write "ultramarine blue" (for me it's a blue with a slight purple tint) we may have an idea what you mean, but if you use PY3 (googled, it's a lemon yellow, but didn't know)... well no idea by default, have to look up.

The proprietary color names makes understanding easier to those who use the said paint lines.
And because quite a lot were using the citadel colors, their name stuck.
I use them when I try to explain something to a question, because it narrows down which shade I mean. For example most have a problem if I'd say: greenish-grey, but would know exactly what I mean if I said "dead-flesh".

I think the best middleground is using the simple color names. You don't have to learn the paint names from different companies (especially if you won't use them at all) but even we'll understand what you mean.

 

[Wyrmypops]

Painting etiquette. Like the waterpot goes on the outside, and one must never use the craftknife instead of the brush.

I don't see as there'd be a problem. A touch extra explanation occasionally for clarity between the mini-paint users to the artist paints user and vice versa. That's no bad thing. Could impart some related info' by happy accident.

So many mini-paint ranges these days, and with the default naming convention (GW) having changed recently it's probably best we get used to described the paints in terms of blue-grey, ruddy-brown, muted yellow etc.

 

[RuneBrush]

I think there is really only huge confusion when the branded name of a paint conflicts with its descriptive name. Ultramarine Blue is a good example of this as there was a Citadel paint with this name. I tend to prefix branded paint names with initials - so would refer to GW Ultramarine Blue - if there may be any confusion.

Largely I think most people are happy with however is easiest to explain for you, providing you don't mind if we ask for clarification if we don't know

 

[KruleBear]

I think most of the comments hit it in the head--use what you are comfortable with. If there are misunderstandings people will ask for clarification.

My first couple decades i used ( and still do to some extent) Liquitex artist acylics as they were the only thing available where i grew up other than barn paint or testors enamels ( which i detest with my slow painting style). I still like the liquitex due to the cost, but have found they are harder to thin to achieve similar color coverage as the paints marketed for minitures. I also feel the metallics for minis are better than the artist equivalents i have tried. I also find in particular that i have better paint mixing control and repeatability using the paints that come in dropper style bottles.

 

[Einion]

I don't come from a Brick Red, Graveyard Earth, Royal Blue etc. background either and these sorts of names can still strike me as twee at times, but to be fair to hobby paints even artists' paint ranges can be sprinkled with proprietary names as well as traditional/Olde Worlde names that usually have precious little to do with what's in the crimped aluminium tube with the plastic cap!

The Colour Index codes and pigment names are the great leveller here, but even this has its limitations due to the variability of so many pigments. Just to use the two mentioned as simple examples, while paints made from PY3 are fairly similar from maker to maker French Ultramarine paints vary over quite a surprising range given they're all dark blues, from lighter-valued "green shade" versions to the violet-blue type that's more standard, all without any numbering variation (as with the phthalos) to give a clue... so we hope the name gives an idea but unfortunately it often doesn't. Least we do know we can expect a dark blue though :victory:

Einion

P.S. Most of my miniatures are painted with some kind of artists' acrylics, including the AFVs.

 

[Kretcher]

Hurray for the science of painting, all along I have thought it was just to slap on some colour and that is it

To be serious, just call the colours that you use, if it is py3 say that and we will all be happy.

/Kretcher

 

[Pygmalion]

Thanks, folks. I really didn't want to be a jerk about this. I wasn't planning to be slinging around terms like PY3 without explanation, just wondering if it was OK to bring them up.

Einion brings up some good points, that even artists' pigments are not necessarily uniform from brand to brand and batch to batch. It's why I like to fiddle with color mixes to adjust them this way and that.

I'll also confess, I was taken aback to see these little jars of pre-mixed paints in games shops going for premium prices, when for the same price one could get reasonably sized tubes of pure pigmented paints and mix a heck of a lot more colors. (For example, I would bet that all pre-mixed blues are based on one of two pigments, either ultramarine blue -- a soft, deep blue with slightly violet tones which naturally dries matte -- or phthalo blue -- a brilliant dark blue with turquoise greenish, almost metallic undertones. Neither of them are expensive.)

I don't plan to preach or anything, but I do like it when people are knowledgeable about the materials they use.

 

[Cocanour]

I think the premixed paints makes it easier to get an entire army to look the same. because if you had to mix everytime you might not get the same colors. I'm not really painting armies right now so for me it does not really matter. It is good to see different ideas and technics so jump in an get your feet wet or at least your brush. hope to see what you are up to.

 

[airhead]

And don't forget oils or even water-thinnable oils (oxymoron?).

Lots of the larger scales (larger minis - another oxymoron)(72 mm and up) use oils as it allows longer blending times. I've experimented with them on some larger minis, but nothing I'm willing to show off.

 

[Einion]

I'll also confess, I was taken aback to see these little jars of pre-mixed paints in games shops going for premium prices, when for the same price one could get reasonably sized tubes of pure pigmented paints and mix a heck of a lot more colors.

You should see some of the attempts at unit price comparisons, quite the shock when you figure out just how much cheaper artists' acrylics can be. Slightly different story with oils, since high-end brands can be so very expensive and the tubes are much smaller; but on the other hand the paint goes a looong way.

(For example, I would bet that all pre-mixed blues are based on one of two pigments, either ultramarine blue -- a soft, deep blue with slightly violet tones which naturally dries matte -- or phthalo blue -- a brilliant dark blue with turquoise greenish, almost metallic undertones. Neither of them are expensive.)

Yep, nearly all are based on one of these. But surprisingly Vallejo for example do use both PB28 and PB36, as well as PY35, PO20 & PR108 and both types of phthalo green.

Einion

 

[Pygmalion]

You should see some of the attempts at unit price comparisons, quite the shock when you figure out just how much cheaper artists' acrylics can be. Slightly different story with oils, since high-end brands can be so very expensive and the tubes are much smaller; but on the other hand the paint goes a looong way.


Yep, nearly all are based on one of these. But surprisingly Vallejo for example do use both PB28 and PB36, as well as PY35, PO20 & PR108 and both types of phthalo green.

Einion

No kidding? PB28 and PB36? I know them more commonly as cobalt blue and cerulean blue (cobalt-tin blue). They're gorgeous colors, but really toxic. I would have thought most companies would avoid them by now. It's why there are so many cobalt and cerulean "hues" (made from ultramarine or phthalo blues) in artists' paints.

The other three, aka cadmium yellow medium, cadmium orange, and cadmium red, are also highly toxic, but difficult to replace. They have an intensity of hue and an opacity that few other pigments have.

Me, I substituted Mars red, orange, and yellow for the cadmiums a long time ago. They are iron oxide-based, as non-toxic as possible, and nearly as opaque as the cadmiums. Their colors are not as bright, but on the whole that hasn't been a problem. If I need a really bright red or yellow, I glaze over the Mars colors with a quinacridone red or gold.

 

[Shawn R. L.]

I too use 'artist' paints for the simple reason that that's what I had on hand when I started painting mini's. I find the gaming names to be confusing.

 

[Einion]

No kidding? PB28 and PB36? I know them more commonly as cobalt blue and cerulean blue (cobalt-tin blue). They're gorgeous colors, but really toxic. I would have thought most companies would avoid them by now. It's why there are so many cobalt and cerulean "hues" (made from ultramarine or phthalo blues) in artists' paints.

Their perceived toxicity is one reason for the hues of these two paints, but the main reason is probably cost (esp. in oil paint, where they can be responsible for some major sticker shock).

In common with the cads though they're not actually that toxic for the end user.

Einion

 

[Jhigga15]

I know this is a bit off base, but as any one tried painting with GOLDEN paints and if so haw did they work? They have some nice paints...

 

[Pygmalion]

I know this is a bit off base, but as any one tried painting with GOLDEN paints and if so haw did they work? They have some nice paints...

Golden makes top-quality artists' acrylic paints. Their quality is excellent, and their customer service is friendly. They have made mediums to order and have a broad range for just about every acrylic application. They have ranges especially formulated for airbrushes, as well as good, thick paints in jars and tubes.

I have used them professionally for about twenty years. I've painted panel art for book covers, leather garments, and a giant fiberglass statue for public civic exhibition. They hold up very well outdoors in tough summer weather.

The only thing I haven't done with them is paint miniatures, as I am only just coming back to minis after a long hiatus. But I plan to very soon, and I have good reason to think they will work well.

 

[Einion]

I know this is a bit off base, but as any one tried painting with GOLDEN paints and if so haw did they work? They have some nice paints...

If you're asking about the regular heavy-body paints then I have a few which I use occasionally.

They're quality artists' acrylics and they work about as well as any good paints in this class, which is to say they have some specific issues* and some colours are better suited to this kind of work than others**.

Are you asking because you already have some and you're curious if they'd work for mini painting too, or are you considering buying specifically for this? If it's the latter then I would recommend you try something else.

Einion

*They're much thicker than hobby paints, so you have to dilute heavily every time you mix; you'd probably want to change your mixing methodology to make this practical. Plus of course the obvious thing that there are no hobby-type premixed colours to fall back on, so you pretty much have to mix everything.

**Huge range in opacities from very high all the way to a few that are ultra-transparent, and lots of things in between. The Golden paints are also one of the ranges of artists' acrylics that feature a very large range in surface finish, from very matt all the way to quite glossy.