BloodFather's Axis of Chaos

[Zab]

This one is 2d but I love how clearly the example is laid out...

It's one of my staples for chrome NMM (which i am still way to chicken to try)

 

[chaos spawn]

I think what you are describing is SENMM done on gold. Or maybe I am misunderstanding how you mean.

Well, yes if you want it to look like chrome that's what you end up with. SENMM is the way to go. Everything else will have a more matte, used look.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Well, yes if you want it to look like chrome that's what you end up with. SENMM is the way to go. Everything else will have a more matte, used look.

On this particular model, I wasn't going for SENMM gold. I'm trying for standard NMM gold. SENMM can really be in any color, and I appreciate it's function, but in this case, I am trying to master the basic stuff. You really don't see SENMM gold very much.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

I painted over the shoulder pad areas. Just testing out some techniques. I don't like it but please tell me what ai should do. I haven't cleaned up the edges or anything so it looks sloppy in that regard. I am admittedly going for the "old gold" look, but IDK if this is pulling it off or not.

Recipe:
XV 88 base
1:1 XV88:Rhinox hide in recesses
Rhinox hide in deepest parts

1:1 XV88:VMC Ivory highlight
1:2 XV88: VMC Ivory
VMC Ivory in very few high points

-A couple things of note. Since I am painting over old layers, of course its going to look a bit over painted. Will have to spot strip it.
-Not sure how I feel about the brown with more and more white with yellow glaze. It may work but on these gold trims it's hard to tellmif
the gradations work.
-I feel like it looks like I simply painted Rhinox hide in the middle and then edge HLed with light yellow. I sort of lost sight of the surface area I was HLing and shading. Meaning I feel like I didn't get subsequently smaller in area as I went darker or lighter, killing a smooth blend. So Inoften went back and forth, darkening or lightening. Whenever I do this back and forth I know I have messed up.
-Ten Ball, if you read this, I kind of tried to make this look like a red and gold marine on your blog. One that was from third edition that you stripped and then painted. I know it's not the same but it gave me a template to work from.
-Please tells how the photos work on your screen. I got a resizing app and Iade it as small as possible, so I'm hoping I can always post directly to the page.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Just for comparison sake. I think the images will appear from top to bottom, if not it'll be from left to right.

IMAGE 1: My NMM before criticisms obligated me to fix it.

IMAGE 2: Carlos B's NMM, or the gold
i am imitating

IMAGE 3: My NMM "fixed."

Thoughts?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

While I think it is fair to say that the above ^^^^ works, as it is a close replica of what I wanted, it isn't pleasing enough to the eye for me. So, when in doubt, go with what you know, right? I have successfully done NMM gold with the following recipe before, and I think it may look okay here. From dark to light:

Basecoat doombull brown (formerly dark flesh)
P3 Bloodstone (bestial brown may be an ok replacement)
1:1 Bloodstone:vomit brown (tau light ochre)
Vomit brown
VMC bronzed flesh on edges
VMC bronzed flesh w/ VMC Ivory dots

This will make for a reddish, tarnished gold look that may look great but I didn't want to use it for the sake of applying what I believe are more versatile recipes. Plus clearly I needed the practice. But the above recipe will not disappoint. I have stripped and will post pics in the next few hours.

Thanks again everyone for the loads of advice. Even though the above experiments don't reflect it, I have learned a ton over the last day or two. It's my sincere hope that someone else struggling on their own NMM techniques can read through this and see an evolution, or get some ideas of their own. Please don't forget to check back on my final result with the NMM, and this mini in general.

 

[Digganob]

I see the difference and think you did pretty good. I personally have never tried the NMM but I'm sure it's a big learning curve. Also I like the blues you got going.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Ok. I just wanted to get this uploaded before I sleep for my nightly 2-3 hours. His right pauldron was stripped and painted the above recipe. The other one just lacks it's highlights. Still not happy, but from numerous examples of people that painted this model, the good ones more or less match my guy. I'd fool around with it a bit more but it's time to move on. Please provide some feedback if your checking it out. Tango mike!!

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Those of you familiar with AndyG know that he is a good guy and an even better painter. Particularly, I find his gold NMM sexy. Since this has been the topic of my WIP for the last week, I thought Is pick his brain on how he does what he does. It's a whole convo we had, and I had many follow on questions that he was gracious enough to address, but for now here is his basic NMM gold technique, posted with his permission, of course:

"my my method is quite time consuming but in essence straightforward.
base coat snake bite leather or if your not using gw paints then a suitable tan coloured alternative. Two or three thin coats give a good base without obscuring the details, be sure to thin with a drop of glaze medium.

When the base coat is thoroughly dry give it a wash of very thinned down black paint or ink either will do. When dry thinly glaze back upto the original base coat colour in all but the most recessed shadow regions this will take two or three thin layers so you get that smooth transition between dark and mid tone. Don't rush this as it's probably the most important bit. Then with the light source direction well thought out in your head apply a thin glaze of brightened midtone (tiny bit of white mixed into the base coat that you have) over a smaller area. Keep doing this brightening the mix with a small dab of white putting it over smaller and smaller areas being aware that edges always receive the most light even the ones that are 'underlit'. When you have got to a very small area you should have got to your last highlite which should be about 50:50 white and base coat. Stop! Right glaze some colour in now veeeerrryyy thinned glazes of purple or green into the shadowy regions remember less is more here wait until it's dried before deciding wether or not it needs more take it out in the sunlight have a good look don't be tempted to slap the colours on as if it's to thick you'll ruin all your good work. Then when that's totally dry it's glint time this is what really makes the gold "pop" and fools the eye into believing its metal always very very small tiny dots of white on the centre of the light facing edges and in the centre of your highlited regions. The smaller the dot the greater the contrast and the brighter it appears large dots totally kill the effect!!!
Pic you make a mistake with the dots or even with the small highlites regions rather than repaint take a matchstick nibble the end (not the fire making bit!!) and while it's slightly moist and chewed rub the offending bit and the top layer should come straight of DONT be to harsh or the lot will come off!

also always remember the brightest regions are always closest to the darkest have a look at the gold hilt of my griffin exorcist about halfway along you'll find the brightest highlite placed almost slap bang next to a near black section. Google is your friend here find photos images etc of gold and look how the light reflects of objects similar in shape to what your painting it really helps

hope this helps and I will try to do a SBS on my wip or blog ASAP."

 

[MAXXxxx]

sorry, but that NMM gold doesn't really work.
The colors are about right, but it lacks any transitions and looks mostly darkbrown with a yellowish trim. I think you'd have more success, if the lights were done along the trim (so middle upward facing part is the lightest shade, on the side/under about the darkest. Them with an extremely thin light off-white edge along the whole thing.
One extra thing that can and make it look better are secondary reflections (similar to the chrome tutorial Zab linked, you restart from a light color and shade again.

Altough an *old* painting of mine, you can see what I'm trying to say here: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yGtpB-756_V75CJsb1O309MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
Tried to find a more recend one, but it looks like I'm avoiding the NMM nowdays , anyway the sword here can be considered golden: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7F2NR6p5QHHgwZmFh9gx89MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink (and while others liked it, I think it's far from good)

The funny thing is, that last year I tried to teach golden-NMM to a friend and last month I saw it used on one of her figures. It was way better than anything I've done so far



as for AngyG-s gold: it's about the same as I use, except I don't go black, just a dark red-brown (old scorchedbrown) and when highlighting I use a mix of golden-yellow and white. Glazings with purple is the same though.
Lately I've been using plague-brown (and then to white) to highlight as it gives a color I pretty much like and is easier to use than mixing 2-3-4 colors for me.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Max,

Thanks a bunch for the advice. I can't seem to find the pics you are referring to. Your links take me to your huge gallery, and I can't seem to locate which ones you're talking about.

I am putting my pic of the NMM gold, from the backside angle because it shows more of the gold parts, for comparison against EVERY Khorne exalted hero on CMON. There are a couple 8 scores in here, a few 7s, etc. Some are TMM, but you'll notice most of those same out very flat. Those done in NMM look similar to mine, but I see where I need more grades of shades. I'm sure some look much better than mine, but not as far off as it looks if I do some of the things you suggest. I've done the shield up in this same style and it looks much better, for instance.

So as frustrated as I want to be with myself over what appears to be crappy NMM, better artists than me produced very similar results. Of course, I asked AndyG for advice because I see that it doesn't look right and I'd like to fix it, or make it work. But again, I can't let it disturb me too much as I appear to not too far off. Thank u for helping me see what needs to be done.

 

[Demihuman]

Hmm, none of them are blue and purple. They are almost all red gold and neutral.

I wonder if toning down that purple cloak might make your gold pop more?

The blue is very bright too. You could start painting it like NMM. Blue shows light very well. Maybe a couple of nicely placed highlights on the blue might make it work with the gold more?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Ahh...some color theory to make the gold work for me. I like it, but sorry I am sold on the blue scheme. If you look at the smallest pic. Just to the right of me, that is Carlis Bs "Frozen" version of the same mini, and it is more or less the same blue colors. Ultimately, the blue will become toned down as I free hand the cracks all over its surface just like Carlos. This will cause me to glaze some lighter blue whites all over the surface. And yes, I haven't placed all of my pure whites on the blue yet, I was waiting to see how it all came together before I added them. There are many spots outside of the pic that have beautiful white highlights. Nice perspectives though. Blue actully has orange as a complentary, and purple has yellow, so it should work ok. I thought about making the cape a sea green though because that purple is very vivid.

With the purple cloak and bright blues, it's actually starting to look quite stunning and the gold even look pretty good when taken in as a whole and not blown up on a computer screen. It'll work

 

[Demihuman]

Oh okay! So this is what you are kind of basing your paint job on?

View attachment 27578

His "NMM" almost looks like polished bone or something. I don't see ANY yellow

He does have some nice green worked into his shadows, you can really see it in that back shot

His blue is pretty muted too.

There is definitely some purple!

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Yup, that's the one. I fell in love with it he moment I saw it. Now, yes, my blues are more vibrant and intense. Sort of unintentional, but I certainly like it. Gives it a power armor look. I am pretty sure he applied a Matt varnish at the end tho that may speak to his overall tone. Who knows. His gold is very tarnished. But if you look at the GW box art to this mini, the painter wanted that too. I am sure that's where he and many others got their inspiration. But that is why you see my NMM on his shoulders and are like WTF mate?

 

[MAXXxxx]

edited the links.

but in the mean time there is a mini on the main page that has a pretty good goldNMM trimming, that I wanted to write about: http://www.coolminiornot.com/356677
It's just better to look at this one, as it shows both how I thought about the highlighting + how to do it properly

edit: looks like he has the recipes / methods he used on his+friends blog, you can see them starting here: http://thor-modelling.blogspot.de/2014/04/black-templars-emperors-champion.html
Fair Warning: for some reason Avast always does a warning+terminates the connection because of a virus / malware, so see at own risk.

At least his friends blog seems ok: http://z3r-river-eng.blogspot.de/2012/08/empire-general-step-by-step-part1-horse.html
Here is the gold shown / colors used written.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Blood father I've looked long and hard at the pictures you've put up and to be honest they aren't working as NMM.
Getting NMM to work requires a number of factors to be considered, firstly and you may not like to read this but neatness and accuracy of brush placement are paramount. I'm seeing several overruns where you've taken the base colour onto the Blue.

Next is to do with observation and placement of shadow, reflection and light. One of those "Eureka" moments for me and NMM was seeing a cars name in chrome in bright sunlight and getting how light plays on shapes.

NMM is not just about how paint mixes but about how paint is used as glazes to tone the underlying paint and change it's colour. To help understand look at something metallic, I've used the example of a wedding ring before so I'll use it again. It's a curved surface which to all intents and purposes is one base colour, what we see in the variations is not the gold changing colour as it curves but the changes in light reflection and reflection of the surrounding skin and materials culminating in lighter (and smaller) points where the light is reflected most brightly. This gets referred to as "Flare".
So to go back to painting we have to get the underlying base colour right, then look to placing initial highlight to get to place shadow toning to help give the light reflection a structure. Once the initial structure has a shape we can the build up the highlights to the flare point.
Now for me to get NMM 'right' I use thinned paints with minute gradual introductions of VMC Ivory for yellow based metals and VAC White for Grey/Blue metals, not 1,2,3 steps but sometimes 1-15 stages of colour change.

Since NMM is really about a visual interpretation (an illusion) just like a stage magician it has to be smooth and seamless so that our minds see the representation and interpret it as metal.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Blood father I've looked long and hard at the pictures you've put up and to be honest they aren't working as NMM.
Getting NMM to work requires a number of factors to be considered, firstly and you may not like to read this but neatness and accuracy of brush placement are paramount. I'm seeing several overruns where you've taken the base colour onto the Blue.

Yes, admittedly in my anxiousness to share with the community, I often throw things online without touching them up. Some of this, though, can probably be attributed to amateurism, or not noticing the flaws.

Next is to do with observation and placement of shadow, reflection and light. One of those "Eureka" moments for me and NMM was seeing a cars name in chrome in bright sunlight and getting how light plays on shapes.

NMM is not just about how paint mixes but about how paint is used as glazes to tone the underlying paint and change it's colour. To help understand look at something metallic, I've used the example of a wedding ring before so I'll use it again. It's a curved surface which to all intents and purposes is one base colour, what we see in the variations is not the gold changing colour as it curves but the changes in light reflection and reflection of the surrounding skin and materials culminating in lighter (and smaller) points where the light is reflected most brightly. This gets referred to as "Flare".
So to go back to painting we have to get the underlying base colour right, then look to placing initial highlight to get to place shadow toning to help give the light reflection a structure. Once the initial structure has a shape we can the build up the highlights to the flare point.

I think I understand these concepts. And it sounds like you are saying I'll be most successful if I set down a good base coat, do initial highlights, shade around them, and then do spot highlights? I think that is the intent of your discussion there. One thing I have been struggling with on this mini is a good basecoat. I thought my dark flesh recipe would work, but I think the shading, or at least the way I shaded, completely killed the highlights. Like many people have noted, on both of my examples it simply looks like dark tone light tone. For whatever reason, I can't get the contrast to show up. On my last example above, I think one of the problems was that the transition between dark flesh, bloodstone, and bloodstone mixed with vomit brown was simply NOT showing up as a gradation. It did in places, but far too subtlety. And my highlights, from vomit brown to bronzed flesh to Ivory, well, the transitions were either too abrupt or something-they simply did not manifest.

Now for me to get NMM 'right' I use thinned paints with minute gradual introductions of VMC Ivory for yellow based metals and VAC White for Grey/Blue metals, not 1,2,3 steps but sometimes 1-15 stages of colour change.

Since NMM is really about a visual interpretation (an illusion) just like a stage magician it has to be smooth and seamless so that our minds see the representation and interpret it as metal.

And this must be my issue, overall. Making smoother and in some cases more abrupt transitions. But I think it's worth mentioning that, in most cases, I don't need to completely understand the theory of light. I can simply look at the best example of the particular mini on CMON and mimic this as best as I possibly can. This even works if I look at metallic paint. It'll give me a blueprint. The sad thing is that I get it and have examples where I got decent results. I just can't seem to get it right here, on this particular model. Here are some examples of where I did things right, IMO:

 

[ten ball]

I think your trying to run before you can walk. You have picked a very detailed mini to start a complex and advanced painting technique on. My advice would be to pick a nice simple practice mini, paint a real smooth base coat on, do some real simple shading with some crisp edge highlights.
As dragonsreach pointed out you need some improvement on your brush control & blending .
Aim for a solid gaming standard, maybe a chaos warrior with a few less details, take your time with the prep work. I feel your frustration in the NMM but I would start with TMM, nothing fancy just a few washes of ink for the shading.

You will be surprised on how much you will learn from painting a simple mini with the basics

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Thanks Ten, and everyone for that matter. I truly just need to finish the bugger. I've obsessed over it a bit, but you absolutely right, I'd probably learn more with a crisper, more standard gaming piece like a chaos warrior. The only reason I don't is that I have had an issue with finishing things lately.

I AM impressed by the outpouring of help that has been offered. I've learned a lot and will take it all to heart. Thx