Evolution?

[paintingpauper]

Even if you could prove all that, prove the \'primordial soup\'. Not only is there no proof of the soup, there\'s not even any evidence. There has never been an experiment done where science could reproduce the origin of life from non-life.

While not defending or attacking your point, I just wanted to point you towards this classic experiment. Now it does not create life in a lab, but it does show that the building blocks for the creation of very simple life was possible to the best of our knowledge anyway!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment

 

[Knightwolf]

Great Subject!!!

Yes, great subject but to understand it requires a radical rethink of the Human viewpoint, which I\'m sure will come about sometime in the near future.
What is wrong with both the Creationist and Evolution arguments are simply this: both are theories invisaged by MAN, written down by MAN, and forwarded by MAN. This essentially means they are both fundamentally flawed.
You see, if you put MAN into any equation you create a whole host of problems, but this is down to the viewpoint of the Human Race.
We have got the whole thing wrong, the world we live in is nothing like it actually appears to us! Our perception of things is absolutely rubbish eg. We can only see objects that reflect light, hence we can only actually see 0.05% of the visual spectrum, the rest we are blind to.
Further to this we are probably the most ill adapted creatures on the planet, as well as being the most complicated organism that we know of. The only thing we have above all other animals is a larger brain. If the animal kingdom all lined up for all the olympic events, we wouldn\'t get a single medal for anything!!!
We need to understand that the universe is not a large unorganised mass of objects, but rather a constantly moving set of parameters, within a \"sea\" of energy, 99.5% of which we cannot even see.
The idea of a Creator, or indeed evolving creatures are both non starters, don\'t stand up to scrutiny, and are flawed concepts. Belief in either is honourable but completely irrelevant.
It\'s simple, the whole Universe is in it\'s present condition, at any one time ( nano second ) because it has to be. The parameters determine this, not anything us Humans do. Yes, we can affect things but only in the tiniest of ways, but these effects are continually being countered by other actions elsewhere in the Universe.
The bottom line is; \"free will \" is a myth. We are all products of the same system, simply because we are required by that system at that time, and when we are no longer required we are disposed of by that system. We all live within the system, are governed by the systems laws, and behave according to the system specs ( parameters ).
Animal and plant life will come and go, new forms will take the place of old, some survivors will adapt their behaviours but nothing will ever evolve physically the way Darwin suspected.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by junior elf


@DR:1) How do you know I\'m a youth The way you phrase questions/statements is an indication.

2) I\'m am not saying you can\'t change, just that it makes it harder.
I\'m sorry to have to point this out, but that is a generalisation.
For some people the cognative reasoning that leads them away from religious founded belief is easy, for some there is doubt and much thought while for others there will be a hard clinging to the strictures that they were brought up with.

Saying that religious backgrounds/family enviroment are all the same is as much a genrealisation as stating catholics, protestants, jehova\'s witnesses and mormon\'s are all the same.

3) Sorry, formulated that badly, I meant to say that they don\'t talk about the flaws of religion at school and thus making children think that it is all true.
Education within the UK SHOULD include all forms of Theocratic & Non-Theocratic philosophies yet rarely do schools or authorities bother to step away from the \"orthodoxy\" of the anglican church in non-denominational schools.

 

[Queenoftheunifrogs]

for all we know we could be living in an alien version of a giant ant farm. nobody knows. the theory of evolution is as good a theory as any.

just look at pedigree dogs...thats natural or unnatural selection right there....how does a wolf become a chichuaua...simple...by breeding the smallest with the smallest and then inbreeding them until they get mutations because of the genetic pool shrinking until we are left with pint sized dogs with severe attitude problems and a lot of genetic defects....in my opinion its easy to see how things can change over time if you see how much genetic mutation can affect things....like indian ring necked parekeets...most of them are green.....but some of them are randomly born blue because of random mutations. personally i believe in evolution because to me it makes sense.
my biology teacher didnt though, he was the religious education teacher until he was transfered for trying to convert the kids into being born again christians. he had to teach us evolution and show us the bones of how the horse has evolved from a 5 toed animal into a single toed one...the bones were so obviously evolved. My class asked him so many questions on scientific and religious grounds he actually started crying and had to leave the room.

alternitively we could all be some really advanced A.I in a really big computer God sim game.....will we ever really know?
personally i think the human brain is just too small to comprehend it all and we will probably all destroy ourselves before we ever find out

 

[junior elf]

Originally posted by Knightwolf
Yes, great subject but to understand it requires a radical rethink of the Human viewpoint, which I\'m sure will come about sometime in the near future.
What is wrong with both the Creationist and Evolution arguments are simply this: both are theories invisaged by MAN, written down by MAN, and forwarded by MAN. This essentially means they are both fundamentally flawed.
You see, if you put MAN into any equation you create a whole host of problems, but this is down to the viewpoint of the Human Race.
We have got the whole thing wrong, the world we live in is nothing like it actually appears to us! Our perception of things is absolutely rubbish eg. We can only see objects that reflect light, hence we can only actually see 0.05% of the visual spectrum, the rest we are blind to.
Further to this we are probably the most ill adapted creatures on the planet, as well as being the most complicated organism that we know of. The only thing we have above all other animals is a larger brain. If the animal kingdom all lined up for all the olympic events, we wouldn\'t get a single medal for anything!!!
We need to understand that the universe is not a large unorganised mass of objects, but rather a constantly moving set of parameters, within a \"sea\" of energy, 99.5% of which we cannot even see.
The idea of a Creator, or indeed evolving creatures are both non starters, don\'t stand up to scrutiny, and are flawed concepts. Belief in either is honourable but completely irrelevant.
It\'s simple, the whole Universe is in it\'s present condition, at any one time ( nano second ) because it has to be. The parameters determine this, not anything us Humans do. Yes, we can affect things but only in the tiniest of ways, but these effects are continually being countered by other actions elsewhere in the Universe.
The bottom line is; \"free will \" is a myth. We are all products of the same system, simply because we are required by that system at that time, and when we are no longer required we are disposed of by that system. We all live within the system, are governed by the systems laws, and behave according to the system specs ( parameters ).
Animal and plant life will come and go, new forms will take the place of old, some survivors will adapt their behaviours but nothing will ever evolve physically the way Darwin suspected.

I\'ll have to disagree with you there alex, religion is unsupported and without evidence whilst science works on the basis of evidence + if your theory is right what you and everyone else here have been saying is wrong and thus making your theory wrong as well and so meaning that everyone apart from you have said something interesting and important. (not meant to be taken in a harsh or offensive way).

 

[Knightwolf]

Who\'s Alex??

Hi JE,
I noticed you replied to my post and refered to someone called Alex, not me I\'m Vini. Was your reply directed at my posting.
Please let me know.
Cheers

 

[Theomar Pius]

Originally posted by Wendy

Originally posted by junior elf
1) Some evidences just can not be denied, such as the EVOLUTION OF THE HORSE.

Actually, I believe they\'ve found that two of them lived at the same time. That model is very outdated - it just takes a looooong time to update textbooks.

Don\'t use Wikipedia as a source. It\'s a very bad one.

The way mutation and evolution works is gradual though, and the two species will always live side by side until one of them is out competed and phased out in favor of the more efficient genetic profile.

 

[Dragon Forge Design]

Evolution through some form of god like or alien intervention..thats my story and I\'m sticking with it..

Now excuse me while I go and grow that third arm and hand as I really need one as a sculptor.

 

[Knightwolf]

The way mutation and evolution works is gradual though, and the two species will always live side by side until one of them is out competed and phased out in favor of the more efficient genetic profile.

Hi Theomar,
Not proven I\'m afraid! The idea of genetic mutation is good but has no basis in actual scientific fact. It is indeed right that we can genetically alter other lifeforms but after several generations they automatically return back to their original form as was discovered with fruit flies.
The reality is something more startling and occures as a single leap, not a gradual process as Darwin described.
In fact the discussion is a mute point as we are all playing with only half a deck, as it were. We are looking at a complex crossword without any dicipherable clues and through the eyes of a 3 year old!!! What hope do we have?

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by Knightwolf
Hi Theomar,
Not proven I\'m afraid! The idea of genetic mutation is good but has no basis in actual scientific fact. It is indeed right that we can genetically alter other lifeforms but after several generations they automatically return back to their original form as was discovered with fruit flies.

This is simply not true. Where do your get your information from? Some particular methods of mutation or transgene insertion are not stable (often this is desirable for the experiment in question), but otherwise the organisms/cells do not \"automatically return\" to the wild type.

 

[Prophet]

Originally posted by Knightwolf
Yes, great subject but to understand it requires a radical rethink of the Human viewpoint, which I\'m sure will come about sometime in the near future.
What is wrong with both the Creationist and Evolution arguments are simply this: both are theories invisaged by MAN, written down by MAN, and forwarded by MAN. This essentially means they are both fundamentally flawed.
You see, if you put MAN into any equation you create a whole host of problems, but this is down to the viewpoint of the Human Race.
We have got the whole thing wrong, the world we live in is nothing like it actually appears to us! Our perception of things is absolutely rubbish eg. We can only see objects that reflect light, hence we can only actually see 0.05% of the visual spectrum, the rest we are blind to.
Further to this we are probably the most ill adapted creatures on the planet, as well as being the most complicated organism that we know of. The only thing we have above all other animals is a larger brain. If the animal kingdom all lined up for all the olympic events, we wouldn\'t get a single medal for anything!!!
We need to understand that the universe is not a large unorganised mass of objects, but rather a constantly moving set of parameters, within a \"sea\" of energy, 99.5% of which we cannot even see.
The idea of a Creator, or indeed evolving creatures are both non starters, don\'t stand up to scrutiny, and are flawed concepts. Belief in either is honourable but completely irrelevant.
It\'s simple, the whole Universe is in it\'s present condition, at any one time ( nano second ) because it has to be. The parameters determine this, not anything us Humans do. Yes, we can affect things but only in the tiniest of ways, but these effects are continually being countered by other actions elsewhere in the Universe.
The bottom line is; \"free will \" is a myth. We are all products of the same system, simply because we are required by that system at that time, and when we are no longer required we are disposed of by that system. We all live within the system, are governed by the systems laws, and behave according to the system specs ( parameters ).
Animal and plant life will come and go, new forms will take the place of old, some survivors will adapt their behaviours but nothing will ever evolve physically the way Darwin suspected.

Thanks for that. The thread had been much too lucid up until this point.

 

[treide]

Originally posted by Knightwolf
The idea of genetic mutation is good but has no basis in actual scientific fact.


In fact the discussion is a mute point as we are all playing with only half a deck, as it were. We are looking at a complex crossword without any dicipherable clues and through the eyes of a 3 year old!!! What hope do we have?

There is overwhelming evidence to support mutations in the genome as a cause of change over time in organisms.

As to your second point about the futility of trying to understand \"how the universe works\", I agree we have a long way to go and maybe we will never do more than scratch the surface, but it is still worthwhile to attempt to understand things better, no? Are you speaking from a mathematical background? Your initial post about determinism and free will reminds me of stuff I have read about chaos theory. Interesting stuff, but I don\'t think it implies we shouldn\'t bother trying to understand complex systems.

 

[junior elf]

@ KnightWolf: Sorry KnightWolf, your avatar looks like Alex\'s so I thought you were him

Evolution, I think does not work by mutation but by \"Natural Selection\". By this I mean only the creatures better adapted to there environment will survive. Now you might say that this is mutation but I think it is not. Ex (this really is a simplified version of what actually happens but it does happen in reality) : If you take four men, you send two in the desert and two in the sea. In the desert they will have to be strong so the man with the stronger build will make it through whilst in the sea it is the other way around you will need to be agile so the man with the slimmer body will survive. This is how animals break into branches, making there own paths and creating different species with one being small but fast and the other being big and strong (leopards and lions).

Also, in this thread there is only people left who believe in evolution but in different ways so I would really like to know what religious people have to say about themselves.

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by junior elf


Evolution, I think does not work by mutation but by \"Natural Selection\". By this I mean only the creatures better adapted to there environment will survive. Now you might say that this is mutation but I think it is not. Ex (this really is a simplified version of what actually happens but it does happen in reality) : If you take four men, you send two in the desert and two in the sea. In the desert they will have to be strong so the man with the stronger build will make it through whilst in the sea it is the other way around you will need to be agile so the man with the slimmer body will survive. This is how animals break into branches, making there own paths and creating different species with one being small but fast and the other being big and strong (leopards and lions).

how do these men become different then?

mutation!

 

[junior elf]

No, no, no!!! Not mutation. He doesn\'t become different, he is different from the other man, that\'s why he survives. The way that this works is that because these 2 men (the ones that survived) are different and have each gone there different ways and thus they will create different species very similar but with tiny differences. The only place where there might be mutation is when jumps appear such as the jump between lizards and mammals. But these are few and rare and are not what generally happens because organs change, appear, or disappear.

 

[freakinacage]

yeah but how do they get different? i\'m not saying that they grow up, mutate and then get stronger

 

[Bill]

Exactly. They were different in the first place because they are mutants.

 

[rosac]

Originally posted by uberdark
as i have said before...

the only truth to evolution is that of pokemon.

gotta catch em\' all.

lollollol

yeah, but how bad would it be if things spontaneously evolved when they came in to contact with stones, like in the games...

my friend still cant forgive me when i pissed about on his ds one and threw out \"a bunch of rocks\"



rosac

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by junior elf
No, no, no!!! Not mutation. He doesn\'t become different, he is different from the other man, that\'s why he survives. The way that this works is that because these 2 men (the ones that survived) are different and have each gone there different ways and thus they will create different species very similar but with tiny differences. The only place where there might be mutation is when jumps appear such as the jump between lizards and mammals. But these are few and rare and are not what generally happens because organs change, appear, or disappear.

I don\'t think you understand what a \"mutation\" is. It doesn\'t have to be this:

It\'s just this:

Really, that\'s all it is - a change in DNA sequence. If it\'s in a body cell you get an unusual/dead cell or if you are unlucky.. cancer If it\'s in a sperm/egg cell the mutation can be passed on to the offspring. Not all mutations even do something, some are \"silent\" because of the way the genetic code is structured.

 

[Celthulhu]

Has anyone on this discussion actually read Darwin\'s On the Origin of the Species?

An interesting read.
And if you\'re a masochist like me and read the forward, you will learn more about the life of Darwin as well.