Evolution?

[Prophet]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.
The results of random, chaotic assemblages and the elimination of the second law of thermodynamics can have such amazing results................

Whereas our loving, benevolent Creator comes up with such intelligent designs that truly show how wonderful He is, and how much thought he put into His world:

Toothpick Fish

Tapeworm

Ichneumon Wasp

Nature is death. To cherrypick pretty butterflies and sunsets and pretend that those are evidence of God doesn\'t give Him enough credit. Aren\'t parasites, viruses, piranhas, neurotoxins, great white sharks also proof of the divine? If you want to give God butterflies, you have to give him Brown Recluse Spiders too, and bites like
this.

If you want to give God credit for beautiful lions and zebras, you also have to give Him credit for the ecosystem in which that zebra will be eaten alive by a group of lions while it slowly suffocates.

That does require faith, faith that G*d is a complete d*ck.

It gets even worse if you believe in the Bible literally, because then you have to pretend that all of these creatures were vegetarians in the Garden of Eden, since they all existed before Adam and Eve introduced death by eating the magic fruit from the talking snake, which only leads further down the path of absurdity.


\"If god is god, he is not good. If god is good, he is not god.\"

-Archibald MacLeish

 

[DrEvilmonki]

The Earth is also NOT a closed system - we have a rather large source of constant energy in the form of our sun which makes the entropy question pretty redundent anyway.

 

[AllTerrainMonkey]

That is true, DrEvilMonkie; you have to basically apply anything on earth as increasing the net entropy of the universe. I was just trying to keep things as simplified as possible.

 

[Monkfish44]

I believe in evolution. If evolution is the true choice, that does NOT rule out a greater intelligence, although it probably isn\'t some big guy sat on a cloud.

 

[rocketandroll]

Ooooh goody a highly emotive topic to blunder into!


I\'ve got pretty strong views on this, as I guess most people have.

I for one feel that organised religion, despite it\'s quantifiable bennefits of providing individuals with a feeling of being part of a large group (basic human need) and of community, hope etc, is inherently a very bad thing.

Taking Christianity as an example... I actually find the history of the REALITY of what happened 2000 years ago REALLY exciting and interesting. I for one believe (based on the evidence) that there was a guy called Jesus and that he was almost certainly a very clever man who\'s intent at least was good and who had some really positive ideas about how to improve society. Every time one of these shows about archeological evidence relating the biblical times comes on I\'m there watching it in a flash.

The problem is all the people who have come since then, interpreted and twisted it and changed the detail of the story to suit the political/social needs of the moment thus detracting from the (probably really great and very inspirational) original story.

Others have said all this so much better than I ever could, but the bottom line from my perspective is, I don\'t believe that science has all the answers and I also believe that faith (having belief in something despite there being no verifiable evidence to support it) CAN be a positive force.

Science has on many occasions been proven to be wrong, in 100 years we\'ll look back on some of the widely accepted scientific theories of today and scoff. That said, in the majority of cases it has been proven to be largely right... and it is the evolution of those theories that sets science apart from religion.

My greatest hope of all is that man\'s inherent desire to obtain knowledge will eventually win out and man will evolve beyond the need to explain away the universe around us with tales of magic and gods and the supernatural... and will realise that the reality of it all is FAR more incredible, beautiful, and improbable than any 2000 year old schollar could ever have dreampt up.


The chances of sentient life evolving from single cell organisms on a chunk of rock hurtling around a ball of white hot plasma floating in an infinite void is billions to one against. So, within an infinite amount of time and in an infinite universe odds are it\'ll happen quite a lot... that doesn\'t stop us, as the winners of that billion to one shot, looking around us and going \"Damn, what are the odds of that?!\"


Ben

 

[philologus]

Since I\'ve posted on the 300 other threads on this subject I\'ll weigh in here as well.

Like so much of what I learned in school, Natural History was an utter waste of time. In my varied work experience I have never had a boss or interviewer ask me how I felt about the Triassic, or for that matter, pre-Raphaelite painters, or sociology issues etc. I don\'t believe in Evolution. But if it is proven true without a shadow of doubt; I will conclude that God made it. I choose to believe in 7 days of creation because it\'s more elegant and appeals to me. I make lots of money using math and principles of science daily (in managing a manufacturing facility). The truth or untruth of evolution has absolutely no bearing on my life mentally, spiritually or physically. And it never will. I would wager that most people will never have the opportunity to apply Darwinian theory to daily activities. It is an arguement for people in colleges and those that suck up grant money arguing over what happened a million or more years ago.

As a citizen of the US (I don\'t care how other countries run their show) the way to get Christians in the US to shut up about evolution is to quit confiscating their tax dollars to teach useless information. If people care about Michelangelo or Triceratops they will endeavor to learn all the minutiae. If they don\'t care, they\'ll flush it from the memory banks after school anyway. Teach kids economics, managing money, etc....immediately applicable skills with short-term tangible results.

 

[Prophet]

Originally posted by philologus
Teach kids economics, managing money, etc....immediately applicable skills with short-term tangible results.

You don\'t want that. Then no one would ever vote republican.

 

[rocketandroll]

Originally posted by philologus
Since I\'ve posted on the 300 other threads on this subject I\'ll weigh in here as well.

Like so much of what I learned in school, Natural History was an utter waste of time. In my varied work experience I have never had a boss or interviewer ask me how I felt about the Triassic, or for that matter, pre-Raphaelite painters, or sociology issues etc.

Ooooh, gotta reply to this one

Just because all of these things don\'t appear to affect your day to day life... does that trully mean you believe they are irrelevant and have no value?

Ok, story time....

I met an American guy a few weeks back whilst waiting at Heathrow airport for a flight. He was a really nice guy, had a wife and kids, worked for the military in a non combat support role. He was on his way home from a three month stint in Afghanistan.

We chatted for a good half an hour and I got an insight into his way of life which I think has relevance here.... and which scared the sh*t out of me.

He told me how the military treated him so well... the day he started his tour he was picked up from his house with it\'s white picket fence in a limo, driven to an airport, flown across the wolrd via a number of nameless international airports and was put up in an air-conditioned tent in the middle of some desert in some far off land. He told me about the \'street\' built in their camp with the Burger King and the Pizza Hut on it and only after half an hour did I find out that he thought he was now in London Canada. He told me about his buddy who lived in London who fished all the time because the place was so dead and there was nothing else to do there...

He had been kept in a sterilised American bubble from the moment he left to the moment he stepped back onto his front lawn... and the scary thing was... that was exactly how he wanted it. He didn\'t want to know anything outside his tiny, narrow existance. It wasn\'t important to him.


How any human being can go through life, happy to get up each day, go to work, pay their tax, go home, and die at the end of it without ever wanting to know more, without ever having that need to understand their place in it all is utterly shocking and quite beyond my comprehension.


The evolution of life on this planet, the intricacies of the workings of the cosmos, the structure of matter, no, these things don\'t affect which brand of cola you\'re gonna choose at the supermarket... but they are still the most important things any of us can know because without it we are nothing but animals.

If we all felt that these things were \'irrelevant to everyday life\' and that we shouldn\'t waste time and money on teaching them to our kids.... we\'d all be sitting in caves throwing our own sh*t at each other rather than sitting in front of liquid crystal monitors a few thousand miles apart arguing this point over a world-wide computer network.

Thank god it\'s a minority view... no hang on... ;-)


Ben

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by rocketandroll
How any human being can go through life, happy to get up each day, go to work, pay their tax, go home, and die at the end of it without ever wanting to know more, without ever having that need to understand their place in it all is utterly shocking and quite beyond my comprehension.

If we all felt that these things were \'irrelevant to everyday life\' and that we shouldn\'t waste time and money on teaching them to our kids.... we\'d all be sitting in caves throwing our own sh*t at each other rather than sitting in front of liquid crystal monitors a few thousand miles apart arguing this point over a world-wide computer network.

Ben

Exactly.

 

[Dedwrekka]

Ah, philosophy, which is entirely subjective based on who you talk to, who\'s speaking, tone, inflection, charisma, and direction.

Originally posted by rocketandroll

Originally posted by philologus
Since I\'ve posted on the 300 other threads on this subject I\'ll weigh in here as well.

Like so much of what I learned in school, Natural History was an utter waste of time. In my varied work experience I have never had a boss or interviewer ask me how I felt about the Triassic, or for that matter, pre-Raphaelite painters, or sociology issues etc.

Ooooh, gotta reply to this one

Just because all of these things don\'t appear to affect your day to day life... does that trully mean you believe they are irrelevant and have no value?

Ok, story time....

I met an American guy a few weeks back whilst waiting at Heathrow airport for a flight. He was a really nice guy, had a wife and kids, worked for the military in a non combat support role. He was on his way home from a three month stint in Afghanistan.

We chatted for a good half an hour and I got an insight into his way of life which I think has relevance here.... and which scared the sh*t out of me.

He told me how the military treated him so well... the day he started his tour he was picked up from his house with it\'s white picket fence in a limo, driven to an airport, flown across the wolrd via a number of nameless international airports and was put up in an air-conditioned tent in the middle of some desert in some far off land. He told me about the \'street\' built in their camp with the Burger King and the Pizza Hut on it and only after half an hour did I find out that he thought he was now in London Canada. He told me about his buddy who lived in London who fished all the time because the place was so dead and there was nothing else to do there...

He had been kept in a sterilised American bubble from the moment he left to the moment he stepped back onto his front lawn... and the scary thing was... that was exactly how he wanted it. He didn\'t want to know anything outside his tiny, narrow existance. It wasn\'t important to him.


How any human being can go through life, happy to get up each day, go to work, pay their tax, go home, and die at the end of it without ever wanting to know more, without ever having that need to understand their place in it all is utterly shocking and quite beyond my comprehension.


The evolution of life on this planet, the intricacies of the workings of the cosmos, the structure of matter, no, these things don\'t affect which brand of cola you\'re gonna choose at the supermarket... but they are still the most important things any of us can know because without it we are nothing but animals.

If we all felt that these things were \'irrelevant to everyday life\' and that we shouldn\'t waste time and money on teaching them to our kids.... we\'d all be sitting in caves throwing our own sh*t at each other rather than sitting in front of liquid crystal monitors a few thousand miles apart arguing this point over a world-wide computer network.

Thank god it\'s a minority view... no hang on... ;-)


Ben

It\'s difficult, but I take a small amount of offense from you poking at someone else\'s philosophy on how they live their life.

It\'s easy to poke at the bubble from outside, but when you\'re on the inside, it\'s an entirely different subject trying to poke at something that has a very real chance of collapsing on you.

Speaking as one of those that you\'re talking about (both the military, non-combat support role personnel who would prefer comfort, and one who is comfortable within his bubble) I can tell you that it\'s entirely different view from within. I\'ve tried stepping outside my bubble and viewing the world, but the world doesn\'t always acknowledge that you\'ve left.

From within the bubble of our life and lifestyle you only get a magnified view of the world outside, and details get distorted. So, for instance, while you may not view the soldier as being exactly \"worldly\", you only get the one view of him.

From a personal vantage point, which is the only true vantage point any philosophy should be viewed from, I get the view of a lot of hate, misunderstanding, conjecture, and misinformation filtering through the bubble from the outside directed at me either in general or in the specific.

It\'s easy to retreat inside the bubble of familiarity when one wants to, but don\'t be overly critical when it happens.

-------------------------------------------------
Now, evolution is a method by which some people will believe that humanity was created. I point out that it doesn\'t matter what the individual, or even the group, believes on the subject. There\'s no point in trying to force it on anyone else. However, as the subject inevitably comes to the conclusion of education on the subject matter it\'s simply a matter of classification. Religion is separate from science, even though the beliefs of the individual or group might cross the two. If someone doesn\'t want to learn about alternative beliefs, or respect them, then they don\'t have to (and I have yet to see an education system that will force the subject).

 

[rocketandroll]

Originally posted by Dedwrekka
Ah, philosophy, which is entirely subjective based on who you talk to, who\'s speaking, tone, inflection, charisma, and direction.


<snip lots>

Thankyou for such a very, very well thought out rebuttal of my broad generalisation about Americans. I didn\'t mean to tar all Americans (or even all those involved in the military) with the same brush, I know a good few through one of my other hobbies who are very worldly wise, culturally and scientifically literate and have a strong interest in all of the subject matter previously indicated as being \'irrelevant to everyday life\'

I was using that story as an example of an APPARENT mindset which was being demonstrated by the statements about \'higher questions\' not being relevant as a subject to be taught in schools.

And you are of course absolutely right about both Evolution and Creationism simply being what people are taught.

Just as a Christian family can bring up their child teaching them that the Genesis story is 100% fact, an aetheist family can bring up their child believing that the scientific view of evolution is true. The key element is that theoretically (from the child\'s perspective) either could be a load of nonsense that a bunch of people have come up with because it suits their needs. Our only hope is that both those children will grow up with inquisitive minds and will question what they\'ve been taught and draw their own conclusions.

Personally, I used to collect fossils, I\'ve seen proof of evolution which I\'ve dug out of the ground with my own hands... I\'ve tested most of Newton\'s theories as well in one way or another I can personally go out and verify the majority of what I was taught in school as being scientific fact. I can\'t however see any evidence for higher inteligence having had anything to do with it. That\'s my conclusion I\'ve come to based on the evidence I\'ve seen and sought out myself as an inquisitive human being.

When we should all start being really scared is when kids are taught to just go about their lives, eat, drink, breathe, procreate, then die... without ever questioning where they are, why they are or how it all happened.... because someone\'s already answered that for them.


Ben

PS: On which day did God create greenstuff?

 

[green stuff]

Message original : rocketandroll
PS: On which day did God create greenstuff?

I don\'t know if God had anything to do with it, but March 3rd 1977 would be my answer .

 

[rocketandroll]

Originally posted by green stuff

Message original : rocketandroll
PS: On which day did God create greenstuff?

I don\'t know if God had anything to do with it, but March 3rd 1977 would be my answer .

The moment I saw you\'d replied to this thread I just KNEW that was coming


Ben

 

[green stuff]

I usually don\'t reply to jokes that can be made on \"green stuff\", but that was just too good to pass .

 

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach

Originally posted by rocketandroll
How any human being can go through life, happy to get up each day, go to work, pay their tax, go home, and die at the end of it without ever wanting to know more, without ever having that need to understand their place in it all is utterly shocking and quite beyond my comprehension.

If we all felt that these things were \'irrelevant to everyday life\' and that we shouldn\'t waste time and money on teaching them to our kids.... we\'d all be sitting in caves throwing our own sh*t at each other rather than sitting in front of liquid crystal monitors a few thousand miles apart arguing this point over a world-wide computer network.

Ben

Exactly.

i agree, i love learning all sorts of random shit. curiosity will kill this cat before old age does!!

 

[rocketandroll]

Originally posted by freakinacage
i agree, i love learning all sorts of random shit. curiosity will kill this cat before old age does!!

There\'s an old saying in the pyrotechnics industry.... if you meet a pyrotechnitian who has been in the job for five years or more and still has all their fingers, then they\'re safe.

Other than almost setting fire to a colleagues trousers earlier this year, I\'ve so far managed to go about eight years of \'learning\' with no damage

I do tend to prefer to explore the more extreme end of the scientific spectrum I guess.



Ben

 

[freakinacage]

it\'s the best end!

 

[Monkfish44]

I\'m with rocketandroll, I don\'t understand how anybody can just accept what they\'re told without testing it, or questioning it.

 

[rocketandroll]

Originally posted by Monkfish44
I\'m with rocketandroll, I don\'t understand how anybody can just accept what they\'re told without testing it, or questioning it.

In that case you can come join my new cult. We worship fire and acrylic paints and believe that God is a disgruntled ex-GW sculptor who happened to be particularly good at animals and people and got carried away.

No hang-on, that means that GW pre-dates the human race.... that\'s the most frightening thing on this thread so far.

Let me go get my doctrine sorted first than I\'ll get back to you.


Ben

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by rocketandroll

Originally posted by philologus
Since I\'ve posted on the 300 other threads on this subject I\'ll weigh in here as well.

Like so much of what I learned in school, Natural History was an utter waste of time. In my varied work experience I have never had a boss or interviewer ask me how I felt about the Triassic, or for that matter, pre-Raphaelite painters, or sociology issues etc.

Ooooh, gotta reply to this one

Just because all of these things don\'t appear to affect your day to day life... does that trully mean you believe they are irrelevant and have no value?

Edited out boring story


Ben

No, but as I said in the same post: people will either be inclined to learn them or not. If not, they\'ll flush it all out after school anyway. Much of what I learned in HS is completely useless. Out of 4 years of college about 25% is applicable (and I\'m actually working in the same field I went to school for). The first 2 years of college was a repeat of HS.