Gencon painting competition complaints?

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Ritual

New member
@Avelorn
Lots of words there, but I\'m not sure what you are actually SAYING! ;) (you should become a politician... lol ) The point here in this thread is that the GenCon painting competition is one of the biggest in America. Being the biggest it attracts the best painters, naturally. If you should divide the competition in a pro and an amateur competition, only the pro competition would carry that weight. The amateur competition would become a lesser competition with little weight, and there are allready plenty of those at smaller shows, stores, online etc. There are plenty of options for average painters to compete at more comfortable levels, but still, some seem to think that one of the biggest and most prestigious competitions should adjust to the more average painters! Yes, many won\'t have a chance ever to win this competition, but isn\'t that the point with a high-end, prestigious event?
 
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squidders

Active member
I think the main point has been missed... it\'s their competition with their rules and their categories.

You can either enter or walk away and that is the bottom line.

If you come to my home and complain the food is too hot, walk out the door.

It\'s been interesting reading all the \"they should\" comments though.

They can\'t please all the people all the time and the fact that the competition has been growing and the standard increasing does speak volumes.
 
Avelorn

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
Originally posted by Ritual
@Avelorn
Lots of words there, but I\'m not sure what you are actually SAYING! ;) (you should become a politician... lol ) The point here in this thread is that the GenCon painting competition is one of the biggest in America. Being the biggest it attracts the best painters, naturally. If you should divide the competition in a pro and an amateur competition, only the pro competition would carry that weight. The amateur competition would become a lesser competition with little weight, and there are allready plenty of those at smaller shows, stores, online etc. There are plenty of options for average painters to compete at more comfortable levels, but still, some seem to think that one of the biggest and most prestigious competitions should adjust to the more average painters! Yes, many won\'t have a chance ever to win this competition, but isn\'t that the point with a high-end, prestigious event?
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If it\'s long and your not sure what I\'m saying it can be because it started as an agreement with some reservations but it became boring so I just rewrote it. ;) This might not be less boring for you.. but funnier for me! I\'m attacking specific points here..

1. Everybody can become amongst the best in the world, or even in the local games store, from hard work.

2. People which think that there should be more categories so that more people can compete with each other just needs to \"grow up\" and stop whining. If you didn\'t win this year you can do it the next through hard work.

3. There is no problem that people won\'t enter if the same people win over and over again.

4. Competitions will be devalued if they have different categories for different skill-level.

5. Counter argument to myself (or more exactly a nuance). Every competition should not be based around the \"open\" set of rules as some competitive people might be stimulated with gold, silver and bronze placings.

Now for your reply,

Yes exactly. It could be a split competition.. is that a problem? It could be judged by the open rules (which is a split competition) which you are familliar with, is that a problem? It would have the same effect I\'m looking for. I\'m not seeing black and white here I\'m just taking people who have a problem with it seriously isntead of slagging them off. ;)

I don\'t think a pro and amateur separation is what most people are looking for really. They just say \"pro\" and mean different skill levels. Like \"master\" \"intermediary\" and \"beginner\". What they feel is that these large copetitions are no longer \"for them\" but for \"the others\". Which I think is a problem. The solution in this thread seem to be to try to change people by making them \"grow up\" without even considering that they might have a point somewhere.

In which way would it adapt? Would you say that the football leagues adapt by using different divisions (which would be the case here)? Or should the lesser players \"grow up\" because they can\'t play in the \"best division\".

The point in this thread has not been to point out the obvius as you\'ve just done but to express the dissatisfaction of people with a different opinion. Do you think World Expo is less prestigous because you can compete in different levels?

And a final thing, many people might not be able to compete in other competitions then the large ones, esp. in such a place like US.
 
Avelorn

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
sorry for double post

Originally posted by squidders
I think the main point has been missed... it\'s their competition with their rules and their categories.

You can either enter or walk away and that is the bottom line.
Click to expand...

And you shouldn\'t have opinions about it to try to change it for the better? I much rather to see it become \"our\" competition as a celebration of our hobby. :)

And quite frankly whining/ranting is on the top10 of funniest things to do.
 
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squidders

Active member
I actually think that they should run it how they want to and let the number of entrants do the speaking.

The problem is that we are all individuals... while that\'s a great thing in a lot of ways, we\'re never going to decide on what\'s \"perfect\" regarding the format of competitions.

If someone wants a competition their way, why not create one? Be the important person with influence over the running of a competition.

And yes, I enjoy a good rant - who doesn\'t??? lol
 
H

Hinton

New member
Wait a sec...are people actually siding with those complaining about the level of competition at GenCon? Are they actually suggesting that there shouldn\'t be any serious competition in a major painting contest that draws entrants from around the world?

Just because a handful of people feel slighted because their skill isn\'t quite good enough yet, we should coddle them?

Grow the f*&^ up!

If you want to be the best, if you want to seriously compete, if you want to play against - and beat - the big boys and girls, then you damn well better start working at it. I am so fricking tired of seeing people pissing and moaning because \"it\'s not fair\" or \"it\'s to hard to beat them\". If you don\'t like it, then don\'t fricking enter! Stick with the painting contests at the local hobby store.

I agree with having a division for those that are 14 and under or something like that. I agree with having different categories (Single Figure, Large Figure, etc). Other than that, it\'s a free-for-all.

Sure, there are going to be painters who win a lot. Why? Because they spend a lot of their time painting! They practice, they push themselves to be better. If you can\'t be bothered to do that, then don\'t enter.
 
breadhead

breadhead

New member
You do raise some interesting points Avelorn.

A division system could work I guess, Beginner, Intermediate and Masters categories. With it being up to the individual to decide which category they enter in.

Sure you may get better painters entering lower categories just to win a trophy and you may get people punching above their weight in categories they \"shouldn\'t\" be in but that\'s down to the individual.

I guess once you have placed in one division you are not eligible to enter it anymore.

Gencon looks like a pretty huge event so it could work in it\'s favour to have a painting competition that feasibly everyone that attends would want to enter (sure the judges would love it :eek:)

When I first started reading this thread I totally agreed that people know what they are entering into and shouldn\'t be moaning about losing to these top tier painters, but now i\'m not so sure.

I do understand the whole argument that there are other smaller contests with less stiff competition to enter and \"build up to\" these big competitions but if this whole hobby is about having fun then surely people are justified in wanting to enter a painting competition at a huge event and not feel like they are just making up the numbers.

I don\'t see it as a matter of everyone should win a prize mentality because on the whole you are talking about sensible adults here. Maybe it\'s just that the hobby has grown to such an extent now that the format of events like this need to adapt to reflect that?
 
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squidders

Active member
So painters should have belts like Karate and Judo... that would rock!

I am a yellow belt painter - do not fear me :D
 
R

Ritual

New member
@Avelorn
First of all, I never told people to grow up, and I have tried to take these complaints seriously, allthough I have the opinion that a competition like the one at GenCon should remain what it is.

Of course you can have different levels in the competition, I\'ve said as much! I have only anticipated a few of the complaints people would have then. Also, I think a multi-level competition lends itself better to the open system, frankly, as it would be difficult for some people to decide which level to enter. Should they risk being without an award in a higher level (there are only 3 to compete over) or should they \"play safe\" and enter a lower level where they will be top of the field? Of course this is an option, but, as Angela pointed out, the current competition has many smaller awards that the more average painters can aim for, manufacturers awards and such. This is often overlooked, but is in fact something lots of people who don\'t have any hopes of winning the big awards use to motivate themselves.

What I like to see, however, are more big competitions in the fantasy/sci-fi field using the open system as I think this is a good counterpoint to the more competitive competitions like GD and the one at GenCon. The open system, being less competitive to its nature, is IMO better suited for those who feel they will never have the chance to win a big competition. Here they can compete against themselves and strive to do better than last year. Here you can aim to improve your silver in \"beginners\" to maybe gold or bronze in \"confirmed\". You have something to gauge your improvements with, whereas in a competitive competition you only have the \"first cut\" (or the three awards, should you be at that level) to go by.

Maybe the answer to this \"problem\" isn\'t to change the current competition, but start an alternative competition also held at GenCon? I understand the point about some people who go to GenCon for many reasons feel the show doesn\'t have a competition for them. I am, however, against the idea to change the current competition seeing as it has become a successful prestigious event that is independent from any manufacturer.

And yes, I agree that whining, or rather pointless, but to-the-point arguing, like what we\'re currently doing here is a lot of fun! Especially when you do it at work! lol
 
R

Rodnik

New member
A division system could work I guess, Beginner, Intermediate and Masters categories. With it being up to the individual to decide which category they enter in.
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Like you were alluding to---sandbaggers would be a problem.

I guess once you have placed in one division you are not eligible to enter it anymore.
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The problem here is that people will place faster than they improve their skill. So, the lower end competition will see a degradation is the winning skill level---and everyone, over time, will ultimately end up in the \"masters\" category....and you\'re right back where you started.


I do understand the whole argument that there are other smaller contests with less stiff competition to enter and \"build up to\" these big competitions but if this whole hobby is about having fun then surely people are justified in wanting to enter a painting competition at a huge event and not feel like they are just making up the numbers.
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Yes, the hobby is about having fun----
But competitions are built for one thing---to establish a winner. With winners comes losers.
With every \"pro\" competition, you\'ll see a progression of skill level/time invested. Kids start playing sports in grade school---progress through high school/college--and ultimately get chosen for a pro team---provided their skill has improved enough to do this.
The great thing about our hobby is that age isn\'t much of a factor (relative to most sports competitions).
********************************
General thoughts---

Personally, I don\'t take to the excuses of
\"Some people just don\'t have time, are too busy, etc.\".

I have a family, a 60 hour a week job, I own two businesses----
And I\'ve still managed to get to the level I\'m at in less than 4 years. In most competitions I enter, I\'m one step behind the \"big boys\"---that is, I generally produce models that are at least worthy of consideration.
Another year or two invested, and the hope is that I\'ll be competitive with the likes of Marike, Angela, et. al.

The point is....
I like competition....stiff competition. I\'m just as disappointed as other folks when I don\'t win, but like Angela was saying----it\'s a prompt for me to improve. It just means I need to work harder....and I do. From the first time I picked up a brush, I made a commitment to myself to get good at this----but it does take work, and it does take time. If a person isn\'t willing to invest in this, they should reconsider their priorities when considering entry to a world-class competition.

There are competitions that aren\'t world-class----we have tons of local competitions here in Atlanta, both at the GW store and the other hobby stores around town. The competition is weak---and the few times I have entered--I won \"hands down\". I don\'t like this, so I don\'t compete in them anymore, saving those awards for a more appropriate skill level---as competing there, at my current skill level, does nothing to drive me.
 
Ebonbuddha

Ebonbuddha

Active member
Amen generulpoleaxe.

Originally posted by generulpoleaxe
it\'s always easier to blame others and that\'s the problem with todays society.

it\'s a world full of children and not of adults.

i personaly started getting better when i accepted that i wasn\'t that good and had a lot of practice to do.
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Dragon Forge Design

Dragon Forge Design

New member
YAWN!!!!

This discussion has become quite boreing.. as it typically tends to become. But all this discussion of the pros Id like to know this exactly who all were they. Other than Marike Reimer who 2 1st places and a second and Derek Schubert who won a first and Jeremie Bonamant who won a couple 3rds.. our European ringer..all the other awards were won by people Ive never herd of before so I really feel the award distribution was fair.As for them being so called \"pros\" Marike is a college student who does do some freelance painting for companies and people. Derek is a Lanscape Designer who just paints well and well Jeremie is Jeremie..
 
breadhead

breadhead

New member
Rodnik -

I have to say I basically agree with you, maybe i\'m just playing Devil\'s advocate :)

Personally I like the idea that when I enter a GD or something like that I am competing against the top painters in the world. How many other passtimes are there where you can actually compete against the very best in the world?
When I get round to actually entering one I will get my ass handed to me, but at least i\'ll be able to see what I need to work on, and I know that if I ever do get a Daemon i\'ll have earned it :)

The minority of complainers seem to have the loudest voice (true for everything really!).
 
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darthfoley

Active member
Originally posted by Rodnik
Personally, I don\'t take to the excuses of
\"Some people just don\'t have time, are too busy, etc.\".

I have a family, a 60 hour a week job, I own two businesses----
And I\'ve still managed to get to the level I\'m at in less than 4 years. In most competitions I enter, I\'m one step behind the \"big boys\"---that is, I generally produce models that are at least worthy of consideration.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but have you *seen* yourself lately? I\'m not sure it\'s been worth it. ;) lol
 
Silphid

Silphid

New member
It sounds like there are two elements being mixed up. There is competition, and then there is reward.

It sounds like the ones that complain about \"the big pros\" taking all the glory are seeking a reward and not competition, a ceremonial pat on the back for having accomplished great work in it\'s own world, considering you\'re not \"a pro\", etc. I can understand the feeling, and the open system may be great for that. But you can\'t expect entry rules to start adjusting to your specific case and state that \"painters who made model X with less than 3 years of experience, a full time job and between 2-4 kids may enter here (But only if they don\'t lick their paintbrush).\" In the end, everyone who enters feels they\'ve made great work, and they may just have, you just can\'t expect a reward for all, and you can\'t have your source of motivation being a reward.

Competitions are for competition, not reward. There are inherent rewards, but the goal is to see what will be the best model, according to certain judges, that day, and a bunch of subjective factors. To me it is not who wins, it is what wins.

Complaining that the same ones always win shows you just want a reward for your work. Is that so wrong? Perhaps not, but obviously, competitions are not the way to find what you seek, unless you\'re willing/can walk the line, and that means dedicating yourself to that goal.

We see a lot of great models online, and it fools even me into thinking that they must come easy to all those \"pros\", heck there are so many! If the painter didn\'t spend hundred of hours on that very piece (ask yourself if you ever have), you can bet they have put in the effort to bring themselves to where they are now.

Overall top career effort gets rewarded at overall top-level painting competitions.
 
Wren

Wren

Member
I had a goal this year of trying to place in the top three in a category at GenCon. I/life sabotaged the goal a little in that I didn\'t have time to do as many entries as I would have liked, but I put a lot of care and attention into my main entry, from sculpting experiments to trying new painting techniques and pushing myself on weak areas of painting. I took first place in Dark Sword, a popular manufacturer category, so it can\'t have been complete crap, but as soon as I saw some of the stuff it was up against, I knew the dream of a general category placement was not too likely to happen this year. There was some seriously off the charts terrific stuff I was pleased to have had the chance to admire.

I can sort of understand some of the frustration, since some days I figure I\'ll never really have a shot - as much as I improve I always seem to be a year or two behind in development of where the big guns are. But one of the things I really like about GenCon is that it\'s judged by painters. It doesn\'t matter what manufacturer you enter (other than the possibility of the many manufacturer awards available, which not enough people aim for), fluff isn\'t a factor, you can convert and add flash all you want but if it isn\'t something that overall improves the piece it isn\'t going to dazzle the judges into setting your piece higher than something with more painting skill.

I hope to be able to attend an open contest some time, they sound very interesting and fun to both enter and view, but it doesn\'t sound like GenCon will head in that direction. If anyone\'s interested, you can read more about the judging method and why GenCon is the kind of contest it is over at a thread on the GenCon forums
 
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squidders

Active member
I thought I\'d better actually post where I got my initial statement from... I was searching for information on the winning entries when I stumbled upon it. Here is the link - makes for some pretty bad reading and also makes me appreciate that while we don\'t all agree in here, everyone has adopted a positive position on the subject and assumed good intentions throughout from others.

http://community.gencon.com/forums/thread/146031.aspx
 
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Hinton

New member
Thanks for posting that, squidders. There\'s definitely some interesting things in that thread.

What really gets me is that people could have won trophies if they had entered something from some of the manufacturers. I guess there were manufacturer awards that weren\'t even handed out because there weren\'t enough entries. Sad, really.
 
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