Golgotha by Victor Hardy

[supervike]

Originally posted by Prophet

Originally posted by supervike
Feel free to critique the art work, but please refrain from personal attacks.

Thank you.

Read his explanation and tell me you don\'t come to the same conclusion.

Yes, I understand, but I am just trying to do my best to keep the conversation towards the work and not the artist. I may have been a little rash in deleting your statement, for that I apologize.

Yes, Tagron I dropped the ball a bit there. Try as I might I can\'t catch that sort of thing every time.

Discussions and ideas, especially on controversial topics can get heated.

Everyone please keep comments related to opinions and ideas, and NOT directed at posters. Thank you.

@vincegamer....most of that is true.

 

[mrteal]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach

Originally posted by Orb
certainly a very impressive piece of painting; Victors patience and ability is amazing.

However, all art is subjective, and despite the technical quality, I have to admit I find it too busy and over the top for my tastes - there is simply too much freehand on it! Like freehand for freehands sake. It\'s still a 10 though, don\'t get me wrong. But it\'s just my opinion

An opinion I share.

I concur. Awesome but just 2 much, over the top and too busy 4 my taste.

 

[EricJ]

Originally posted by Prophet
This was ol\' Vic\'s explanation from a couple years back:
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/mini-painter/message/91196

yeah, reading that I am disappointed really, from that post seems the goal of the piece was to draw the connections between 40k fluff and christianity. The way I see this is similar if someone writes a Ph.D Disertation on how Aslan from Narnia is Christ character. It\'s too obvious to take so much time to prove/comment on what is already well known.

And even with that connection made, I STILL don\'t see a solid rational for how this belongs in the 40k world. Just because there are obvious connections and parallels, does not mean in any way that there is the same imagery. There is a clearly detailed Emporer background story, and it has no virgin mary parallel, the main banner image, sorry. I\'ve read Victor and others rational, but none of it convinces me that a world eaters demon would know anything about the biblical references depicted.

What would have been far far more interesting, is if the images were based on real 40k imagery, but much more subtile christian connections mixed in. Something like Horus stabbing the emporer in the ribs who has a face similar to a crucified jesus image, for example.

 

[angus147258]

So dark the con of man...

 

[Infidel Castro]

I\'ll go the other way now and say this; he bought the figure, he converted it and he painted it. It was his property and he has no need whatsoever to make the lump of metal entirely in keeping with the 40k universe. Whatever he does to it his business, so the people who keep shouting about it not fitting in with the background of 40k need to step back and realise that to a lot of people such a divergence really doesn\'t matter. I remember one old classic Chaos unit that had a big picture of Marilyn Monroe on their banner and it was superb. it ain\'t in keeping with 40k as such, but as 40k/WH is a parody of humanity, why not twist it back the other way? It\'s not a big step at all.

@ Tagron - you wrote the following:

I think the reason i didnt \"care enough to be offended\" was this; The best lies have a truth in them,
I think if victor had picked out a truth about christ or the christianity then twisted it in a plausible way that made you wonder, that would have been powerfull enough to offend. I think thats why people get fired up over the da vinci code, it mixed reality with fiction which caused people to question things.

Certain things about your approach bother me. You assume immediately that your position is truth, about Christ, Christianity and the Bible. Your picking apart of The Da Vinci Code on the grounds it ain\'t real is one thing, but to then put across Christ as truth (or having truths) is a bloody nuisance. I\'m not denigrating your faith, but I must say that you have to respect the opinion of others who don\'t see things like that as truths.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by tagronI think thats why people get fired up over the da vinci code, it mixed reality with fiction which caused people to question things.

I saw a show about the Davinci Code last night. Seems there is a disclaimer in the book but that the disclaimer is qualified and the author says the stuff about architecture etc. is true. Actually it\'s nearly all total bunk. His \"mixing truth with fiction\" goes along the line of TRUTH: there\'s a group called Opus Dei; FICTION: it is made up of monks. TRUTH: there was a counsel of Bishops in Nice; FICTION: they discussed the divinity of Christ (transcripts of the counsel of nice still exist and they say nothing about it).
He even takes an organization that was founded in 1954 by WWII vets and claims it was founded in the 15th century.
I don\'t give a darn about what he says about Christian theology, especially as he admits it\'s fiction. However, as a trained historian, I find his claiming fiction to be fact morally offensive.

 

[angus147258]

I don\'t wish to offend anyone I am simply expressing my beliefs of religion.

Logically you would think that there is a creator of the universe. Realistically you would understand that we aren\'t the product of a factory.

I have deep scientist beliefs (some that my parents disagree with) and the belief that there is a \"God all mighty\" that controls the entire fate of the universe is completely blasphemous. It\'s not a healthy way to live. If you\'re fixated on god fixing your problems instead of you fixing them you’re self then to tell you the truth you\'re not going to get what you\'re hoping for. I\'m not necesaraly offended by people expressing their beliefs I simply feel bad for them. Why must they be so naive in the ways of the world?

Peoples with their \"Jesus saves\" bumper stickers can go and screw themselves. If Jesus does save he better the hell start saving! Look at what’s going on in the world right now, war, all sorts of tragedy; do you really think any ones going to help us with that? I mean open your eyes people!

I am not an atheist so to speak the only parts of atheism that apply to me is that there is no god. I do however believe that your mind has a certain amount of perceptual power (some stronger than others) that in a sense guides us. Deja Vu is not the product some \"holier than holy\" but a product of the mind! Our mind can make of our world (some DND geeks even think we live in a world of dungeons and cold steel and mighty foes! lol ) just keep on a realistic level. How realistic is it that there is an almighty force that controls us? I\'ve never witnessed a miracle and I doubt I ever will.

My beliefs challenge Christianity at a whole. I do not believe that Jesus died on the cross at all. I (and as evidence suggests) believe he was given a sedative on the cross that caused him to pass into a trance he wouldn\'t feel any pain. Later he awoke from his trance and climbed out of his tomb and lived with his son in India and became a Buddhist.

I do have evidence that he didn\'t die on the cross for instance, in the cloth that he was wrapped in is filled with blood. Only a man whose heart is still beating can poor blood from his wounds.

The whole world is a twisted place and many of the worlds problems (admit it or not) are caused by religion affairs.

So dark the con of man... So dark indeed.

 

[Malfoy]

Angus,
I think you\'re so unfathomably off topic that I\'m not even sure what day it is anymore....

Dave

 

[Neil H]

I am bored with this now!

Most obvious is that this is just a piece of self publicity.
It was obvious to Victor Hardy that he was creating something contraversal & after it was DQ\'d in the UK he didn\'t bother to amend or rework the piece to make it GD compliant. So it was reentered & it failed to win a major prize.
Some will say that he didn\'t need to amend it, but there are rules in these competitions & it should have been DQ\'d again.

Still an impressive piece of work but as I have previously stated not to my taste!

Neil

 

[vincegamer]

wow. um.
I don\'t know where to begin because what you say utterly flies in the face of fact. I\'ve never heard a bit about Jesus becoming buddist or any drugged trance that would allow him to survive crucifixion - if anything, drugged sleep would hasten the suffocation that crucifixion caused.

There is no logical reason to believe in a creator. All of the logical \"proofs\" (and I\'ve studied them all) start from an assumption - a premise - that is unprovable.

[edit: oh, and if you truly trust science then you should believe the dating that was done that proved the Shroud of Turin was not the burrial cloth of Jesus, but was made around the 14th century. (And IIRC, it’s not even blood.)

 

[angus147258]

What ever... lol


Have you ever read the book Jesus lived in India?

 

[vincegamer]

Not until now, but a quick net scan of reviews shows me it\'s not particularly scholarly.

As an example, he apparently claims that the history is written by people with agendas so you should try to separate the agenda from the detailed fact. He does this to the gospels and other books that support the commonly accepted story - but he takes all books that support his theory as wrote truth, without agenda.

also, anyone who claims \"there is no room for physical matter in the spiritual domain\" (p. 31) had better have some way of proving that.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Aye, fair call, it\'s all gone Pete Tong!

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by EricJ
but none of it convinces me that a world eaters demon would know anything about the biblical references depicted.

Word Bearer, not World Eater.
Read the fluff, the Word Bearers were religious Zealots, I have no doubt that a Word Bearer would have a decent knowledge of Theology.
The Word Bearers, while a little known chapter, is one of the most dangerous of the chaos marine chapters, worshipping all chaos powers equally, twisting all other religions for their purposes.
The Word Bearer\'s are the ones that keep setting up chaos cultists on Imperial planets, they are the only chapter as far as fluff wise that actively worship the chaos gods, the other chapters merely seem to align themseles with them.

 

[Prophet]

Originally posted by vincegamer
Not until now, but a quick net scan of reviews shows me it\'s not particularly scholarly.

As an example, he apparently claims that the history is written by people with agendas so you should try to separate the agenda from the detailed fact. He does this to the gospels and other books that support the commonly accepted story - but he takes all books that support his theory as wrote truth, without agenda.

also, anyone who claims \"there is no room for physical matter in the spiritual domain\" (p. 31) had better have some way of proving that.

There\'s no point in arguing with him. He\'s read a book.

 

[Infidel Castro]

lol

Nice line Prophet lol

 

[EArkham]

Oooookay....

So anyway, back on topic... I showed a non-painting friend the images of Golgotha. This is a fellow whose experience with miniatures is mostly limited to just what I show him. Still, with no experience, there have been many figures he\'s enjoyed looking at (notably, several of EricJ\'s and Alexi_Z\'s especially).

With no understanding (nor caring) of painting techniques or the 40K game world, his response was \"...ain\'t quite sure what\'s what. Neat aspects, just doesn\'t seem to be a cohesive figure.\"

I thought it was very interesting that someone with no painting experience came to the same conclusions many others did here in this thread. Make of it what you will; I just thought it curious enough to share.

Kep

 

[Infidel Castro]

Good call, but another group of painters give it the thumbs up. It\'s one of those funny moments when the panel is split. Still, that\'s what it\'s all about, this life. What a wacky world ???

 

[angus147258]

Sorry if I was off topic. I was trying to say that everything revolves around religion and it\'s not a very good thing.

 

[Prophet]

Originally posted by angus147258
Sorry if I was off topic. I was trying to say that everything revolves around religion and it\'s not a very good thing.

So you\'re comfortable with your use of the word \"if\" here?