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MaestroOfMayhem
Guest
I\'d rather have someone doing a job or in a drug rehab program than sitting in a cell getting \"punished\". Jail isn\'t a good expereince I hear, but people just come out with more problems.
Has anyone else...
- Thread starter Evil Dave
- Start date
DennisMech
New member
Been avoiding this topic...
I don\'t have any problem with sentencing someone to death, what I have a problem with is the court system. Everyone knows these days that whoever pours the most money into their argument usually wins. Whatever the end punishment is, if we can\'t be sure the person deserves that punishment, then we have no right in dealing it. I wish the government would invest more money into it\'s own free lawyer, giving those who aren\'t so wealthy a chance to actually win a case. Also, this would lower the cost of trials, meaning that many criminals would no longer be able to get away with smaller crimes that the victims would not otherwise bother to follow up on, due to prohibitively high costs.
I don\'t have any problem with sentencing someone to death, what I have a problem with is the court system. Everyone knows these days that whoever pours the most money into their argument usually wins. Whatever the end punishment is, if we can\'t be sure the person deserves that punishment, then we have no right in dealing it. I wish the government would invest more money into it\'s own free lawyer, giving those who aren\'t so wealthy a chance to actually win a case. Also, this would lower the cost of trials, meaning that many criminals would no longer be able to get away with smaller crimes that the victims would not otherwise bother to follow up on, due to prohibitively high costs.
The really big problem with death penalties, as I see it, is that if society kills even one innocent person, the death penalty becomes unacceptable. There are a lot of cases around the world where innocent people have been convicted for murder. There are no way of being 100% sure someone is guilty. Even DNA evidence can be wrong. If society kills one innocent man, it\'s IMO no better than any murdering, raping bastard.
Plus, keeping someone on death row for a lot of years, before killing them is just as expensive (if we\'re talking about money) as having them serve jail time.
Plus, keeping someone on death row for a lot of years, before killing them is just as expensive (if we\'re talking about money) as having them serve jail time.
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MaestroOfMayhem
Guest
So if you murder a murdering, raping bastard, are you better than the bastard? Or are you the same.
I think that is unimportant! I think that death penalty is wrong since there is a probability that someone who isn\'t a murdering bastard gets executed (and that has happened more than once). Therefore I can\'t accept death penalty regardless of whether I think it\'s right to kill a murderer or not.
But, to answer your question (as best I can): I would not want to kill anyone. That would not feel right to me. That is the best answer I can give...
@ Gin1906
I can in no way fully understand what you have gone through, and I\'m not trying to disrespect you here, but I don\'t agree with some of what you wrote. And it\'s because of one reason; people are not the same, we are not robots and do not react the same to the same treatment. We are individuals. Just because you managed to handle your situation doesn\'t mean that everyone else are able to do that. That\'s my belief. And I don\'t say that everyone that has a bad childhood becomes a criminal, or that they who do can blame it on that, but I think it is one reason to why they become what they do. You can\'t fix a problem just on the surface. But now to the part I really disagree with:
Death Penalty does NOT lead to less murders being committed. It has no preventional (?) effect at all according to every survey that I have ever heard of.
Ok, I\'m gonna leave this topic now. This is after all a painting forum
And, again Gin, I admire your strength, to be able to handle all you have been put through and still come out alive on the other end, although we disagree on this topic.
/Anja
I can in no way fully understand what you have gone through, and I\'m not trying to disrespect you here, but I don\'t agree with some of what you wrote. And it\'s because of one reason; people are not the same, we are not robots and do not react the same to the same treatment. We are individuals. Just because you managed to handle your situation doesn\'t mean that everyone else are able to do that. That\'s my belief. And I don\'t say that everyone that has a bad childhood becomes a criminal, or that they who do can blame it on that, but I think it is one reason to why they become what they do. You can\'t fix a problem just on the surface. But now to the part I really disagree with:
Death Penalty does NOT lead to less murders being committed. It has no preventional (?) effect at all according to every survey that I have ever heard of.
Ok, I\'m gonna leave this topic now. This is after all a painting forum
And, again Gin, I admire your strength, to be able to handle all you have been put through and still come out alive on the other end, although we disagree on this topic
. /Anja
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U4-Welcome
Guest
@Astonia : Honestly, I don\'t give a rat\'s bottom whether the criminal is a poor uneducated retarded beaten one-legged orphan. Seriously. If he\'s a criminal (and a dangerous one at that), I want him out of my way, I want him out of my loved ones\' way, and I sure as hell don\'t want to give him money for that.
Something that has always baffled me is that being the aforementioned poor uneducated retarded beaten one-legged orphan makes it all better. The public (I should say the mob, really) starts crying over him, how we really should pity him, how he\'s a victim of society, and in the end he walks away with a few weeks of jail time. For crying out loud, what has that got to do with anything ? He killed someone, there\'s a precise penalty for it in the Code of Law, how hard is it to apply it without veering into pseudo-sentimental pathos ?
Something that has always baffled me is that being the aforementioned poor uneducated retarded beaten one-legged orphan makes it all better. The public (I should say the mob, really) starts crying over him, how we really should pity him, how he\'s a victim of society, and in the end he walks away with a few weeks of jail time. For crying out loud, what has that got to do with anything ? He killed someone, there\'s a precise penalty for it in the Code of Law, how hard is it to apply it without veering into pseudo-sentimental pathos ?
FredrickvonCarstein
New member
I think you mis-enterpretted what I said. It takes a number of different causes, including some which are psycholigcal to create a killer.
In he cases of the following famous serial killers all were ridiculed/beaten/molested/put up for adoption by their parents.
David Berkowitz
Ed Gein
John Wayne Gacy
Ed Kemper
Albert Fish
Aileen Wournos
H.H. Holmes
Charles Manson
This is only a small portion among many psychopaths. Also some notable ommisions break this pattern such as Ted Bundy or Dr. Harold Fishmen. However the fact remains that this type of environment can breed killers.
However people such as yourself (I am in awe and admire how far you\'ve come with the hurdles which you have faced in life) who have been subjected to worse childhoods can come through it and become the person that you are because of inner strength and a different mindset. There are many other causes which occur frequently when reviewing the past of serial killers and a bad childhood is just one. Sorry to have given the wrong message as it was not what I had intended.
FredrickvonCarstein
New member
Exactly why I oppose maximum punishment. ending any one person\'s innocent life is not worth ending the life of millions of other psychopaths.
Edit: Despite the fact that this seems the wrong post to do it in, I must give a resounding HUZZAH! as I\'ve finally become a true member.
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t_haye2
Guest
Braveheart, not a problem mate, difference in opinion is cool, but note that there\'s nothing about \'my history\' in there...i\'m Dutch, not British.
It is funny however so many people seem to not be willing to let people repent or learn from their mistakes. So you don\'t want to spend money on the education of prisoners...hmmmm....lack of education is one of the foremost reasons of crime(it being a precursor to lack of employment, meaning lack of money etc etc) which is fine, again, that\'s your opinion, but i guess you are American, and culturally Americans are(I am generalising here, forgive me) much more gung ho about these things.... europeans have a much more reserved way of looking at these things, and as a result, in my opinion, have more sensible laws and ways of dealing with this kind of issue. but I would say that because i\'m European.
the death penalty is something I strongly oppose,due to the fact that for every 1000 \'guilty\' prisoners, it\'s inevitable an innocent man/woman will be put to death. But the again, I also oppose the \'freedom\' to own firearms....accidents waiting to happen. i guess the ol\' US of A is my vision of nightmare land, the place is too big, with too many laws still stuck in the dark ages, wouldn\'t wanna live there for the world. just in case anybody asks...I\'m against the unification of Europe too i\'m against a lot of things today....hmmm, must be my period
It is funny however so many people seem to not be willing to let people repent or learn from their mistakes. So you don\'t want to spend money on the education of prisoners...hmmmm....lack of education is one of the foremost reasons of crime(it being a precursor to lack of employment, meaning lack of money etc etc) which is fine, again, that\'s your opinion, but i guess you are American, and culturally Americans are(I am generalising here, forgive me) much more gung ho about these things.... europeans have a much more reserved way of looking at these things, and as a result, in my opinion, have more sensible laws and ways of dealing with this kind of issue. but I would say that because i\'m European.
the death penalty is something I strongly oppose,due to the fact that for every 1000 \'guilty\' prisoners, it\'s inevitable an innocent man/woman will be put to death. But the again, I also oppose the \'freedom\' to own firearms....accidents waiting to happen. i guess the ol\' US of A is my vision of nightmare land, the place is too big, with too many laws still stuck in the dark ages, wouldn\'t wanna live there for the world. just in case anybody asks...I\'m against the unification of Europe too
i\'m against a lot of things today....hmmm, must be my period Death Penalty is not right. Death Penalty is irreversible - lock someone up for 2 years and you can still say \"sorry\". We don\'t have a Death Penalty in Germany and I am sure that removing the death penalty from your law is a step towards further civilisation. Also, I don\'t think we have a higher percentage of murder than most parts of America.
I would gladly pay to keep someone in prison, if it even was about money. And Gin, I am sure the things you described can make people go insane. I would not always blame it on the childhood, but it can be a factor. Those people don\'t belong into prison though, they belong into a mental asylum, and once again I would be happy to have part of my taxes used for that. We live in a society that cares for ther members and works just because of it. Sick people deserve treatment, full stop. Most of you seem to say \"If someone kills because of a mental defect chop off his head\". But if someone steals because of hunger you wouldn\'t chop off his hand, would you?
Sorry, I would elaborate further, but I just took a look at the time.... my grandparents wait for my assistance
I would gladly pay to keep someone in prison, if it even was about money. And Gin, I am sure the things you described can make people go insane. I would not always blame it on the childhood, but it can be a factor. Those people don\'t belong into prison though, they belong into a mental asylum, and once again I would be happy to have part of my taxes used for that. We live in a society that cares for ther members and works just because of it. Sick people deserve treatment, full stop. Most of you seem to say \"If someone kills because of a mental defect chop off his head\". But if someone steals because of hunger you wouldn\'t chop off his hand, would you?
Sorry, I would elaborate further, but I just took a look at the time.... my grandparents wait for my assistance
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U4-Welcome
Guest
No ! Noooo ! People can get out of mental institutions, and that\'s the last thing we want for this kind of dangerous crazy...
Originally posted by finn17
I ask again. Are you a taxpayer? Because if you aren\'t...if you personally don\'t see a third of your wages disappear every month before you even get hold of them, your argument is not only worthless, but mildly insulting to us taxpayers
I don\'t directly pay taxes, wich means I don\'t have to fill in a check every year that goes of to the governement. But I do have taxes that are taken from my salary. So yes in a way I do pay taxes. And frankly it bothers me more to pay taxes for the military then it does to pay the small amount required per personne for the jails.
darthfoley
Active member
If it *was* actually a small amount, I might agree with you.
Well I\'m not religouse in any way,but I do know a few things. First \"Thou shall not kill\" is one of the ten commendments given to moise by God. You believe in god and respect him, well he just asked you not to kill. Second, the main point of jesus\'s message was a message of peace and forgivenesse. At the last supper he knew that juda has betrayed him, he didn\'t ask anyone to kill juda for that... he forgave him. Now I\'m not saying we should forgive in anyway, but giving killers a lifetime to repent and think about their mistake is in my opinion better then killing them.
Second thing, it would seem I and servral other have talked about the innocent beeing killed. I still haven\'t seen anyone in favor comment on that. How would you feel if you were innocent and about to be killed ? \"Oh well that\'s the price to pay for the death penatly in a few year they will find me innocent and give me a medale\"...I think not !!.
I have absolutly no probleme with you because you have differente point of view, I think arguing is always a good way to fond solution, and I am arguing my point of view peacfully
And thanks for liking my \"works of art\" but I really don\'t think CMON would miss them much if they weren\'t here We need to stop coddling convicted felons
Prisons would not be so expensive if we stopped providing them every nicety that society has to offer. Why should they be given top quality weight lifting equipment? I have to pay for a gym membership if I want to get fit, but these guys have all day access and come out of prison fitter than when they went in.
I say, convicted felons, while in prison have no rights as defined by society. They turned their back on society when they broke th elaw, so they have no rights under the law.
That may be a bit harsh, but it may also deter people on the borderline of choosing a criminal lifestyle.
Jack:flame:
Prisons would not be so expensive if we stopped providing them every nicety that society has to offer. Why should they be given top quality weight lifting equipment? I have to pay for a gym membership if I want to get fit, but these guys have all day access and come out of prison fitter than when they went in.
I say, convicted felons, while in prison have no rights as defined by society. They turned their back on society when they broke th elaw, so they have no rights under the law.
That may be a bit harsh, but it may also deter people on the borderline of choosing a criminal lifestyle.
Jack:flame:Once again, the military serves a purpose and serves our society, death row inmates do not.
I have no problem giving my tax money to the military in order that the boys who are protecting our freedom have the best tools available for the job.
The conditions our military men face and usually live in make most prisons look like a 5 star hotel.
Have you ever seen the living conditions aboard a navy vessel?
I have, I\'ve lived in them. My berthing area had 100 men living in a space that was about 80\'X30\'. Most prisons have 2 man cells. No cable TV for us, and we had only 2 raggedy weight benches onboard, we had to wear uniforms, follow strict rules, no alcohol, work, and the danger of being in combat. Hell, our military men have it worse than prisoners.
You also have to realise that for every soldier in the field it takes about 5 people to support them.
You also have to realise that the US military is the backbone for every UN action that involves military action, not to mention our military protects our neighbors who really don\'t have military branches worth mentioning.
The fact that there are some people who would rather support the people who violate our freedoms, yet cut the budget on the people who protect them, is rather disturbing IMHO.
LordofthePit
New member
I really didn\'t want to get involved in this topic, but I couldn\'t resist... and now that I am:
I agree with a lot of points made here against the death penalty;
however I could be persuaded to be pro-death penalty if it would actually prevent crime. Sure the person executed won\'t commit any crimes anymore, but a lot of studies show that the crime rate in places where they have death penalty is not lower and some even show that it is higher.
So the death penalty doesn\'t work as a punishment, because a lifetime in prison(I think) is much worse than the death penalty(which takes but a few minutes) and it doesn\'t work as a deterrent for other criminals. Now what is the use of a punishment if not one the above reasons?
About the military: as the World Bank president James Wolfensohn said: \"the world spends 900 billion euro\'s a year on weapons and 50 billion on third world development, if we\'d spend 900 billion on development we would probably only need 50 billion for weapons.\"
@t-haye2: I totally agree with your rant(except for the \'period\' thing, I don\'t know about that lol )
well I\'m off again. I hope I didn\'t offend anyone (it\'s a sensitive topic) and if I did, my apologies
[EDIT] Oh wait, I do agree that prisoners don\'t need cable television and should work for the society while in prison.
I agree with a lot of points made here against the death penalty;
however I could be persuaded to be pro-death penalty if it would actually prevent crime. Sure the person executed won\'t commit any crimes anymore, but a lot of studies show that the crime rate in places where they have death penalty is not lower and some even show that it is higher.
So the death penalty doesn\'t work as a punishment, because a lifetime in prison(I think) is much worse than the death penalty(which takes but a few minutes) and it doesn\'t work as a deterrent for other criminals. Now what is the use of a punishment if not one the above reasons?
About the military: as the World Bank president James Wolfensohn said: \"the world spends 900 billion euro\'s a year on weapons and 50 billion on third world development, if we\'d spend 900 billion on development we would probably only need 50 billion for weapons.\"
@t-haye2: I totally agree with your rant(except for the \'period\' thing, I don\'t know about that lol )
well I\'m off again. I hope I didn\'t offend anyone (it\'s a sensitive topic) and if I did, my apologies
[EDIT] Oh wait, I do agree that prisoners don\'t need cable television and should work for the society while in prison.
