Has anyone else...

johnboyjjb

Active member
Originally posted by MaestroOfMayhemGuns and other weapons need to be regulated, people shouldn\'t have guns to protect themselves from other people who have guns.
An armed society is a polite society.
Originally posted by MoschBut if someone steals because of hunger you wouldn\'t chop off his hand, would you?
They used to and it would cut down on theft. You wouldn\'t get caught stealing more than twice.
Originally posted by Frenchkid
And frankly it bothers me more to pay taxes for the military then it does to pay the small amount required per personne for the jails.
I\'d be upset if I had to put money into the French army too!:D
Originally posted by Frenchkid
First \"Thou shall not kill\" is one of the ten commendments given to moise by God.
So is \"Thou shalt not commit adultery\" and how many people listen to that? Also, and eye for an eye is Biblical (Duet 19:21). So is the concept of \"city of refuge\".
Originally posted by Frenchkidjesus\'s message was a message of peace and forgivenesse.
Jesus said Let him who is without sin throw the first stone. But he also said, \"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.\" Mt 10:34. Also the book of Revelation is about running out of chances to change.

Originally posted by MaestroOfMayhem
Jail isn\'t a good expereince I hear, but people just come out with more problems.
People come out with more problems . . . and better training as a criminal. It\'s not unthinkable that all they do is sit around and tell stories of how they got caught and how they won\'t get caught next time. The majority of prisoners in French prisons are of Middle Eastern descent and a fair number of terrorists were trained by knowledgeable parties in the French prison system. People who would reoffend just to get back into prison to keep the network alive.

My solution: Remember the movie NO ESCAPE? All the prisoners got dumped on an island and the rowdy types fought with themselves but also rallied to take down the people who where truly repentant. Criminals don\'t need to BE rehabilitated. They will rehabilitate themselves just to be able to function in human society. Becca mentioned on her trip to prison they had setup a system were everybody reported to a head prisoner who meted out punishments and rewards. How is this different from our society? They don\'t have to work. Am I for capital punishment - no. Our society would not allow it to be efficient enough becuase if it was efficient enough mistakes would occur too frequently. Is our prison system too soft? Yes. If an accountant who was cheating on the books was bunked with a mass murder I think that would be a detterent. Those who commit Murder, not homicide, generally will never be able to be rehabilitated and should therefore not have the effort spent trying. Just put them where they can\'t hurt anybody.

Last 2 points:
1) Anybody anti-death penalty but pro-abortion - I would like to see that calmly debated elsewhere.
2) I am not anti-French. It\'s just seems that way from parts of this post.
 

CromBad

New member
can you compare them?

Originally posted by johnboyjjb
1) Anybody anti-death penalty but pro-abortion - I would like to see that calmly debated elsewhere.

I don\'t think the issue is pro-abortion, rather pro-choice.
How about the MANY people (in the public and in the white house/government) who are pro-death penalty and pro-life?
The two situations are under totally different circumstances, and I don\'t think they can be compared on the same level.
Hence the reason I don\'t try to debate that issue with my more conservative friends who oppose abortion but support the death penalty...
 

johnboyjjb

Active member
Originally posted by CromBad
Originally posted by johnboyjjb
1) Anybody anti-death penalty but pro-abortion - I would like to see that calmly debated elsewhere.

I don\'t think the issue is pro-abortion, rather pro-choice.
How about the MANY people (in the public and in the white house/government) who are pro-death penalty and pro-life?
The two situations are under totally different circumstances, and I don\'t think they can be compared on the same level.
Hence the reason I don\'t try to debate that issue with my more conservative friends who oppose abortion but support the death penalty...
I was very explicit about my choice of words between pro-abortion and pro-choice. I think that if you are stuck thinking about (and believe in God) then God is Pro-Choice - otherwise we wouldn\'t have a choice. Henceforth, I say Pro-choice; Choose life.
The arguements about Pro-Life and Pro death penalty that you bring up by majority are held by people thinking it is Biblical or having been brought up by someone who has a vague reference to this Biblical knowledge. They would be very right if it was strictly Old Testament theology but as Frenchkid stated, and I omitted, New Testament theology clears states that an Eye for Eye is no longer a valid lifestyle for Christians and that forgiveness and compassion are the call to duty. Hence, they would be wrong, Biblically, if we were arguing Biblically, which they would be.
My statment about pro-Abortion and anti-death penalty would not have the Biblical support neccesary to even postulate and I would like to see it rationalized. I also do not think this is the time or thread to do it in.
 

Braveheart712

New member
Consider this...

Frenchkid, you brought up an excellent point in the death penalty arguement, that is what if one innocent person is convicted and executed, then doesn\'t they system fail??? I would agree with you except there is another side, that is how many lives are sacrificed due to keeping convicted felons alive in jail. Ever year there are correction officers that are attacked, injured and sometimes killed by these dangerous animals that many people would like to keep alive for a lifetime of repentenance. Prisons also harbor diseases as well, believe it or not the AIDS virus is rampant in prison since most gang rapes in jail do not take place in \"safe sex\" conditions as well. While I really don\'t care about the transmission of this disease from inmate to inmate, I do care about the healthcare workers and prison staff members who become infected while doing their job, that is being caretakers to these animals. While I will agree that in rare instances innocent people have fallen victim to unfair verdicts and been sentenced to death, it is much more common that innocent lives are ended in prolonging the lives of these killers. Yes, they system is not perfect but nothing is.

You ask how would I feel if I were an innocent person convicted to die about to be killed? Again, this is an excellent question. I would feel cheated and robbed, angry and frustrated, much the way you would expect me to feel. Consider this though, how do you think the murder victims felt in those last moments of their lives, when their lives were being ended? Don\'t you think that in their hearts they were hoping for justice and that society would make sure that no one else ever had to suffer at their killer\'s hands? I am quite sure these would be my thoughts and that I would scream out from my grave to all that were alive that justice be done.

I understand that you and many others are not religious, I can undertsand your confusion that forgivenness offers. Let me start by saying that their is a difference in forgiving and forgetting. Society can forgive you of your transgressions, just the same way that you God may forgive you, but \"I\'m sorry\" does not always make things right and does not erase the fact that the crime was committed. The act of compassion and forgiveness, the abililty to empathizes with the criminal does not negate the necessity of punishment in any way. There is a punishment that comes with any crime. Punishment does not always have to right a wrong to be fair and just, since often the wrong may not be possible to correct through punishment. Punishment also serves two other purposes, one is deterrence to others , and second as a way of preventing the act from being carried out again. People here have said that the death penalty is not a deterrent. The death penalty is a deterrent in that the individual that is given death NEVER will be allowed to commit his or her crime again. Yes, taking the killers \'s life will never restore the victim;s life i agree, but just beacause the punishment cannot correct the original crime, it does not make the punishment invalid since punishment also can serve fulfill the other purposes and still be fair and just. I hope thsi can help you to see the difference between forgiveness and paying the price for your crime. To use your analogy, Jesus forgave Judeus for the betrayal, but he also did nothing to prevent the death of Judeus, even though this act was self inflicted it was penishment for the crime that was committed. Since Jesus had the gift of foresight, don\'t you think he could have stopped Judeus from hanging himself is he wanted to? While this is not the best analogy it still shows the difference between forgiveness and having consequences to your actions.

The question of education and crime also arose. Let me share with you that education and many lesser crimes such as larceny and robbery are linked, since some of the people who commit these crimes do feel that they have limited opportunity, however most murderers have normal or higher education levels, some being at genius level like Ted Bundy. While murder is a crime committed by street thugs and gang banger, it also is a crime committed intelligent and educated predators who stalk the innocents in society as well. Again, we all have opportunities in life too, and everyone in the US has the opportunity to better themselves through education, though this opportunity is not the equally the same everywhere, it exists in some form clear across our land. Bill Clinton became president of our country, while I will never be counted as his supporter, I do know he came from a poor single family upbringing in from the state of Arkansas, which at the time was rated the worst of all 50 states in education. Thurgood Marshall, a black United States supreme court justice, put himself through law school while working as a janitor. Bill Gates came from a very modest unbringing as well, kinda shows you what a college dropout can do doesn\'t it? People in the lowest levels of our society are never doomed to a life a crime just because of their lack of education, that is, if they choose to better themselves, while it is not always easy, it can be done. People are not born into a life a crime and criminals are not molded by their surrounding, it is weak individuals that take the easy way out and create their own misfortunes by following the path of least resistance in most cases.

Lastly, Ghandi. What was that quote?, \"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind\"? No offence but if he were such a great leader he would have better united his people and helped lead them out of the poverty that India is still gripped with. While non violence has its place, passive resistance does not solve all things and inaction often is far worse that even the most feeble effort. Here are a few better word to live by, \"A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave man only one\", or maybe even \"Beef..it\'s what\'s for dinner\". ( Yes, that last one was wrong, but I couldn\'t help myself!)

The death penaly is not a perfect solution that much is true, but in my heart I believe it to be the solution that is needed to help protect society from a small group of individuals that have nothing left to offer but further pain and suffering.

\"Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong...\"- Dennis Miller
 

Mosch

Active member
Orginal gepostet von johnboyjjb
Originally posted by MoschBut if someone steals because of hunger you wouldn\'t chop off his hand, would you?
They used to and it would cut down on theft. You wouldn\'t get caught stealing more than twice.

Yeah, right. I know it used to be done, but it is not anymore. Somehow mutilating people is a barbaric punishment that is better left in the past while killing them is still a good idea. Sounds like a nice metal band (Hypocrisy) to me.
How about \"We cut off his head so he won\'t think about stealing anymore\"? I think this idea was from Pratchett.

I still stand by what I said, and Braveheart712: I really doubt that there are so many deaths among wardens and other officers in prisons, but that is not the point. People that apply for such a job and/or accept it KNOW that there is some kind of risk involved.
 

LordofthePit

New member
Lastly, Ghandi. What was that quote?, \"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind\"? No offence but if he were such a great leader he would have better united his people and helped lead them out of the poverty that India is still gripped with. While non violence has its place, passive resistance does not solve all things and inaction often is far worse that even the most feeble effort.

ehm... Ghandi and his passive resistance did get India independent, and you can\'t really blame the fact that india still lives in poverty on Ghandi, since he was killed a year later. And you shouldn\'t mistake passive resistance for inactivity: Passive resistance means non-violent resistance which is a whole lot different from doing nothing.

Fighting violence with violence always breeds more violence.

Ok that\'s it I now retreat from this thread before it starts discussing every political opinion from here to australia. I will just leave you with the following thought:

\"I\'ve always dreamed of becoming a baseball, but now I say we must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling towards freedom!\":D
 

Braveheart712

New member
Originally posted by LordofthePit

Fighting violence with violence always breeds more violence.

Not if it\'s done right...LOL

@Spacemonkey, you are correct never heard of that movie, I have seen some international pictures but I yield to you good sir and now pronounce you King of All Obscure Movie Quotes !!!!
 

finn17

New member
\'Chop their goolies off...\'

You wont have found it, because it wasn\'t a movie quote. It\'s from a classic 80\'s British satirical programme called, \'Not the Nine o\'Clock news\'. I used the same line in a thread about disruptive users..

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=1069

No-one else recognised it then either.....;)

Sorry Spacemunkie..lit looks like it\'s you and me against the world:D

\'Not the Nine o\'Clock News\' may have got some international airing because it starred Rowan Atkinson of (the crap) \'Mr Bean\' fame....
 

Rab

Member
Originally posted by finn17
Sorry Spacemunkie..lit looks like it\'s you and me against the world:D

Not just you two...

\"I like trucking. I like trucking. I like trucking and I like to truck\"

It must\'ve been good \'cause I was just a kid then and I remember it.

Cheers - Rab.
 

Fizl

Secret Crocodile
I would watch it on occasion as well, but I was a bit young to understand it all.

I do remember the I like trucking thing, and didn\'t Pamela Stevenson do impressions of janet Street Porter?

Shaz
 

Day

New member
Let me first state that currently I work as a research aid, earning a whopping 1400e each month, of which I pay about 400e in taxes.

You have quite interesting views and you\'ve chosen your words well. However, I wish to point out a few problems. No offense intended - I\'m doing this just for the sake of an argument. :)

About the innocents executed -argument: In making the argument solely a question of mathematics (which method saves more innocent lives: abolishing death penalty or executing the criminals and some innocents in the process), it\'s no longer plausible to argue on some moral issue to support the choice of method. If both methods cause the death of innocents (either in death row or on the streets when murderers commit the same crime again), neither one can actually claim a moral higher ground.

Originally posted by Braveheart712
The act of compassion and forgiveness, the abililty to empathize with the criminal does not negate the necessity of punishment in any way. There is a punishment that comes with any crime.

If so, then what forgiveness actually is? Forgiving the criminal but still demanding punishment? Since in a democratic society it is not some abstract society that punishes the criminal but the people of that country that the victim of that crime is part of as well. In practice, that victim is punishing the criminal.

Considering what Jesus did: Judas did betray Jesus, but Jesus forgave him and did not demand punishment. Judas simply himself could not live with his actions and killed himself. Since most philosophers (Kant, for example) consider free will to be a principal requirement of morality, Jesus had nothing to do with Judas\' death - he might have seen it coming but did not hang him. But in democracy, the victim is responsible for the punishment that is given to the criminal - thus not actually forgiving him by demanding punishment.

Originally posted by Braveheart712
The death penalty is not a perfect solution that much is true, but in my heart I believe it to be the solution that is needed to help protect society from a small group of individuals that have nothing left to offer but further pain and suffering.

...which is a perfectly acceptable view. I disagree, though. :)

Were I required to defend death penalty, I would use Kant\'s categorical imperative: \"Act so that your actions could become a law\". In a sense a same sort of argument that is in the bible: Do to others what you\'d like them to do for you (or something, sorry I\'m finnish, not english - dunno how your translation puts it).

Considering that, it could be argued that by committing a murder the murderer is actually giving up the right that no one may take the life of other - since he no longer upholds it, neither are others required to uphold such a principle when dealing with him.

Of course, the innocents killed in death row is still a problem for that kind of argument but still...
 

finn17

New member
Okay, okay....

Originally posted by FredrickvonCarstein
See, this is why executions are necesary. Now if you rest your neck on this block Mr. Finn. lol
I will concede that Mr Bean wasn\'t crap initially, but it hasn\'t aged well and that damn film certainly was a whole pile of pants. Rowan Atkinson himself however is very good, particularly as \'Blackadder\'. Although not the first series \'cos that\'s pants as well:D
 
Originally posted by finn17
Originally posted by FredrickvonCarstein
See, this is why executions are necesary. Now if you rest your neck on this block Mr. Finn. lol
I will concede that Mr Bean wasn\'t crap initially, but it hasn\'t aged well and that damn film certainly was a whole pile of pants. Rowan Atkinson himself however is very good, particularly as \'Blackadder\'. Although not the first series \'cos that\'s pants as well:D
My family has all of the episodes on tape. Great show. The movie was horrible, particularily because it had to be made to fit with American audiences (some parts were however good particuarily the paint thinner). I never got to see Blackadder unfortunately. I\'ll have to find a way I suppose.
 
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