Hello and ideas for a line of resin miniatures

[Phrawgg]

Hi! i don't think I have posted on here before so just in case it is my first time, hello! Great to be here!

I have a series of scifi miniatures I'm thinking of producing, vehicles mostly, in 28mm scale. I am designing them in Rhino and will have them 3d printed, then resin cast. I was wondering if anyone could comment on the demand or lack thereof for such things.

The idea is this: a lot of what exists in the scifi-28mm range, as far as vehicles, go, are these very iconic-looking things that make no sense aesthetically or technically. Some of them are exaggerated, some of them are ridiculous. This observation isn't a damnation of these things, rather I'm just saying this is the norm. So I was thinking of producing vehicles that are more believable and better designed than say, a Leman Russ. Like tanks designed to imply that they actually have enough space inside for crew, machinery, and an engine big enough to power the thing.

I would try to keep costs down below Games Workshop's prices, and one way I was thinking of doing that was with the use of vacuum formed parts for part of these things, like if you had something like the side of a WW1 style tank, the track assembly plus wheels would all be one or two pieces and the side wall would be vacuum formed. It isn't what the average miniatures consumer is used to but it would save cost without compromising on quality.

What do you think? Think it will sell? No? if not, why? Thank you!

 

[mud duck]

The "problem" that I see with this is that these couldn't be used as replacements for say games workshops tanks as the size would be off. Now I would think that a range of say modern vehicles in 28mm would be a better seller if you could keep the price down. As a plus there's no IP problems that would have to be addressed.
just my thoughts.

 

[Vycem]

Honestly, and I could be off-base here, it might sell if it A) looks good and B) could make a decent proxy. From what I see, not that many people build and paint vehicles purely for display (at least not compared to minis), but if they could be used in tabletop games, I'm sure there would be a market. But as I said, it has to grab people visually.

 

[Phrawgg]

The "problem" that I see with this is that these couldn't be used as replacements for say games workshops tanks as the size would be off. Now I would think that a range of say modern vehicles in 28mm would be a better seller if you could keep the price down. As a plus there's no IP problems that would have to be addressed.
just my thoughts.

why would the size be off? The diference would really only be like five milimeters to ten in length, less height. It would be a redistrobution. How much of a market would there be for 28mm modern vehicles though? It seems like the market is biased towards scifi subjects, since that is what most of the figures seem to be about.

 

[Phrawgg]

Honestly, and I could be off-base here, it might sell if it A) looks good and B) could make a decent proxy. From what I see, not that many people build and paint vehicles purely for display (at least not compared to minis), but if they could be used in tabletop games, I'm sure there would be a market. But as I said, it has to grab people visually.

Well they would be intended for table top games. My hope is that the results will look good; is it appropriate for me to share the renders on this forum for people to rate, since these will ultimately become actual models, or is the general feeling that this board is for minis that have already been produced in real space?

About grabbing people visually, there is another user on here, I think he calls himself "mortmort" and he produces this miniature as an alternative to the Leman Russ:
http://gwfwmort.bplaced.net/web1/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=2&lang=en&vmcchk=1&Itemid=2
It's proportions are a little different but it works IMHO. He posted it elsewhere on this site and people have responded favorably so it inspired me to make a competitor.

I really value your feedback guys! I could post my preliminary drawings but they aren't very good. I'm a better sculptor than draftsman. Should i give it a shot?

 

[mud duck]

why would the size be off? The diference would really only be like five milimeters to ten in length, less height. It would be a redistrobution. How much of a market would there be for 28mm modern vehicles though? It seems like the market is biased towards scifi subjects, since that is what most of the figures seem to be about.

I guess that I thought that you where think along the lines of "True-Sizing" vehicles, which seems to me would add more then a couple mm here and there. As for modern Vs. Sci fi, yes that does seem to be the case. But does that mean that there could be a untapped market? The only 28's of modern stuff I can think of is tank models. And those really are not good for gaming with, plus price. The closest gaming stuff that I can think of was Battlefield Evo? and I think that was closer to 48 and had a limited number of vehicle models.

Please do post you drawings thou, could help for feedback.

Just a thought.

 

[Master of fact]

I think it could be a worthwhile project. I am always on the lookout to proxy vehicles for 40k but more along the Drop pod lines not rhino's. However if it looked good and usable i would buy. Why dont you do a sketch of some of the ideas you have. This site is amazing for getting feedback, its not always positive but is always constructive.

If you were doing true scale even games workshop dont do it with their vehicles, a rhino would be nearly the size of a raider and normal marines are the sixe of terminators.

But really a sketch or few generated image's would be great. Please continue with your plans!!!

 

[Phrawgg]

This is one of my lackluster sketches for a tank:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phrawggmak/4565973951/

It's based on a few things: the Russ of course, but also there is a pre-WW2 German tank that looks a bit like that from the side. the name starts with an N.

One thing I was going to do is use magnets so the smaller turrets could be interchangeable. The only thing I don't like about the Mortian tank is it has soooo many parts, so I was thinking I would keep the construction of mine as simple as possible, though the use of vacuum formed plastic might complicate things just a bit if you aren't familiar with the stuff: does anyone have any experience with RC car bodies? its like that. You have to cut it out of the remnants of the sheet it was formed in. Not a hard job, just unfamiliar to people used to building things a different way.

I was also thinking of doing some aircraft to compete with ForgeWorld and similar people. I don't have any good drawings of those unfortunately.

For what it's worth, this is the stuff I normally do; fine art sculpture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phrawggmak/sets/72157603958631233/

I am still learning the 3d rendering software but eventually I want to also make terrain to sell as well, some of which would be properly alien-looking, inspired by some of my fine art stuff. Also some crashed spaceship things too like my more geometric sculpture. By the way if anyone has any critical input on anything i've posted, I would love to hear it because I live in a bubble of sycophants around here, not to say that I'm great but rather that I've got a close circle of friends who don't always see what needs to be improved.

I love boards like this, where everyone is serious about what they do! Gives me hope for the world!

 

[ollieholmes]

My immediate thought is hwo many people are willing to work with Vac forms? Personaly it doesnt phase me as ive come from a scale aircraft modelling background so ive built many of them before but they can be a scary prospect.

 

[ollieholmes]

As for the concept i like it, i keep meaning to scratch build something simmiler but i ever get around to it. If you are looking at resin casting drop me a PM and i can put you in touch with some people who would help you or even cast them for you.

 

[Master of fact]

I like the tank design, very familiar with RC kits. Been trying to get a Suburu Impreza going again! Grr. It would be fun doing vac formed models.

As far as i know it would leave few if any mold lines, and thats a bonus. Really digging this thread. Keep it going!

PS your art is very good, i like the shark very much!

 

[Phrawgg]

Thank you guys! I am very relieved by the positive reception. Ollieholmes, you are right about the question of how many people would be willing to work with vac formed things. I was thinking of having a boarder indicating line near where the form connects with the sheet so people know where to cut. The lower price might also help. I know of at least one guy who might be willing to do the molding and casting for me but I will PM you for the name of the other guy. I live in New England USA so if he isn't relatively nearby this might not be economical but thank you very much!

About RC car bodies, another project I am working on is making a vacuum form mold pattern for a Uaz 3151 body for 1:10 rock crawler chassis'. It will be made in ABS rather than Lexan because everyone I've spoken to who is in the hobby says guys who have scalers like things to be more friendly to modification and custom paint jobs, and most lexan shells don't come close on that front.

About the sharks, they are actually a fairly early project. I was thinking of having my brother bronze cast at least one. He owns an art foundry in Chicago.

another source for inspiration for the tank drawing i posted is the self-propelled guns from the movie Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. I'm a big fan of those. If the initial version of the tank goes well, I might also do an SPG variant like that too.

 

[ollieholmes]

A good American company to talk to would be these people, again if you mention my screen name they should know who you are talking about:
http://www.twomikesresin.com/

 

[waghorn41]

I like the designs but I've built vac form before and my only concern here might be rigidity. Some models made this way are subject to being easily crumpled due to the very nature of the fewer parts/construction. Foir something as big as a tank hull you'd need some interior stiffening I think.

 

[Phrawgg]

Well one of the wrinkles is that I would make the forms a little thicker than normal, but I wasn't necessarily going to use the vacuum formed stuff for structural areas. It might make the parts a little harder to remove from their plastic sheets though.

There have got to be other ways to keep the cost down besides vacuum forming right? I want to be cheaper than that Mortian thing, and definitely cheaper than GW. Maybe figure out a way to keep the parts count low? Anyone got some other ideas?

 

[ollieholmes]

The big cost with models is either the toolng for injection plastic or resin moulds lmited life (20-25 resin runs comapred to 5000+ from injection moulds).

 

[Dragonsreach]

Well one of the wrinkles is that I would make the forms a little thicker than normal, but I wasn't necessarily going to use the vacuum formed stuff for structural areas. It might make the parts a little harder to remove from their plastic sheets though.

There have got to be other ways to keep the cost down besides vacuum forming right? I want to be cheaper than that Mortian thing, and definitely cheaper than GW. Maybe figure out a way to keep the parts count low? Anyone got some other ideas?

I have to be honest here, look at your target audience before you settle on your production methodology.
IF you are aiming at an alternative to GW's vehicles then forget Vacu-forming as the vast majority of GW's demographic are in the 12-15 year old range.
Handling Vacu-formed models isn't easy even for an old hack like me.
Put a difficult kit in the hands of a stressy teenager....sorry recipe for a disaster.

 

[Phrawgg]

The big cost with models is either the toolng for injection plastic or resin moulds lmited life (20-25 resin runs comapred to 5000+ from injection moulds).

Injection molding tooling is the only process i don't know how to do. I expect injection molding is one reason Forgeworld charges so much, yes?

Would it be wise to do a few short runs of the product based on a few clone molds before i invest in the more costly process? How much cost btw? I've heard for some injection molds using other kinds of plastic, it can run into the 100's of thousands. It can't possibly that bad for resin can it? The parts won't even be all that big.

Also, I have an engineer aquaintance who tells me there is a specific program the pros use to design molds so that when the plastic shrinks in them, it doesn't produce sink marks and other such artifacts but it requires way more math sense than I have. Is that sort of thing needed for designing a resin injection mold?

 

[ollieholmes]

Im no expert on resin casting but i would try talking to those peoples websites i have sent you links to. As for injection plastic try these people, they do alot of wargaming stuff:
http://renedra.co.uk/

Ive herd the sort of numbers involved in making injection moulds for plastic arcraft and yes it is scary numbers.

 

[ollieholmes]

Sort runs in resin are doable, short runs in injection moulding are not worth it as your costs per unit are going to be high.

As i said the cost is resin is the fact that the mould last so few a runs and there is a high wasteage rate. I know some companies use injection moulding machines and tools to inject resin but i have not found a company actualy offering this service yet. This company uses the process to make them but they are based in Russia, the website is actualy the UK distributor but they might be able to help.
http://www.neomega-resin.com/