How extreme is Islamic extremism?
- Thread starter treide
- Start date
Originally posted by Ritual
Nevertheless, that sort of rhetorics was used to get people to join the crusades. When you\'re being promised salvation and the posibility to own land you\'re not really tempted to question the theological stringency.
Pope: Ok we need to take back the Holy Land. Go over there and start killing arabs
Knight: But God says its wrong to kill
Pope: Look, I\'m Gods representative here. Not only do I say its perfectly fine to kill arabs, you get to keep thier money and goods after.
Knight: But what if I die?
Pope: Then you\'ll go to heaven and be Gods bestest buddy ever
Knight: Whats there to lose? Ok lads, lets go slaughter some heathens
God: Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
funnymouth
Active member
Originally posted by matty1001
lol
man, i love that comic series.
Shawn R. L.
New member
Walt a Klansman?? WOW......sad.
farseerlum
New member
muslim extremists are pretty extreme.
so are christian extremists.
i haven\'t met any mormon extremists but i assume that because there aren\'t many of them. and the ones that were extreme were counted as \"that nutcase\"
there is some history for hindu extremists, but they are even less extreme than others. although some cultures have faired worse than others at the extremists hands.
buddists are very extreme, killing themselves to make a point. and in their extremness have hopefully found peace. varies geographicly though.
so are christian extremists.
i haven\'t met any mormon extremists but i assume that because there aren\'t many of them. and the ones that were extreme were counted as \"that nutcase\"
there is some history for hindu extremists, but they are even less extreme than others. although some cultures have faired worse than others at the extremists hands.
buddists are very extreme, killing themselves to make a point. and in their extremness have hopefully found peace. varies geographicly though.
farseerlum
New member
dude quote the rest of the line.
There may be a direct link, here, between the terms \'extreme\' and \'extremist\'
From the little I know, hindu religion as a whole, is a lot less pacifist than people think. There is a whole lot of Deities and ritual surrounding warfare, and many great warriors have been partly \'deified\'; there are many stories of war of epic proportions linked to the birth of certain schools within hinduism. And if you look at asian history, there have been numerous wars between different schools of buddhism.
It\'s not just christian vs muslim...
farseerlum
New member
hindus persecute their own and pretty much leave everyone else to their own. unless they feel they are being intruded on.
but they are people like everyone else and will react badly to conflicts. espescially ones that have dragged on.
pakistan and india have been at war for a realy long time. atrocities occur on both sides. i think it would be fair to say it isn\'t religous now, it\'s racial.
but they are people like everyone else and will react badly to conflicts. espescially ones that have dragged on.
pakistan and india have been at war for a realy long time. atrocities occur on both sides. i think it would be fair to say it isn\'t religous now, it\'s racial.
Already some really interesting points, but I would like to get back to my original question.
Is violent extremism more common in Islam than in other major religions, and if so, why? My gut feeling is that it is more common in Islam. Certainly there are fanatics in all religions that are happy to kill and/or die for their cause, but I think it is more rampant in Islam. If moderate Islam is the clear majority and moderate Islamic religious leaders do not condone the actions of radical violent extremists, then why is the extremism on the rise?
I don\'t think you can explain it on the basis of a charismatic leader, as was the case with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or the Jonestown massacre in Guyana. These extremist groups are well organized, large, and international in scope. The argument about extremism in Mormonism is interesting, but the scale does not compare to extremism in Islam, IMHO.
Is violent extremism more common in Islam than in other major religions, and if so, why? My gut feeling is that it is more common in Islam. Certainly there are fanatics in all religions that are happy to kill and/or die for their cause, but I think it is more rampant in Islam. If moderate Islam is the clear majority and moderate Islamic religious leaders do not condone the actions of radical violent extremists, then why is the extremism on the rise?
I don\'t think you can explain it on the basis of a charismatic leader, as was the case with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or the Jonestown massacre in Guyana. These extremist groups are well organized, large, and international in scope. The argument about extremism in Mormonism is interesting, but the scale does not compare to extremism in Islam, IMHO.
No Such Agency
New member
Anyone who wants a heartwrenching take on this can watch Deepa Mehta\'s \"Earth\" - a film about the partition of Pakistan and India. The zealots and butchers were out in force, you did NOT want to be caught on the wrong side of the line. Whole trainloads of people were massacred and their bodies mutilated out of sheer hate.
As for my take on extremist religion, I think your religion is what you make it. You can choose to interpret the millennia-old call to \"holy war\" as literal, or you can interpret it as a metaphor for the struggle against your own sin. You can argue over the meaning of a Hebrew phrase translated into English via Latin by long-dead monks, or you can say \"a truly loving god would not have meant something cruel and exclusionary\". Your choice reflects more on you than on whatever god you believe in.
(Apparently I am what\'s called a \"secular humanist\" btw. We tend to sleep in on weekends and join Amnesty International...)
DrEvilmonki
Active member
The reality is that due to whatever circumstance the muslim world is disproportionately more distressed socially than \"christian\" countries. I think you don\'t have to look to much further than that to find why more are being radicalised than in western cultures.
lizcam
New member
Originally posted by Ritual
When you get to the bottom of what the Quran preaches it\'s basically the same values that the Christians believe in. And just like there\'s Christian cultures who are more violent than others and there\'s Christian extremists who won\'t hesitate to use violence, there\'s muslim equivalents. IIRC the Quran says, for instance, that you should be tolerant towards other beliefs and learn things from them that may be useful (unless they contradict Islam, of course
Okay, I\'m holding my breath posting anything about this because, like was said earlier, this could get ugly fast. That being said, my father is a minister and has pointed something out. He says that Islam is going thru\' the same kind of \"dark age\" that Christianity did after Rome fell. He equates the extremists to those monks who ran the inquisition in Europe. When a political base that is fundamentaly religious at it\'s core breaks up or is unstable this is what happens. The extreme fanatics take it on themselves to purify the world. This will not end until the main body of Islamic peoples stand up and say \"ENOUGH\". No one else can stop it. It\'s like trying to dry out a junkie.
Originally posted by Ritual
Nevertheless, that sort of rhetorics was used to get people to join the crusades. When you\'re being promised salvation and the posibility to own land you\'re not really tempted to question the theological stringency.
True enough. I just think there is a very big difference between saying that a religion encourages people to do such things and saying that it has been used historically to do so (or even that it is now). My main concern was with the arguments in the links, but it also pays to remember that people make better subjects than abstractions such as \"Christianity\" or \"Islam.\"
The notion for example that Christian doctrine explains the crusades is far to simplistic. It would be fair to say that Christian doctrines lent themselves to abuse in that case and others, and for some of us that is damning enough criticism. To suggest that those doctrines in themselves explain such events as the crusades is stretching the truth quite a bit.
Shawn R. L.
New member
Saw a bumper sticker - \"God, save from your followers\"
What is and is not an extreme position really strikes me as an historical accident as much as anything else. There is nothing inherently irrational about many an extremist position, and much that we take for granted today was once an extremist position. America would for example be a far different place had some fanatics not thought to fire guns at people over the issue of popular sovereignty (even they might have been a bunch of smugglers and drug peddlers).
What makes an extremist seems to be that they are in the mionority and willing to act on it anyway.
Notw btw, that I am not saying their actions are right or wrong, just that I don\'t think \"extremist\" tells us much one way or the other.
What makes an extremist seems to be that they are in the mionority and willing to act on it anyway.
Notw btw, that I am not saying their actions are right or wrong, just that I don\'t think \"extremist\" tells us much one way or the other.
farseerlum
New member
true enough. although i wouldn\'t even put extemists in the minority boat. extremists are \"them\" while \"we\" are right.
would i attack soft targets to defend my country and beliefs? anyone who asks this usually answers yes in some degree.
would i attack soft targets to defend my country and beliefs? anyone who asks this usually answers yes in some degree.
As DrEvilmonki mentioned, most Islamic areas are in various degrees of turmoil. In such places, like I mentioned in my first post, acceptance for radicalism is usually higher and it\'s easier to recrute. Some countries are at civil war or close to it, like Somalia and Afghanistan for instance. Some countries have long-going ethnic conflicts, like Iraq and again Afghanistan. Then of course, there\'s the really explosive conflicts: Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan (again), Pakhistan/India. Coupled with other common factors like poverty (not very much radicalism in Dubai, AFAIK), unemployment etc. this is an excellent foundation for radical violent groups.
Another place where radical extremism is on the march is among youth here in the West. Young men that have had a troublesome youth, often with criminality and drug abuse, are recruited in prisons and other such facilities. These men are not seldom born in the West but have family ties to the Middle East and usually they are not very religious to begin with and come from moderate families. But, through clever manipulation they are led to believe that Islam (radical Islam) is their salvation. This type of brainwashing of people in a vulnerable position is a quite typical sect method.
Now, I don\'t claim to have all the answers to your question, but I have done lots of reading on this subject and I feel like I can begin to understand, at least. Violent radicalism is something that has its highs and lows and one can not say that it dominates the picture of Islam during its entire history. Other cultures have had their periods of turmoil and similar radicalism. For instance, during the constant warring in the Medeival times it was quite common to kill off your enemies\' farmers, as that would make it more difficult for them to feed their armies and it would also lower morale.
