Manufacturers banning the sale of items on ebay.

[generulpoleaxe]

Originally posted by fullybakedbear

Originally posted by supervike
But, my point is that we shouldn\'t have to artificially prop up these stores to stay in business. If I can buy something for fifteen dollars cheaper on Ebay than in the store, the store needs to bump up what they do. If they can\'t compete in price, compete with service, or value-added\' stuff.

Right spot on. There is absolutely no good reason to do commerce in one\'s own locale. The american economy has flourished under the concept that what ever is cheapest is the best. It isn\'t like Iowa lost 3400 non agricultural jobs in April.

You also don\'t seem to be aware that there is federal leglislation that prevents any manufacturer from selling it\'s products directly to the consumer for less than its advertised retail price. Without this protection, there wouldn\'t be much in the way of stores anymore... everyone would direct ship to their customers. GW would ONLY sell online at about 60% of the retail price

to paraphrase the many morons who play WOW... L2economy.

It\'s govermental taxes and regulations that interfere with the market.
These push up prices due to running costs of a company (both with utility bills, production costs and employment)
The market should decide what a product can be sold at, if that meens that a company can not operate in said country due to running costs then it should relocate instead of trying to get regulations changed.
Unions are another problem, they think that higher wages are neccesary and as such put their workers out of a job due to increased employment costs, the opposite of what they actualy are trying to do.
If companies, workers and unions actualy told goverments to lessen taxes (by lower the goverments operating costs through downsizing and cutting out waste) then every one would be better off (apart from the control freaks in goverment)

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by fullybakedbear

Right spot on. There is absolutely no good reason to do commerce in one\'s own locale. The american economy has flourished under the concept that what ever is cheapest is the best. It isn\'t like Iowa lost 3400 non agricultural jobs in April.

You also don\'t seem to be aware that there is federal leglislation that prevents any manufacturer from selling it\'s products directly to the consumer for less than its advertised retail price. Without this protection, there wouldn\'t be much in the way of stores anymore... everyone would direct ship to their customers. GW would ONLY sell online at about 60% of the retail price

That\'s not what I\'m trying to get across.

Cheaper is not always best. But if there is no incentive for the consumer to purchase things locally, is he expected to blindly follow that creedo?

If offering a place to game and spread the hobby is what you percieve as value added, then by all means, you SHOULD buy from the LGS.

Regarding the Federal legislation....I didn\'t know I was supposed to be aware of that.

 

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by supervike
That\'s not what I\'m trying to get across.

Cheaper is not always best. But if there is no incentive for the consumer to purchase things locally, is he expected to blindly follow that creedo?

If offering a place to game and spread the hobby is what you percieve as value added, then by all means, you SHOULD buy from the LGS.

I could buy gren stuff online all day long for cheaper than in person, but in person I get to make sure it goes home with me in one piece, and that it isn\'t dried out. Cheaper is not always better, I agree.

But a store must provide something for me to want to go in and buy and a reaon why I shouldn\'t go somewhere cheaper. Even a place to play isn\'t really much incentive where you have to haul all your minis in for a game, and then just watch as people crowd around and knock things off the table and break them.

The store needs to offer more in the way of minis games such as protection and keeping the card crack addicts at bay from destroying stuff.

Too many stores these days think the customer owes them something, but they owe the customer everything for that customer not going somewhere else.

If it happens to be that a local store has poor service and higher prices, why should ANYONE be forced to buy locally rather than online, where they can get the product cheaper and with higher quality service.

That is just something many places are forgetting, and others like Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, etc are learning that some people would prefer not to have to wade through a store of people to get one thing that may not even be in stock, when you can go online and be assured you can get the product you want, and many times at a lower cost even AFTER S&H is included.

No reason at all to go to a store to buy something if you don\'t want to. No reason at all to support a store that doesn\'t offer the quality service or employees you wish to see remain in your area.

 

[wiccanpony]

\'brick and mortar\' store? ...I would love to shop at one, but do to my advancing disability I can’t... that’s what makes shopping online a necessity not a luxury

 

[funnymouth]

1) i think vike hit the nail on the head.

2) a petition means absolutely squat in the business world, unless you can demonstrate the support of a significant portion of the consumer base (not likely).

3) GW, or whoever, can opt to sell, or not to sell, to whomever they choose as long as the practices are not discriminatory. they cant prevent you from selling product you already own, but they dont have to sell you anything new.

>more to the point, they dont have to sell you anything new AT WHOLESALE PRICES. anyone can buy them at full retail and resell them if they so choose, but i find it unlikely that they will make any money.

it all amounts to a bunch of posturing. either way, i wont be buying any GW products.

 

[DXM]

I going to give you an example why I would rather buy at a store than online.
I needed Milliput/A+B. I can go to a nearly shop, meet the owner have a coffee, talk for about 45 min about the hobby, upcoming projects, upcoming shows,how the internet is hurting business, etc, . By the way he does have the best prices in town. Then go home and start building . The other option is to go on the computer, order the stuff online, pay for shipping, hope the putty is fresh. Then wait upto 2 weeks for delivery of the Notice that my parcel is waiting at the post office. After paying the GST( 5%) and PST ( 8%) and a $5.00 calculation fee. Yup, Canadian custom charges you $5.00 to punch 12 buttons to figure out the tax and Canadian do have to pay taxes on product brought in to the country. I have the stuff in my hands and go home to start building. So the putty has the extra cost of shipping and customs fees, not such a good deal ordering online.
My 2 cents

 

[No Such Agency]

^^ in addition to what he said about calculation fees etc, I\'ve been hit with 40% duty (IIRC) on a perfectly banal shipment of minis from the States to Canada. Ridiculous. I might not even have ordered them if I\'d known how much they would cost, and it made me rather leery of ordering online across borders ever since. When I go to the store, I know how much items will cost, including taxes. And as he says, I get to walk home with them today.

IMO, there will always be space for both stores, and mail order. The store is where you buy things that they can keep in stock. Popular games and minis, common tools and supplies. Mail order is for the weird sh*t that nobody else in your town will ever ask for at the store. All of us here buy tons of both categories.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by Master of fact
Some of these brand owners argue that their objective is to prevent the sale of counterfeits on eBay. But thanks to our work with 31,000 other rights owners, only 0.15% of listings last year were detected or reported as potentially counterfeit.

Given how GLACIALLY slow eBay is to act on reports* of counterfeits even when made by the original maker I find this rich.

*Plus how hard they have made doing this historically.

Originally posted by supervike
I don\'t know about the argument of the \'brick and mortar\' store as being some sort of virtuous entity that deserves my money.

I\'ve spend lots of money over the years at my local gaming store. Believe me, lots. Yet, I\'ve never played a single game there...or did anything other than buy stuff.

But, as I find better deals on the internet, why the heck shouldn\'t I take advantage of those? I don\'t owe anything to the retailer.

What the local retailers need to do, is to find a better way to cater to me. If they want my spending cash, make it worth my time to want to come there.

I won\'t be put on a guilt trip to think I need to support them. It\'s quite the reverse. They need to support me.

Now, onto GW. They can do what they want, but it\'s just pushing me further and further away from purchasing any of their items. They can shrug their shoulders and wonder what happened to their customer base...but I think if they look at themselves, they\'ll know.

Well said.

Originally posted by Shadzar
I could buy gren stuff online all day long for cheaper than in person, but in person I get to make sure it goes home with me in one piece, and that it isn\'t dried out.

In the new packaging, in the rolls, it doesn\'t go off

Originally posted by No Such Agency
^^ in addition to what he said about calculation fees etc, I\'ve been hit with 40% duty (IIRC) on a perfectly banal shipment of minis from the States to Canada. Ridiculous. I might not even have ordered them if I\'d known how much they would cost, and it made me rather leery of ordering online across borders ever since.

Well that sucks! And I thought Ireland was bad :no:

Einion

 

[DXM]

Just to continue,a friend had ordered some book from England that was not available in Canada. The store owner in the UK placed an invoice and the store register receipt in the parcel for a value of $120 so customs would have no problems.
By friend went to to pick up the parcel and had to pay $180 in customs. He noticed that the customs official scratched out the $120 and wrote in $500 and charged duty on that. After calling customs he was told he had to go to their office and fill out a form, Only problem, it 3/4 across town, 45 min by car or 1 1/2 hours by bus each way only to have the fees dropped to $75.

Another example, I ordered online from Forge World, I got dinged GST, PST , the $5.00 Handling fee and the British VAT:cussing: Why do International customer have to pay a British tax? I could get that money back but again go to the British Consulate and fill out a form, more waited time.

Ebay can\'t stop me from selling off my collection but they have the right to not sell to certain sellers, ie, internet only stores. At work, we have had huge arguement in the past with GW because we were a brick and Mortor store that discounted GW product starting 14 years ago before anyone thought about discounting. They threatened to stop selling to us if we did not pull our prices in line with them. The owner asked them to please put that on paper. They realized what they said, it called price fixing. Opening an account with any distributer comes with conditions, if you don\'t like them or don\'t meet the requirement, If one of the conditions is you can not sell online and it\'s clearly written and understood. don\'t get the product. There has been some big distributer and stores in the card market that the manufacturer ( Wizards of the Coast ) banned from ordering product because they released product before the release date. Another classic example. An owner of a distribution company was invited to a special meeting/ meet and greet. While at the buffet table and one too many drink, called a lady a fat cow because she was holding upthe line. Well that lady was the North American manager of the manufacturer. Needless to say, thay have not been able to buy of them ever since. Even after many apologies.

As for store as was said,should sharpen their prices but stores do have to pay rent, wages, overhead, business taxes, etc. There is a point where you can not lower your prices to be competative and still try to carry on. We are there to make a living and not sell product at a dollar above cost. If that\'s the case, I should apply to be a Toronto garbageman, I would be on strike right now and be complaining that I could not live with a $20+ dollar an hour job, but that\'s another story.

 

[JojoTheFlamingMonkey]

I prefer to shop at a physical store when possible, if only for the purpose of inspecting goods before I buy them. Unfortunately the only game store in my immediate vicinity is run by an insufferable prick. He has systematically alienated every new and casual customer. Simple things like \"Is there anything I can help you find\" or \"Thanks for shopping with us and have a nice day\" are never uttered from his mouth. The last time I was there I asked him for an old Reaper catalog so I could special order something, but he said he didn\'t have any even though they were visible on the shelf behind him. I even once offered to hold a painting class, completely free of charge, and he said he wasn\'t interested \"in that sort of thing.\" After the last time I went there, which was probably the rudest he\'s ever been to me, even after I spent 70 clams, I vowed never go back in. It may mean I have to buy in bulk to offset the shipping costs, or that I may occasionally get a bad casting, but I will never give that bastard another cent. People like that deserve to go out of business. I\'m done ranting. I promise.

About Games Workshop: they\'ve had dubious practices for a long time, so I don\'t see why this should surprise anyone. If you don\'t like it, vote with your dollar. That\'s the only thing they\'ll listen to.

 

[windbourne]

This topic keeps on popping up around the \'net, with people slating GW for not dropping prices to match ebay sellers. The way I see it though it\'s the ebay seller who are doing the harm, not GW. (I\'m referring to the ones buying wholesale and operating as a store, not those selling old armies or the like)

GW is a company, and like all companies it has to make a profit. Last year it made around 10% if I remember correctly, which is by no means a high profit for a company of it\'s size.

So if GW made 10%, how are ebay sellers and the like selling for 20% less that GW? Simple answer is they don\'t have a large business to support. They don\'t have marketing, distribution, development, or maintenance of large facilities to take care of. They are mostly one or two people operating out of their home.

If you only cover the cost of producing the models then 25% of GWs prices is likely to be profit, and that\'s what the ebayers operate on. They get the models at wholesale for 25% less than GW prices then sell them at 20% less, netting themselves a 5% profit. Great for them because they have virtually zero outlay, so 5% is 5%.

Meanwhile GW made 10% profit over that same wholesale price, so they lost 15% somewhere. That would be the aforementioned marketing, distribution, etc... And the important stuff; development, creation, and innovation.

You can harp on about ebay prices all you like, but how many ebay sellers invest in creating new minis? How many pushed forward plastics tech to the point GW have? How many produce rule sets? How many provide brick and mortar stores for the people that want to use them? That\'s the 15% GW lose before turning their 10% profit.

GW re-invests into the hobby, ebayers just take.

If everyone brought from the ebayers, GW wouldn\'t have the money to produce new rules or new minis, or to maintain physical stores that you could play at or go to to see the latest releases.

For me everything that GW does is worth 20% more, same as everything rackham or privateer do is worth that bit extra, because after 14 years in the hobby I want it to be around 14 years from now.

-wb

 

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by windbourne
GW re-invests into the hobby, ebayers just take.

If everyone brought from the ebayers, GW wouldn\'t have the money to produce new rules or new minis, or to maintain physical stores that you could play at or go to to see the latest releases.

You are way off your rocker about how this industry works.

Welcome by the way.

GW makes money from being the manufacturer. Each item sold from a distributor gives money to run GW.

GW does NOT need to be a retailer in order to make money.

GW doesn\'t need to keep gaming stores alive either.

All they have to do to make money is make minis and rules for them. All of which is done in the UK.

US for example really gains nothing since no rules or minis are made or designed here. Only thing GW does here is sell stuff. Sure they have some GW stores, but who in the hell wants to go to them. The red shirts are only interested in trying to get you to buy the shelves clean, rather than helping with anything productive. Once they have your money, you mean jack and spit to them.

They are hurting themselves with overhead from running their own stores rather than promoting things better at other retailers, and doing their job as manufacturers and distributors, and making the money form that, and letting everyone else deal with the overhead costs of running a store.

A seller on eBay already has GW product, and GW already made their money on it, just as if it had gone through ANY retailer.

eBay sellers also promote the hobby to more people that either do not have local stores selling GW products, or decent ones. Also people that cannot pay by credit card such as may be required by mail-order or phone order of GW products from stores that are not locally.

eBay has been the thing helping get more people into many things let alone GW gaming since its inception.

Just like Amazon helping companies sell products, and get more people involve in the hobby items they sell, both hurt B&M\'s because of the lack of overhead, which reduces the price of items. In this day and age price is REALLY important to more than it used to be. For something like GW products that are already over-priced, any discount helps keep people buying more.

 

[james sequeira]

GW makes a profit from supplying people with their products, Last time I was working around GW products it was a 35% profit margin.

If they can off retail customers a 35% margin, it doesnt take genius to figure out they can make a tidy profit this way, and then a massive profit when people go to them directly rather than ebay stores or indie stores.

So even if ebay\'ers or anyone else has 20% off, GW do not loose out that much only in terms of if people bought from them directly, and I am sure they will see a drop in sales because alot of people will not buy GW products at full cost at the moment.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

Lots of companies (not just gw) are trying to stop their product from being sold below an amount that they want to control.
This is price fixing, when a group of people try to control the prices that their products are sold for (think of opec the oil group) this is a cartel.
It is bad for the customer, that is why their are regulations against it.

Corperations want it both ways and the market will always fight back, just like nature, it can never truly be controlled.

 

[Aliengod3]

GW definitely tries to do all they can to have a monopoly on their products. If they are not going to allow retailers to sell their products on Ebay then they might as well stop selling their products wholesale to all retailers because they are eliminating competition. I do not see what the big deal is. They should let people sell their products on ebay. Regardless of who sells their products where they are making a profit anytime they sell units. Damn prima donnas I say...