Miniature Mentor Painting DVD( dont buy)

[DaRat]

Originally posted by Jazz is for losers
Have you read the original thread?

Yes, thanks for asking.

I think they\'ve been treated unfairly. I don\'t know how you can try to justify this or why you\'d want to. OK it\'s not a large amount of money, but as the OP has already stated, it\'s not all about the money. And even then, to say \"It\'s $10\" is entirely disingenuous. By my reckoning, it\'s $20 + $5 per month. That\'s at least $80 in one year (or $56 if you count monthly subscription at $8. Even then, whet exactly are they getting? If I were more cynical I\'d say that the entire business model is just a fraud). Notice that MM hasn\'t answered any mail or been back to defend his standpoint. They\'ve been ripped off, it\'s quite easy to see how.

I think that our math comes out a bit differently.

I think that the entire matter is more of an issue of poor planning and business inexperience than anything else. To allege that the \"entire business model is just a fraud\" is quite a stretch. If they had insisted on payment upfront for a year\'s worth of videos and never produced more than 2 videos, then the fraud allegation might be appropriate.

I am trying to point out that, while MM may have screwed up a bit, it\'s really not worth the trouble to go around threatening legal action. The videos so far have been worthwhile for me.

But, hey, I look at the world a bit differently. I do pursue corrective action when I feel that someone hasn\'t delivered what they said that they would, but only as far as I think that the effort is worth the lost value.

 

[veggiemanuk]

$40 first month (usualy $50) and then $8/monthe there after (usualy 10) valid until July 2008.

Well, thats their current offer and it seems damn reasonable to me. Yes I understand your frustration Atacam but I doubt even you would expect a company to run at a loss because it miscalculated costs. Thats exactly what I think happened.

Another thing to consider is the fact that prices go up, they could just as easily justify it that way, maybe since they initialy started, their running costs have increased and they are just passing this on to their customers just as every other business in the world does.

 

[atacam]

Nope. sticking to my guns, they advertised a price, I paid the price, and the goods are now not being delivered at that price. I have also asked for a refund(which is my right) and havent even had a response. So I stand by everything I say.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by DaRat
To allege that the \"entire business model is just a fraud\" is quite a stretch.

Come on, don\'t leave out the qualifying part dude! \"If I were more cynical I\'d say...\" slightly qualifies the part that follows.

Given how this has unfolded seriously, they\'re a prime candidate for criticism on the original matter and for their subsequent handling of things.

Originally posted by atacam
Nope. sticking to my guns, they advertised a price, I paid the price, and the goods are now not being delivered at that price. I have also asked for a refund(which is my right) and havent even had a response. So I stand by everything I say.

Yep, dead on far as I can see.

If they had advertised it incorrectly (clerical error, typo, behind-the-scenes rethink, whatever) and when you went to pay they told you, \"No, sorry, that was a mistake. The actual price is...\" that would be a different matter.

But you don\'t get to change the terms of a contract afterwards and acceptance of payment = entering into contract. I don\'t believe there\'s ANY wiggle room on that, but someone please enlighten me if I\'m wrong.

Einion

 

[OrkyDave]

and I for one totally agree with you atacam, They just simply cannot move the goalposts because they ballesed up their costings- more fool them, they should have done their maths before offering at that price.

Working in retail, I know that if a product has a price tag on, we have to sell it at that price if it is cheaper, even if priced incorrectly. If thats the price its advertised at then thats the price the customer pays.

I once priced a box set incorrectly- the customer got a £10 bargain and I got a bollocking, but I learned from it and always check prices before stocking up niw.

 

[demonherald]

Originally posted by OrkyDave
and I for one totally agree with you atacam, They just simply cannot move the goalposts because they ballesed up their costings- more fool them, they should have done their maths before offering at that price.

Working in retail, I know that if a product has a price tag on, we have to sell it at that price if it is cheaper, even if priced incorrectly. If thats the price its advertised at then thats the price the customer pays.

I once priced a box set incorrectly- the customer got a £10 bargain and I got a bollocking, but I learned from it and always check prices before stocking up niw.

one of the minor technicalities in the law that is so often misunderstood.....I can definitely say this one with authority as I had a similar situation explained to me by no less than 3 different legal teams....

If a product in a buisness has been labelled wrong the retailer does NOT have to honour that price.....If the customer is in a shop and they see a wrongly labelled item they can ask for it at that price but the retailer isn\'t legally obliged.....

now say that item is visible from a source external to the shop then the goalpost changes in the customers favour.. If the price of that particular product is viewable in a window , on a website , on an advertising flyer or catalogue then the law says the retailer MUST honour that price..
This law was ammended to protect retailers and customers (I have a date and number of it in a file somewhere) protecting the retailer from being punished for both honest mistake and dishonest customers simply changing prices...It does however protect the customer in that if the price acts as an advertisement and draws that customer to them and into the premises to purchase the item then the price is to be honoured and stops people putting out adverts with ridiculously cheap prices they don\'t intend to honour....

to bore you even further I learned this when at staples a flyer went out to all it\'s buisness customersadvertising a chair that was £199.99 incorrectly printed as £19.99 as you can guess people were breaking the doors down and we had to honour the price...The only way round that is if an amendment sheet is then posted and reaches the customer before they reach the store or (as netto do all the time) labelling as while stocks last or limited availability....

so there ya go you can wake up now........

 

[demonherald]

Originally posted by Einion

But you don\'t get to change the terms of a contract afterwards and acceptance of payment = entering into contract. I don\'t believe there\'s ANY wiggle room on that, but someone please enlighten me if I\'m wrong.

Einion

There\'s always room for a wriggle otherwise where would the fun in life be....:beer::beer:

I believe you are right though.. just out of interest anyone who has bought this is there a terms and conditions box to accept/disagree with when initially purchasing ????????

 

[Wren]

One thing I find kind of odd is statements that sound as if Miniature Mentor is some huge conglomerate company out to rip everyone off. I doubt they\'re the Walmart of minis. So far as I can tell it\'s a handful of miniature enthusiasts who\'ve done what a lot of people begged to have done and have gone to the trouble, time and expense of making painting DVDs. Not that different to the sculptor who decides to start a small business and cast up a few hundred of his sculpts or bases to sell. They probably haven\'t been involved in a similar business in the past, so it\'s not too surprising that they miscalculated their expenses. I\'d also be surprised if the profits on this, if any, are anything more than modest and not commensurate with the kind of time that\'s put in.

I\'m not taking a side here, I definitely understand why atacam and others are upset that the early adopters are being asked to pay more to join the subscription service than those who waited to see how things went. I hope the folks at MM will consider reopening the dialogue and trying to come to some kind of mutually satisfactory arrangement. I also hope they\'ll take heed of the comments and suggestions for future products.

 

[atacam]

Originally posted by Wren
One thing I find kind of odd is statements that sound as if Miniature Mentor is some huge conglomerate company out to rip everyone off. I doubt they\'re the Walmart of minis. So far as I can tell it\'s a handful of miniature enthusiasts who\'ve done what a lot of people begged to have done and have gone to the trouble, time and expense of making painting DVDs. Not that different to the sculptor who decides to start a small business and cast up a few hundred of his sculpts or bases to sell. They probably haven\'t been involved in a similar business in the past, so it\'s not too surprising that they miscalculated their expenses. I\'d also be surprised if the profits on this, if any, are anything more than modest and not commensurate with the kind of time that\'s put in.

I\'m not taking a side here, I definitely understand why atacam and others are upset that the early adopters are being asked to pay more to join the subscription service than those who waited to see how things went. I hope the folks at MM will consider reopening the dialogue and trying to come to some kind of mutually satisfactory arrangement. I also hope they\'ll take heed of the comments and suggestions for future products.

Thats all I was asking for, an amicable agreeement. But they werent willing to budge. So I will now do m,y best to put people off buying it. Hit them where it hurts.

As someone has said why buy it, there are plently of tutorials on line for free. Well I though hell give the little guy a chance. But all MM have now done is stopped me doing it ever again for anyone else now. The shame about it all is, I am all for the little guy, hate the big corps, but at least with them, there is normally a comback, and you dont normally get blantly ignored, that is just plain rude.

I have also tried to find out the copyright on this material, but their privacy page is blank, as is their legal page.

I did wonder, if I could get done, if I distributed this tutorial for free. Only online of course, making no money at all. Wonder where I would stand on this? Of course if it\'s even a grey matter, I would not do it.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Originally posted by atacam

Originally posted by Wren
I did wonder, if I could get done, if I distributed this tutorial for free. Only online of course, making no money at all. Wonder where I would stand on this? Of course if it\'s even a grey matter, I would not do it.

Oh yep they have claimed Intellectual property rights on it.
You\'d get bent over a barrel and told to \"Squeal like a pig!\", then the lawyers would be after you.

 

[atacam]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach

Originally posted by atacam

Originally posted by Wren
I did wonder, if I could get done, if I distributed this tutorial for free. Only online of course, making no money at all. Wonder where I would stand on this? Of course if it\'s even a grey matter, I would not do it.

Oh yep they have claimed Intellectual property rights on it.
You\'d get bent over a barrel and told to \"Squeal like a pig!\", then the lawyers would be after you.

Thanks Mike. Well that\'s not going to happen then.

 

[matty1001]

OrkyDave: Most retail places where I and Laura have worked there is a rule now where three items have to be priced incorrectly for the customer to get it for the mistake.
Not just the one item.

 

[PrawnPower]

It\'s been a awefully long time since I\'ve done contract law

Seems to me though that when they realised they had a pricing issue, they should have either offered a refund or allowed the reduced rate to run for a limited period (Say 12 months) as special introductory offer, at which point it could go from $5 to $8.

Shame really . . .

 

[atacam]

Just got this email from them.

Hello everyone, the Miniature Mentor subscription service is available to prior customers
for a reduced price. Access the entire library for a small monthly fee. Cancel at anytime
no questions asked.

Only $20 for the first month and $8 for additional months if you purchased the first
video (Wolven video)

...or only $8 per month if you purchased both the first and second videos. That\'s right
no initiation fee. Please contact us at support@miniaturementor.com if you would like a
link for this offer.

OFFER EXPIRES JUNE 1/08

$20 then $8 per month link here...

So it looks like they cant answer an email, but just ask for the same payment. They obviously havent read this thread, or are just ignoring it.

It still works out more like this.:flame:

 

[OrkyDave]

Cheers DH & Matty, will now know for future, although hopefully will learn from my mistakes and there won\'t be a next time!

 

[Thunderhawker]

Customer service issues aside, the videos are great.

 

[atacam]

I have now found the email, and as I did not agree to keep it to myself, I feel I can let you see it.

Dear Luke,

We whole heartedly appreciate your support of our products and our company. However the cost of expansion for our fledgling company was enormous and it is a cost we have not recouperated. We began the idea of a subscription service with the intent of offering extrememly cheap instruction to people who were interested in this hobby but found it hard to justify such an expense for a hobby. While the subscription service may not accomadate everyone\'s taste at the moment - it is something that will become more attractive month after month as more tutorials are added to the library. Many people have taken the offer and to be honest it is still going to be a long while before we begin recouperating our costs. We are not in the financial position to reduce our costs. There is a very fine line between what is beneficial for the survival of a business and what is not - and it is not an easy line to walk. However, if you feel that strongly about it, please email us suggestion about how we can accomodate your particular situation. We ask that you do not post this message in any forum or publically accessable space - it is for your self alone.


Please do not let this undervalue our commitment to our customers. We have many more tutorials planned and even more artists have signed up including Sebastian Archer, Jennifer Haley and Marike Reimer. In the end we are confident that you will find our tutorials to your satisfaction.

Now I did email them back, making the suggestion that they honour their contract, that i entered, and to this date i havenet even had the courtesy of a response. But apparently they are based in Canada, so I have writing to the Canadian Trading standards to see what they think.

This has become a matter or principle not cost.

 

[Elly3438]

I agree Einion, if someone makes an offer, and the other person accepts and ~pays~ them the money and they take the money, then it\'s a contract. Now if MM would have denied the money and made a counteroffer to Atacam, then it would be a different story.
I think a refund is due, it\'s poor business not to offer that to someone when you try and change the terms of the original contract. Like I said, if no money was paid and accepted, then it would be a different story. Sounds pretty shiestery to me... and also, if it\'s only ten bucks, and insignificant, then why can\'t the company increase their standing with disgruntled employess and give the money back? Poor customer service, sounds like MM has their heads up their ass in that aspect...

 

[bullfrog]

Even for the higher cost per month it is still not too bad a deal if the tutorials are as good as number one ( I have not finished the Advanced tutorials one yet ... still waiting for that link).
Sure there is principle to consider but we were all willing to pay 30 bucks just for the one so in comparison it aint too bad.

 

[atacam]

Originally posted by bullfrog
Even for the higher cost per month it is still not too bad a deal if the tutorials are as good as number one ( I have not finished the Advanced tutorials one yet ... still waiting for that link).
Sure there is principle to consider but we were all willing to pay 30 bucks just for the one so in comparison it aint too bad.

No we were willing to pay $30 for the first one plus the subscription.