More School Violence - Newtown, Connecticut - 12/13/2012

[cfwheeler58]

As usual, Mike is the tempered voice of reason.

"Remind me again.....why do we let people have guns ?"
Truthfully, this line was intended rhetorically when written.

I have had more than my share of sorrow in my life, including the loss
of my 22 month old son in 1991. Those circumstances were senseless,
but thankfully not violent.

So, I repeat:

I pray for little....I pray these senseless tragedies stop.

Best Holiday Wishes to the CMON family.
Hold those you love a little closer this season.
Reach out to those in your life who are lonely, lost and/or misunderstood.
Keep your guns in a safe and secure place.

Sorry for hijacking my own thread

 

[hajmoid]

What a tragic loss, can't we all just get along?

 

[archreptile]

All good points and yes there is always going to be an outcry and talk of tightening up gun control laws followed by the 2nd amendment argument etc etc but bloodhowl, I believe you indirectly answered your own musing.
USA - Country where guns are readily available - disturbed individual goes on the rampage - 26 dead with up to 11 bullets per victim
China - Country where guns are not available - disturbed individual goes on the rampage, none dead.
And of course the individual (and society by implication) is to blame but guns are simply much more effective killing tools.

 

[squidders]

I agree that if the gun were not available, the number of victims would have been less, both sides of the gun debate must see that. But, the gun did not make the killer want to act, it merely gave him one of many methods of performing the killings. There are many other crude ways in which he would have acted if the gun was not available. Who is to say that the headline would not read 28 dead in school blaze, arson suspected?

Personally I am for gun ownership, in that they are inanimate objects and without the finger pulling the trigger, they are harmless. I think there should be decent gun control and I think the safe keeping of guns should be essential. Trigger locks, gun safes and other measures should be taken to ensure that the gun and ammunition should be kept safe.

handguns are illegal in the UK but people still get shot.

This is why, and it's not about to change: If you are willing to murder someone and risk getting caught, the risk of punishment for carrying an illegal weapon is trivial.

Lets face it - If I wanted to kill someone, and accept that there is a high risk I will be caught, why on earth would I be bothered by the crime of carrying the weapon?

And this is the crux of the whole matter, why did this person want so badly to do what he did? What is wrong with society, parenting, schooling, the environment that would drive someone to this act? Of course, this isn't something we can answer, there are different and subtle reasons every time so we go after what we can grasp - he used a gun.

He didn't steal a car and drive into everyone when they were leaving the school building, he didn't set fire to the school, he didn't fly a plane into the world trade center, he didn't unleash chemicals into the underground train station. All of these things have happened at one point or another and they are tragic and horrific and make me ashamed to be human but we still need to harp on about guns... and knives here in the UK. It's nonsense and it will not stop murder it will reduce the number. If all you want are a few dead, ban guns. But you can still tell the parents and friends of the few dead that the problem is fixed because guns were banned. You can't tell the families of stab victims that you're glad they weren't shot.

I am sure the 3000 dead on September the 11th were glad guns weren't used.

Banning things never promoted love, peace and understanding, we need to introduce something good, not take something neutral away.

 

[TrystanGST]

This is why, and it's not about to change: If you are willing to murder someone and risk getting caught, the risk of punishment for carrying an illegal weapon is trivial.

Lets face it - If I wanted to kill someone, and accept that there is a high risk I will be caught, why on earth would I be bothered by the crime of carrying the weapon?

This is the part I've never understood with regards to all the cries to ban something. The people intent on committing the crime don't care about your silly bans.
Banning something doesn't make it disappear - it just makes it illegal to have. Should a regular person have automatic assault rifles? I can't think why, but then banning it won't keep them away from the criminals. And they're the ones shooting people. Not FPS Russia.

 

[RuneBrush]

I believe that every time something like this happens, people read deeper and deeper into "The Problem" rather than looking at the case in isolation and THEN looking at the wider picture. The killer is often somebody who has numerous issues and a catalogue of events resulted in them loosing the plot (simplifying it greatly). The problem is that it's human nature to try and point the finger and go "that's the problem, if we change it, then this can't happen again" when it's nowhere near as simple as that.

I personally don't see how anybody can justify owning any weapon that would allow you to massacre multiple people at once - but that's just my personal opinion and everybody is entitled to their own. People have break downs all the time and when they break down and wish to do others harm they'll grab whatever is closest to hand, however there is a huge difference between grabbing your bread knife and an automatic machine gun.

There is also a big difference between somebody who wishes to commit murder and somebody who is mentally unstable. If somebody wants to murder somebody, any laws and regulations are just a challenge to work round. If somebody suffers a break down then the laws and regulations are there to minimise the damage they can cause.

 

[cassar]

Firts of all i would like to express my deep sorrow at the events that have occurred and seem to occur far too frequently in America its a truly tragic event.
I would like to say having read through the thread that i can see both sides of the argument both for and against, the simple fact is that firearms are weapons designed for one purpose, to kill irrigardless of whether they are used for target shooting, or hunting and that ready access to these tools does facilitate these terrible atrocoties.In the hands of trained proffesionals these weapons are tools used for the purpose they were designed for, Allowing anyone access to these types of "tools" is one of the freedoms in your constitution my question is "how high a price are you willing to pay in innocent lives to exercise this right?" in my book everyone of those victims had the most important right, the right to life.

 

[Einion]

This is the part I've never understood with regards to all the cries to ban something. The people intent on committing the crime don't care about your silly bans.

Exactly the point about cries to outlaw firearms, exert stiffer gun-control measures etc. etc. after such a terrible tragedy such as this. News flash for anyone who has their head in the sand: standard models of gun control don't work (i.e. don't directly lower firearms deaths). This is not an argument in favour of no gun control I want to stress.

The strictest models of gun 'control' are outright bans and there's a lot of data to support the fact that they're essentially useless, both from a positive and negative perspective, so really argument about this specific point is fruitless; continuing debate about the issue really has nothing to do with facts, as is nearly always the case with these sorts of things (q.v. prostitution, drugs) it's really based on moral position/personal philosophy which isn't where good law comes from*.

Guns DO need to be controlled, only an idiot would argue otherwise. The two main issues as I see them are measures designed to keep guns out of the hands of certain people (hard to impossible, but the effort has to be made nonetheless) and restricting ownership or access to certain types of gun. On the latter point, I don't know where the cutoff should be - easy examples might be a rocket launcher or a 20mm cannon - but as you go down the food chain where one draws the line is a very tricky subject.

Ammunition control has certain attractions, but of course this can easily be circumvented or finagled too (as recent cases in the UK and Ireland have shown).

Last point I want to make, least anyone conveniently forget: cars kill more people than guns in most countries, and generally the higher the speed limit the worse this comparison gets. So consider your position carefully if you think that guns should be banned because of the potential for harm.

*Legislators should be willing and able to enact laws they personally find repugnant, if they are provably in the great good.

Einion

 

[StillLifeMiniatures]

I'm local to this incident so that's all that's on the news around here. My facebook feed has been blowing up with angry people demanding that all guns be banned, god becomes mandatory in schools, and the mental health system needs to be revamped. Everyone is so divided and taking to the extremes on these matter. I'm not super pro-gun or anti gun. I think that there's a time and a place for everything, including firearms. I feel that those that want to do harm, will do harm. Guns do make it easier, but I don't think banning guns is going to really help. This one person slipped through the system and did great harm. This happens all too often all around the world but unless you look for a decent news source, you may not know about it.
It being so close to home does make it a bit more scary, especially to us Connecticut folk that have always felt that nothing like this happens in this state.

I was listening to the radio today and it seems that the personalities kept bringing up things that they found sad about the event.... like it's some sort of game or challenge to think of the most terrible circumstance. I found it rather tasteless.

I hope the families find peace soon and that the angry mobs on the social networking sites will stop using this as an excuse to raise the flag for their own causes. To clarify: I enjoy reading debates on issues but I'm bothered by the extremes people are taking with their anger that reduces to name-calling and insults.

There are a lot of things that can fixed in this country but it's not going to totally prevent a whack job from causing pain and suffering.

I'm not sure if the above made any sense.. I think I may have used this thread to express myself more than actually adding any real information or value. Carry on.

 

[Flow]

I'm local to this incident so that's all that's on the news around here. My facebook feed has been blowing up with angry people demanding that all guns be banned, god becomes mandatory in schools, and the mental health system needs to be revamped. Everyone is so divided and taking to the extremes on these matter.

It's driving me nuts a little, honestly. It's a terrible, terrible tragedy, and the outrage hostility so many are having towards one another in the ensuing debate over gun control is just not helping. Nothing is going to be resolved in so heated an argument.

 

[cannon_fodder]

This is all too familiar here in my neck of the woods, but I personally do not see why we must go to the extreme every time this occurs.
Gun 'control' is myth, and only affects the honest people who are scared and are trying to protect themselves (wrongly or not, aside) from the individuals who got them by ill means in the first place. If we ban guns, we reduce sales at the local outdoor supply store, upset an entire community (hunters), reduce direct funding for DoWs and the like, and put undo pressure on the military every time a murder occurs (since thet would be the only 'legal' non-police unit to carry). If someone wants something, they can get it. It isn't a case of what you have so much as why you have it (yes, I grew up target shooting and respect was ingrained in the process for me, I was also a dependent).

In this case, the shooter was deeply troubled (from I know anyway), and is not the type of person that arms should be sold to, so it wasn't a failure of policy so much as a failure of procedure, or ease of access in the home (regulation of shells is also lacking, though...anyone see bowling for columbine?). It is also troubling that mental illness is often seen as an embarrassment and something to hide, so the burden on a family is great, and society, in general here in the US is lacking, as it is the expectation is put on the family to deal with it, not the community (my perceptions may be off, but this is the way I see it).

I also have a big issue with this type of thing because it puts a greater amount of focus behind preventing it next time rather than helping the families and their communities get past the present. Put today first, until tomorrow is able to have your full attention. By the loud outcry of gun control, mental illness, school security, and God (not touching this one in such an informal way, but I do support him and know he's got a special place for the 20 children), we lose sight of the fact that parents lost their children, more lost their personal sense of peace in their own hometown. Lastly, this will go down as 'another school shooting,' and with such a polarizing topic, it will only fuel the fire next time, because this issue will not resolve (unfortunately, we will have it happen again, for reasons I just stated, and because there are only 2 kinds of people in the world: people and people trying to do the right thing.)

Good we can talk about it though, discussion is great, especially when we disagree (I don't want to argue about it, so let's talk). I can't imagine what those parents are going through and they will never have a good Winter Holiday (staying PC here) again. I am also saddened by the fact that they will never get a sense of justice from this, be it the chance to forgive the shooter, or watching the legal system work for a change. I can't even begin to put myself in their place and really don't want to.

 

[cfwheeler58]

Out of respect for the lost and brokenhearted, I am officially requesting Mike ( Dragonsreach )
close this thread....seeing as it's mine and the title directly refers to the tragedy.

Feel free to start a gun control thread, if you like. I am not interested right now.

I sincerely hope that some good comes of this tragedy and that those directly impacted
can see and appreciate it. There is little else for them but their own faith and
whatever comfort family, friends and others can give them.

 

[cannon_fodder]

I agree with your sentiment, and truthfully, did not read everything before jumping in here, but to be fare, you phrased a question regarding gun ownership. It is that last part which we have been addressing.

But DR, I think he has a point . . . this thread is too confrontational at this point, to include myself.

 

[Dragonsreach]

Before I close this thread, I have to admit that the BBC News brought me to tears last night.
The first Funerals of the victims left me in a state of so complete a sympathy with the parents and survivors that I was openly and unashamedly crying.

I cannot fully imagine the horror and loss that these parent are going through, I can only offer my sympathies and compassion as another Human Being.