nazi miniatures

[hestan101]

i see it as fine, i know i cant really imagine but its not just world wars 1 and 2 that have been turned into items for entertainment. far cry 2 is the most blaring example to my mind. it represents very realisticly actually current wars where thousands of innocent people are killed, and in the west we just go, wow! that looks awesome!
i think that things that interactively portray wars currently within living memory shouldnt be accepted as they are, but then again not banned. but if we dont make models of things that need to be remembered, then soon we wont want anything that reminds us of it, and it will be repeated

 

[donga666]

Originally posted by Amazon warrior
...only the losing side was capable of atrocities and war crimes?

Sorry, yes the SS were bad and they did terrible thing in the name of what they believed was right, but that doesn\'t automatically mean that the allies were perfect beings of shining light, you know. Nothing is ever that black-and-white; in a war, pretty much everyone acts like a dick, regardless of which side they\'re on. It\'s just that the winners usually get to write the story afterwards. I think THAT\'S what\'s important to remember.

\'History is written by the winner\'

There are hundreds of years of war-atrocities. No country has clean hands. Does anyone complain when someone paints/models a British soldier from the Boer War - a conflict that saw the invention of the concentration camp! Or a \'100 Years war \'Man at Arms, where entire regions were depopulated by the sword. Or even an Egyptian War Chariot, they may have had bronze weapons but they knew how to commit genocide! Or even an American GI from the Vietnam war... The list goes on.

There is no clean historical subject, I like painting knights. To counter that, I also like to study the history of the time (hence the number of Crusade history books I own).

The same would be true if I was interested in WWII, or any other area of history.

 

[Amazon warrior]

Originally posted by donga666
\'History is written by the winner\'

Darn, that was the phrase I was failing to quite remember! Yes, that.

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Amazon warrior
...only the losing side was capable of atrocities and war crimes?

Sorry, yes the SS were bad and they did terrible thing in the name of what they believed was right, but that doesn\'t automatically mean that the allies were perfect beings of shining light, you know. Nothing is ever that black-and-white; in a war, pretty much everyone acts like a dick, regardless of which side they\'re on. It\'s just that the winners usually get to write the story afterwards. I think THAT\'S what\'s important to remember.

I think you need to read THIS....

I think it\'s safe to say that one side acted like a bigger \'dick\'.

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Originally posted by Amazon warrior
...only the losing side was capable of atrocities and war crimes?

Sorry, yes the SS were bad and they did terrible thing in the name of what they believed was right, but that doesn\'t automatically mean that the allies were perfect beings of shining light, you know. Nothing is ever that black-and-white; in a war, pretty much everyone acts like a dick, regardless of which side they\'re on. It\'s just that the winners usually get to write the story afterwards. I think THAT\'S what\'s important to remember.

I think you need to read THIS....

I think it\'s safe to say that one side acted like a bigger \'dick\'.

I think perhaps you should brush up on some of the interesting things comrade Stalin was cooking up on the other side of the fence as well. Plenty of attrocities there as well. I think Stalin and the purges had a much higher death toll as well. My uncle was a POW from 45 until 53 as well. He had some stories!

And the Americans had a few large scale attacks that killed civilians as well cough-Hiroshima-cough.... cough-Nagasaki-cough.

War is heck, and the one thing ALL sides have in common is issuing weapons to young men and telling them to \"go kill the bad guys\".

I think we can all agree that there should be no models of Australian people though. They\'re all thieves I tell ya!lol

 

[Crackpot]

I sometimes wonder when I see threads along this line that what if WWII had been fought several hundred years ago and not within living memory would therel it still cause as much controversy as it does today.

Good point! I just wondered what would happen if some \"Osama Bin Laden\" or \"Saddam Husein\" miniatures would come out... Oh THAT company better go into hiding! *LOL*

 

[supervike]

I don\'t know. Some of that seems like revisionist history.

The atomic bombing of those cities probably saved as many lives as they tragically took. Japan was NOT going to capitulate in that war, and the thought process at the time was that would be the only way to stop the war. An invasion of the country would inevitably been much more tragic, both for the allied forces, and the Japanese people.

Hindsight makes it much clearer.

I don\'t know if I could call that the bombing an atrocity as much as the rape of Nanking, or the other terrible tragedies they caused on China and the world.

The same with the European front. The Final Solution goes way beyond a war time decision.

I\'m not saying the Allied forces didn\'t do ugly (and definately atrocious) things in order to win, but they did not start either of those wars.

It was the expansionist and brutal mentality of the Axis that caused it.

I\'m glad that Japan, Germany, and Italy are now our allies.

Maybe someday we can include all those middle eastern countries that currently hate us friends, and we can all move together as a society.

 

[Crackpot]

Here we go again...

I knew this diskussion would take this direction...
Wait I get myself some popcorn.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

all through history atrocities have occured.

it\'s just that we don\'t have people left alive from those periods, nor do we have captured picture referance to said atrocities either.

for example, timogin (ghengis khan) was a well known butcher as well as attila the hun.
the roman army was well known for wiping out entire towns (men, women and children) of those who opposed them, just like mr ghengis)
many celtic tribes were head takers, but we all forget these things and concentrate on recent historical events.

i do think the banning of the swass sticka within germany is justified as their are still those who rally to it\'s significance and would again cause said atrocities with a blink of the eye if they had the chance.

and that\'s why we mustn\'t forget history (so painting hitler or ss isn\'t a problem for me, but the swass sticka is as that is the icon that is imbedded in our minds of the arocities caused) not just the military happenings but also civilian as well, such as the fininancial break downs and the irisponsible kensian methods of dealing with them as they can cause as many deaths indirectly as a war.

 

[Crackpot]

i do think the banning of the swass sticka within germany is justified as their are still those who rally to it\'s significance and would again cause said atrocities with a blink of the eye if they had the chance.

Oh come on, that\'s not your real opinion... Do you think, only because some idiots would stick swastika flags in their garden, other people would go on a rampage??? That\'s bollocks! And if you WANT to get a swastika in germany, you get it through the blackmarket or the internet. And do you think in germany the swastika is censored in movies or films? Nooooope!

The symbol of the swastika alone doesn\'t make you a nazi.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Crackpot
The symbol of the swastika alone doesn\'t make you a nazi.

Absolutely right. I really don\'t understand the \'sweep it under the rug\' mentality of some of those German laws. I\'d prefer to see it out in the open. Take the stigma and power away from it by minimalizing it.

Of course, I also don\'t understand why many Americans get so bent out of shape if someone burns an American flag. As long as it is their own flag, why should that bother me?

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by supervike
I don\'t know. Some of that seems like revisionist history.

The atomic bombing of those cities probably saved as many lives as they tragically took. Japan was NOT going to capitulate in that war, and the thought process at the time was that would be the only way to stop the war. An invasion of the country would inevitably been much more tragic, both for the allied forces, and the Japanese people.

Hindsight makes it much clearer.

I don\'t know if I could call that the bombing an atrocity as much as the rape of Nanking, or the other terrible tragedies they caused on China and the world.

The same with the European front. The Final Solution goes way beyond a war time decision.

I\'m not saying the Allied forces didn\'t do ugly (and definately atrocious) things in order to win, but they did not start either of those wars.

It was the expansionist and brutal mentality of the Axis that caused it.

I\'m glad that Japan, Germany, and Italy are now our allies.

Maybe someday we can include all those middle eastern countries that currently hate us friends, and we can all move together as a society.

Oh, no doubt the final solution is by far the greatest example of evil the world has in their memory, and rightly so. Russian pograms and the siberian death camps I believe accounted for more deaths of undesirables ranging from race to political affiliation.... but we\'re getting WAY past my highschool education for me to call on any specifics.

And PROBABLY you\'re right about the A-Bombings. It\'s just that when you think about it somewhere in a room men had to sit down and make the decision to kill (How many died in the bombings? I\'m not sure at all here) and I am sure that if the Americans had lost the war those acts would be considered way more heinous and \"evil\" for their destruction of civilian lives.

My point is that painting mini\'s is all about what draws our interests. I\'m sure they\'re ranges of models depicting the \"bad guys\" of terrorists and such for sale right now. I\'m just saying that I don\'t think it\'s wrong or evil to paint a model no matter it\'s historical signifigance. If we\'re playing a game set in any kind of historical or fantasy setting depicting war then a certain amount of glorification and dehumanizing of the enemy starts to happen though our hobby. Maybe that\'s what the OP is upset with?

Meh, I don\'t even know why I am getting involved with this one. I have a healthy dose of SS models from all sorts fo different scales. And I am going out to the garage this morning to airbrush up some Russian armor (Get your stinking hands off of me you damned dirty Russian!). I can\'t really appreciate the viewpoint of someone in this hobby that\'s chock full of demons, elves who bath in the blood of babies etc. to pick on the poor ole\' SS. I guess it is different though because they actually existed, so maybe it\'s not a fair comparison.

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by Crackpot

i do think the banning of the swass sticka within germany is justified as their are still those who rally to it\'s significance and would again cause said atrocities with a blink of the eye if they had the chance.

Oh come on, that\'s not your real opinion... Do you think, only because some idiots would stick swastika flags in their garden, other people would go on a rampage??? That\'s bollocks! And if you WANT to get a swastika in germany, you get it through the blackmarket or the internet. And do you think in germany the swastika is censored in movies or films? Nooooope!

The symbol of the swastika alone doesn\'t make you a nazi.

I don\'t know that it would cause attrocities to be committed, but I do thin kthe Swastika and the heavy baggage it carries with it may cause a lot of hurt from those members still surviving and bearing scars from the actions of the war, whatever side of the fence they were on. Also of course there\'s a huge difference between the Swastika and the Balkan cross. I\'m pretty sure anyway...

 

[darthfoley]

Originally posted by supervike
I don\'t know. Some of that seems like revisionist history.

The atomic bombing of those cities probably saved as many lives as they tragically took. Japan was NOT going to capitulate in that war, and the thought process at the time was that would be the only way to stop the war. An invasion of the country would inevitably been much more tragic, both for the allied forces, and the Japanese people.

Well, that depends on what source you believe. I\'ve read more than one account that states that Russia was about to join in the full effort in the Pacific, and that if they had Japan had already planned to surrender.

One of those things where every \'expert\' you meet has a conflicting opinion, it seems.

 

[hubbabubba]

I think we should all acknowledge our own duplicity within this context. After all we dedicate our time and money to painting toy soldiers that depict, or celebrate if you will, military, or armed might, the brutality that is associated with armed conflict, death, murder, atrocities, all of which are part of war. Now if you feel that\'s it\'s ok to paint a barbarian holding a severed head as a trophy, but you get squeamish about painting Nazis then that to me is a great irony.
It\'s not really surprising though, we live in a society that celebrates violence constantly through it\'s media and entertainment on the one hand, and then deplores it in reality.
Popcorn anyone?

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by hubbabubba
I think we should all acknowledge our own duplicity within this context. After all we dedicate our time and money to painting toy soldiers that depict, or celebrate if you will, military, or armed might, the brutality that is associated with armed conflict, death, murder, atrocities, all of which are part of war. Now if you feel that\'s it\'s ok to paint a barbarian holding a severed head as a trophy, but you get squeamish about painting Nazis then that to me is a great irony.
It\'s not really surprising though, we live in a society that celebrates violence constantly through it\'s media and entertainment on the one hand, and then deplores it in reality.
Popcorn anyone?

Hey, well said!

 

[gary]

I don\'t really see the problem with models depicting nazis as it\'s not done in any way other than historicaly accurate, it is in my opinion no different than a history book it\'s just a 3d form of reference. As many have said if you can stand a space marine cutting of another guys head whats wrong with a model of a nazi done in a tastefull historical way.

I do find it strange though that some people have the opinion that the allies did anything near equal to the nazis. What the nazis did can never be thought of as part of war because it started long before the decleration of war within there own country. One thing that shocked me about the third reich was there program of euthanasia upon the elderly and the handicapped. At the end of the day anyone within there society deemed as weak didn\'t have a place. I think we need these models so we never forget the great wrong that was done by the third reich.
I find the the phrase that the winners of wars write hostory a tad bit out of place in this case, it might just be my opinion but the bodies of the millions of innocent people murdered by the germans during the war wrote a great deal about the nations brutality (and yes I understand that lots of nations provided conscripts to the death squads so it wasn\'t all germans). I just think the site of a nazi miniature every so often remminds us of a past we don\'t ever want to repeat.

 

[ScottRadom]

You do know the Stalinist \"Allied\" regime has a death toll in excess of the German final sollution? These pograms also extended well past VE day and saw many political undesirables sent to be worked to death in Siberia and many mines, let alone the other more brutal methods used to further the Government ideals.

I know this argument is going far from the point but to declare the German euthanasia and sterilization program as evil and not comparable to programs in the allies I suggest you watch the excellent film \"Judgement at Nuremberg\" and the scene where the German lawyer reads from the texts outlining the sterilization selection procedure from one of the states (Virginia?).

I\'m not defending the Nazi\'s horrible attempt at genocide, simply trying to point out that ALL sides of war are capable of the most awful of actions. Hell, here in Saskatchewan not long ago there were settlements paid out for OUR sterilization program of the mentally disabled.

Also, slightly back on topic, what is your opinion on some of the comedy or horror versions of third reich models? I know theres a Hitler\'s-head-in-a-jar-robot thing out there and countless zombie style SS troops. I\'m okay with that stuff too.

 

[Einion]

Originally posted by hamhamlunchbox
does nobody think that its kinda sick to buy hitlerjugend and ss miniatures?
dont know bout u guys,but i think its disgusting

No. I do think models of Hitler are tasteless and call into question the motivation of the owner but I don\'t think it\'s necessary to have a single, homogeneous, viewpoint on stuff like this. Individual and cultural standards vary, and rightly so.

As far as Hitlerjugend and SS subjects go specifically, I don\'t see a problem with either generally. I\'m not aware of anything pertaining to the Hitlerjugend that would be dodgy, but with the SS as long as it\'s not a figure of, say, a guard at Auschwitz or something like that then it\'s just a soldier with nice-looking kit usually, so no problem there.

Originally posted by tidoco2222
I sometimes wonder when I see threads along this line that what if WWII had been fought several hundred years ago and not within living memory would therel it still cause as much controversy as it does today.

That\'s the crux of the matter; the answer is, clearly, no.

In a hundred years WWII may be so far removed from the personal experience of the average westerner than it\'ll be the norm to think no differently about an SS soldier as one would about a Colonial-era British trooper or a Roman legionary maybe, or a Mongol or Crusader for that matter: guy in a cool uniform, end of story.

Originally posted by hubbabubba
Now if you feel that\'s it\'s ok to paint a barbarian holding a severed head as a trophy, but you get squeamish about painting Nazis then that to me is a great irony.

Originally posted by gary
I don\'t really see the problem with models depicting nazis as it\'s not done in any way other than historicaly accurate, it is in my opinion no different than a history book it\'s just a 3d form of reference. As many have said if you can stand a space marine cutting of another guys head whats wrong with a model of a nazi done in a tastefull historical way.

Right on. Ignoring the historical perspective thing for a sec, as long as models of German soldiers don\'t glorify certain actions I don\'t see a problem. After all, a depiction of US troops flamethrowering Japanese civilians, or Russian troops raping German women and girls would be utterly unacceptable too.

It\'s not the side, politics or philosophy that\'s important, it\'s what the entire depiction is about that\'s key.

Einion

 

[DaGreatQueeg]

Originally posted by ScottRadom

I don\'t know that it would cause attrocities to be committed, but I do thin kthe Swastika and the heavy baggage it carries with it may cause a lot of hurt from those members still surviving and bearing scars from the actions of the war, whatever side of the fence they were on. Also of course there\'s a huge difference between the Swastika and the Balkan cross. I\'m pretty sure anyway...

I agree Scott.

And a couple of other thought provokers for discussion - any idea what African Peoples think when they see the UK Flag, or parts of the east when they see a Dutch standard? Colonial expansion decimated these peoples, their resources and lifestyle, without even going anywhere near slavery. And of course we all know what many of the middle Eastern peoples think of the US Flag.

I guess my point is they\'re symbols which are always going to have good and bad points associated with them. In the case of the swastika it was generally a symbol of good luck for centuries before Nazism adopted and tarnished it. What will banning it actually achieve? Should we ban all symbols because of bad association. Its the Nazis and modern neo-Nazism that needs to be controlled and banned, not historical symbols ...... and personally I hate purchasing German aircraft models with no tail Swastika because of over zealous censorship.

cheers
Brent
DGQ