Need help to make sure im grabbing the right brushes/new tools

[gr33n]

so basically im shelling out for the best tools i can find this time around. im going to start using a wet palette, going to experiment with some additives and of course i need new brushes

The way i figure it, if its good enough for jen haley its good enough for me. I'm going to hopefully test all the stuff she uses but i wana make sure i order the right stuff since no local stores carry these things

I saw a video where she uses davinci 1506 i believe and i know there is some mixture floating around that she supposedly uses of flow improver etc but i also read she changed since someone changed the formula (think it was liquitex)

can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

My advice to you is that if you try to completely mimic some archaic mixing formula of a particularly well-gifted artist, you are likely to end up being frustrated. Keep in mind that Jen's formula is useful for her techniques and style, which has gradually been achieved after years of practice. It's unlikely to suit the average beginner or even intermediary painter. It would be like following Arnold's work out plan and expecting to get big like Arnold. The program works for Arnold because he is a genetic freak with years of training. An entirely different program would be more suited to you.

Of course this is just my opinion, but what isn't opinion is that you can't get wrapped up around exact diluting ratios with particular additives. Some of the best painters just use water. But if you need a direction to head in, why not go with what I believe to be useful to the average good painter. Or what most painters seem to use. Just get some Winsor & Newton Series 7 Watercolour brushes. Then either get some glaze medium from Vallejo, or Lahmian Medium from Citadel. That is if you are layering, of course.

When I hear about some magic formula that is 50 percent water, ten present slow dry, 20 percent mixing medium, etc I think it sounds like a load of rubbish, to quote me British mates. That is making something that is easy too complicated. Once you add all of those things, the paint will act completely different than how it was meant to act, and you'll never learn how to paint properly, especially since different brands and different paints within the same brand act differently to dilution. It should be more of a feeling you get when you wipe the paint off on your thumb to test it. After practicing enough, you'll be able to look at the paint on your skin and tell if it is just right or not.

 

[gr33n]

My advice to you is that if you try to completely mimic some archaic mixing formula of a particularly well-gifted artist, you are likely to end up being frustrated. Keep in mind that Jen's formula is useful for her techniques and style, which has gradually been achieved after years of practice. It's unlikely to suit the average beginner or even intermediary painter. It would be like following Arnold's work out plan and expecting to get big like Arnold. The program works for Arnold because he is a genetic freak with years of training. An entirely different program would be more suited to you.

Of course this is just my opinion, but what isn't opinion is that you can't get wrapped up around exact diluting ratios with particular additives. Some of the best painters just use water. But if you need a direction to head in, why not go with what I believe to be useful to the average good painter. Or what most painters seem to use. Just get some Winsor & Newton Series 7 Watercolour brushes. Then either get some glaze medium from Vallejo, or Lahmian Medium from Citadel. That is if you are layering, of course.

When I hear about some magic formula that is 50 percent water, ten present slow dry, 20 percent mixing medium, etc I think it sounds like a load of rubbish, to quote me British mates. That is making something that is easy too complicated. Once you add all of those things, the paint will act completely different than how it was meant to act, and you'll never learn how to paint properly, especially since different brands and different paints within the same brand act differently to dilution. It should be more of a feeling you get when you wipe the paint off on your thumb to test it. After practicing enough, you'll be able to look at the paint on your skin and tell if it is just right or not.

i didnt really add my "level" or my wall ive hit. im def not an avg painter im always the best painted army or close at the events i attend. ive been around various stores and im not bias to my level like ive seen some... i can do some colors in some areas to an incredibly high standard but my "wall" that ive hit i believe is a matter of how my paint acts. im well aware of how i want my paint to look thinned i just feel i need it to behave in a dif way which is exactly what you are saying and thats good since thats my goal

i can adapt and i learn very fast but there is no point comparing her "formula" to that of arnolds workout because i have no clue where to start with and frankly every person ive ever had give me advice at a gaming store has showed up later that week with HORRIBLY painted minis so ive decided to start at the top and work my way down.

ive browsed so many threads of guys saying its this and that and personal pref here and there but...

- how good are they. ANYONE can post what he thinks on the internet. hes gonna sound great too since im not very exp in this area.
- if someone hasnt tried anything rather than saying "its personal pref" just give them somewhere to start

i have never used additives. I have used a wet palette but had some issues i want to resolve with it such as the paper breaking up, but i just want someone to recommend some top quality additives and some idea where to start so i can start to mix and match my own formula

i also want to grab some high quality brushes because simply better tools make life easier


also the medium from gw. i lied i did try that and it was nice. my question is tho surely there is a "cheaper" medium thats as good. 4 bucks for that small pot. ewww. also i just cant see how all these products that are designed to help paint blend better wont work. im sure if someone gave me 3 dif things to try in various percentages i would arrive at a better place


edit - also saw your mini in the sig. obv you are a good painter i just meant ive been given a lot of bad advice in the past that resulted in wasted cash. as for the watercolor brushes. why those over something else?

 

[Dragonsreach]

OK couple of points to consider;
"the best tools" ---- no such thing, what there is are tools which suite YOU!
"what additives"'--- again individual taste, it's exactly like how you taking your coffee or tea differently to how I do.

What we can do is give you recommendations based upon items we've used and adopted or discarded according to our preferences.
So here's my take:-
Brushes, Windsor & Newton series 7 , Raphael 8404 --- I've used (and continue to use) both. These are watercolour sables and designed to give maximum flow of the liquid paint from the bristle to the subject. Doesn't matter if it's paper or figure the end result is paint on the target.

Paints - take your pick Vallejo Model (Air) Colour, Privateer Press, Reaper, Liquitex (artist tubes) or GW they all do the same thing in the end it's only the costs which really vary dramatically with GW, while undeniably useful, are not the most Cost effective.

Additives - Painting mediums VMC Glaze, Matt, Liquitex slo drying medium, or even a drop of washing up liquid. All work.

Wet Pallettes I changed over this year to using a wet pallette, it's taken a while to get used to one, but I'm happy I did. Now I use the following :-
http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/item-sta--wet-palette-handy-palette.htm

for me that it the best one around. A robust plastic case, not thin or cheap quality, with easily replaced paper and if needed, sponge.

As I and others are suggesting is that slavishly copying Jen Haley, or Marike, or anyone else's tools won't Automatically make you a better painter, only time, effort, experience And Failure Will!

 

[gr33n]

OK couple of points to consider;
"the best tools" ---- no such thing, what there is are tools which suite YOU!
"what additives"'--- again individual taste, it's exactly like how you taking your coffee or tea differently to how I do.

What we can do is give you recommendations based upon items we've used and adopted or discarded according to our preferences.
So here's my take:-
Brushes, Windsor & Newton series 7 , Raphael 8404 --- I've used (and continue to use) both. These are watercolour sables and designed to give maximum flow of the liquid paint from the bristle to the subject. Doesn't matter if it's paper or figure the end result is paint on the target.

Paints - take your pick Vallejo Model (Air) Colour, Privateer Press, Reaper, Liquitex (artist tubes) or GW they all do the same thing in the end it's only the costs which really vary dramatically with GW, while undeniably useful, are not the most Cost effective.

Additives - Painting mediums VMC Glaze, Matt, Liquitex slo drying medium, or even a drop of washing up liquid. All work.

Wet Pallettes I changed over this year to using a wet pallette, it's taken a while to get used to one, but I'm happy I did. Now I use the following :-
http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/item-sta--wet-palette-handy-palette.htm

for me that it the best one around. A robust plastic case, not thin or cheap quality, with easily replaced paper and if needed, sponge.

As I and others are suggesting is that slavishly copying Jen Haley, or Marike, or anyone else's tools won't Automatically make you a better painter, only time, effort, experience And Failure Will!

and i agree except when i dont know who i can trust for my FIRST attempt at finding something i like, its a good idea imo to use a tried and tested method is all.

the thing is tho again i need specifics. i see so many dif types of brushes i just dont wana waste time because i got the wrong one.

- http://www.dickblick.com/products/winsor-and-newton-series-7-kolinsky-sable-miniature-brushes/ is this a good place to start?

- about your "all the paints are the same". not true the GW browns i own have a sheen to them as do the purple and the new (forget the name maybe elf something flesh) is just downright awful at coverage and it clumps up and makes mixing a nightmare so i mean there are degrees i guess... that being said the gw browns i own do blend well so :/

the sheen part brings me to another question tho i had. any recommendations for a matte clearcoat? i had a few i tried maybe 8 years ago that ruined the color (imo) just dulled it too much so ive stayed away. i love the browns from gw but i cant use them if they shine this bad as you cant even see the color its so shiny.

also i wonder if the shiny color would look dif if say the other colors and it receive a coat of matte finish

 

[Dragonsreach]

In answer to the question on the W&N miniature brushes, NO they are designed for watercolours miniature paintings on paper not military miniatures and the transfer to paper from the sable is a totally different methodology in this instance.

About the Matt well a lot of painter use Testors Dullcoate as a final sealant......BUT ALL varnishes change the colour reflectivness of paints and MATT more than most. In competitions I know of some people who do not varnish their figures (BRAVE SOULS) just to keep the colours "Pure". But for painting well VMC Matt Medium added to the paints works well in most cases.

 

[Bailey03]

If you're in the US you may run into trouble finding sable brushes. I believe they've made it difficult to import them. If you can't find the ones you want, you may want to take a look at Scharff Brushes. They're in the US and have plenty of stock. I've been using them for my last few projects and they hold up quite well. The ones you want are their Series 300 Kolinsky Red Sable brushes.

I agree with what BloodFather of Kharnath wrote. Don't rely too much on someone else's formula. Each brand of paint will have some differences and even colors within the same brand will vary. By all means give it a try, just remain flexible and experiment a bit. There are a lot of great painters out there. Learn from them but adapt it when needed to fit your style of painting. I've written a number of tutorials and I always try to get across the message that I don't claim to be doing things the 'right' way, just the way that works for me. I don't expect people to exactly follow my steps, all I'm hoping for is they find some one or two of the ideas helpful.

By the way, one of the nice things about the cool mini forum is that we tend to be more about the painting than the gaming, so I think you'll typically find better advice here than your local game store. The best advice I can give you to improve is start up a work in progress thread. It is a great place to get advice and feedback.

 

[gr33n]

If you're in the US you may run into trouble finding sable brushes. I believe they've made it difficult to import them. If you can't find the ones you want, you may want to take a look at Scharff Brushes. They're in the US and have plenty of stock. I've been using them for my last few projects and they hold up quite well. The ones you want are their Series 300 Kolinsky Red Sable brushes.

I agree with what BloodFather of Kharnath wrote. Don't rely too much on someone else's formula. Each brand of paint will have some differences and even colors within the same brand will vary. By all means give it a try, just remain flexible and experiment a bit. There are a lot of great painters out there. Learn from them but adapt it when needed to fit your style of painting. I've written a number of tutorials and I always try to get across the message that I don't claim to be doing things the 'right' way, just the way that works for me. I don't expect people to exactly follow my steps, all I'm hoping for is they find some one or two of the ideas helpful.

By the way, one of the nice things about the cool mini forum is that we tend to be more about the painting than the gaming, so I think you'll typically find better advice here than your local game store. The best advice I can give you to improve is start up a work in progress thread. It is a great place to get advice and feedback.

this is nice but excessive. i need a recommendation for a good brush. i dont know enough to have personal pref i just want a good set to start of and try out... since i cant get them at a store i need to know EXACTLY what i should order so i dont waste my time

can someone link or post the exact name/model of a brush i should look at?

 

[Bailey03]

Okay, if you're in the US I'd recommend getting this one. It's a good quality brush and I've been quite happy with it.
http://artbrush.com/shop/product.php?productid=1612&cat=4&page=5
or
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.c...ath=29&zenid=0ab86e65aba330877f52758baa0938a2
I like to stick with small sizes, so I ordered the 3/0 and 2/0. But I know a lot of people also use size 0 and 1 as well.

Scharff is a newer brand, but many of the other choices (Windsor Newton Series 7, Raphael, and Da Vinci) are difficult to get in the US at this point in time. I've never used Da Vinci (though I've heard good things), but I've been happy with Windsor Newton Series 7 and Raphael brushes. I've read some recent online reviews about Raphael that complained that their newer brushes haven't been at the same quality as their older ones. I can't speak from personal experience, but it is something to be cautious about.

If you're able to find a source for Windsor Newton, then that would be a great choice too. These are the types I would order (again, sizes 000, 00, 0, and 1 would be a good set).
http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop...brush-round-short-handle-size-0-brush-5007000

 

[gr33n]

Okay, if you're in the US I'd recommend getting this one. It's a good quality brush and I've been quite happy with it.
http://artbrush.com/shop/product.php?productid=1612&cat=4&page=5
or
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.c...ath=29&zenid=0ab86e65aba330877f52758baa0938a2
I like to stick with small sizes, so I ordered the 3/0 and 2/0. But I know a lot of people also use size 0 and 1 as well.

Scharff is a newer brand, but many of the other choices (Windsor Newton Series 7, Raphael, and Da Vinci) are difficult to get in the US at this point in time. I've never used Da Vinci (though I've heard good things), but I've been happy with Windsor Newton Series 7 and Raphael brushes. I've read some recent online reviews about Raphael that complained that their newer brushes haven't been at the same quality as their older ones. I can't speak from personal experience, but it is something to be cautious about.

If you're able to find a source for Windsor Newton, then that would be a great choice too. These are the types I would order (again, sizes 000, 00, 0, and 1 would be a good set).
http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop...brush-round-short-handle-size-0-brush-5007000

now why that and not the miniature version?

 

[Bailey03]

The Windsor newton miniature brushes are similar, just with shorter bristles. They're nice for doing design work, lettering, banners, etc. But with the shorter bristles they hold less paint, so I think the other type is better for general figure painting.

You may prefer the shorter bristles and the control you get from them, so its a bit of a judgement call. I have one or two lying around, but I don't use them very often.

 

[Stewsayer]

My 2c here.

Based on my experience too.

Brushes. A good sable is a good investment. I have used W&N and they were good brushes but I found they didn't last long even though I was looking after them. Quite likely I bought from some bad batches and didn't look after them well enough. I have since been using Raphael 8404 (the standard round not the miniature version). As Bailey noted the mini version (I have a few) are good for very fine detail where you don't want too much paint flowing onto the mini and where the larger brush head can screen the details you are trying to paint. You have to be able to see it to paint it afterall. That said if I can see it past my No.2 brush then it is just as good at doing those tiny details as the mini series one. Oh and my Raph brushes last heaps longer even though i'm lazier about looking after them these days. I started using bigger brushes after reading an article about good brushes by Jen Haley BTW.

Additives. The first question is why do we add or not add them to our paint.
Water. It works well and to a point helps retain the flow properties of the paint we are using. However at some point too much water begins to break down the chemical processes that occur when paint dries. Paint basically consists of pigment, binder and transport medium. The last two are important. The transport medium is what allows the whole thing to flow from brush to mini. It then evaporates allowing the molecules of binder to get close enough to each other and react. They do this trapping the pigment and forming the plastic skin that is the layer of dried paint. The transport is water soluble so adding water extends the amount of it. Too much and the spaces between the binder molecules can get too big resulting in a weak layer of paint. Something I watched suggested that any more than 30% water in a mix will cause this ( the video was based on the Golden artist Acrylics paints I currently use). So then handling becomes an issue (also an issue if you don't prime or don't prime with a proper primer).

So what can we add apart from water. A medium. This adds both transport and binder (depending on its type it may also have varying amounts of matting agent). So problem solved? Not really. Most of the mediums I have used change the flow of the paint. It becomes thicker in consistency while also becoming more transparent (the pigment becomes more spaced out). Thicker to the point where it is next to useless on a mini.

What now? I add water in small amounts and it solves my issues just perfectly for my experience and my painting style. Another solution would be adding a flow additive. I'm not sure what these do but I suspect they are a more liquid combination of binder and transport.

A note. All mediums and additives will change the finish of the dried paint. The matte medium I use does a great job of keeping things matte most of the time. Too many layers and impatience can cause a glossy finish. Fixable with a spray from the AB of the matte medium but as DR says it effects the colours and needs to be accounted for (brighter highlights and a bit more contrast can offset the change). And I haven't had any issues with handling damage (my minis are mostly display though, my Zombicide zombies may not hold up as well).

Brands for mediums. I use Liquitex and Golden both. I have no experience with the new GW stuff. I get 1/2L of Liquitex matte medium for around AU$30. The Golden is a little dearer being a smaller (250ml) container for around AU$20. But it beats the hell out of AU$7 for 15ml GW pots. I have used less than 1/4 of my Liquitex matte medium since I got it 18 months ago.

 

[gr33n]

The Windsor newton miniature brushes are similar, just with shorter bristles. They're nice for doing design work, lettering, banners, etc. But with the shorter bristles they hold less paint, so I think the other type is better for general figure painting.

You may prefer the shorter bristles and the control you get from them, so its a bit of a judgement call. I have one or two lying around, but I don't use them very often.

ah makes sense. since they are rather expensive ill start off with 3 brushes maybe 4. can you recommend sizes that can handle it all? i ask because sizes i read vary from brand to brand and pictures dont always give the best impression


also to the above post. i tried the gw medium and im not sure how much of it was the medium (my lack of shaking) but it dried shiny and also made a red i painted have a shiny area. was odd

 

[Bailey03]

What sizes do you currently use? Or if you're following Jen's technique what does she use?

I tend to work with small brushes for most of my painting, so I'd say 000, 00, and 0. But some people like a larger reservoir for the paint, so maybe 00, 0, and 1 might be better. With a high quality point you can do plenty of fine detail work with any in that range. I'd like to say what the right choice is but best I can do is share my preference.

 

[gr33n]

What sizes do you currently use? Or if you're following Jen's technique what does she use?

I tend to work with small brushes for most of my painting, so I'd say 000, 00, and 0. But some people like a larger reservoir for the paint, so maybe 00, 0, and 1 might be better. With a high quality point you can do plenty of fine detail work with any in that range. I'd like to say what the right choice is but best I can do is share my preference.

currently i use the reaper brushes 1 and 2. i do most of my work with 2 and tbh i can really make a thin thin thin line when i need it. i noticed that i cant really use the 1 too much or the 0 because the paint drys up so quickly.

 

[Bailey03]

Then go with 0, 1, and 2 or just 1 and 2. The paint is going to dry just as quickly on a Windsor newton brush. It sounds like these would fit you better

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

A Reaper Size 2 is a W&N Size 1. If you are looking to get a Raphael 8404, their sizes are the same as Reaper. I know these equivalencies from experience.

If you need Kolinsky Sable brushes in the States, order from Pk-Pro in Germany. They'll get to you in about a week and they keep a decent stock.

The advice I've tried to offer you is not really even my personal preference, but rather the sum of my experiences here on Cool mini and elsewhere, where I have spent hours, no days, of time reading about what works for people out there and what doesn't. I find this more useful than what one great artist may think, simply because by they're being a great artist it is more likely to mean that what works for them wont work for the average painter. I know this is an unusual way of looking at things, but hey, it's served me very well so far. Of course, you are free to discard or use this advice as you see fit.

The best teachers are mediocre artists that have practiced very hard to become good painters.

 

[gr33n]

A Reaper Size 2 is a W&N Size 1. If you are looking to get a Raphael 8404, their sizes are the same as Reaper. I know these equivalencies from experience.

If you need Kolinsky Sable brushes in the States, order from Pk-Pro in Germany. They'll get to you in about a week and they keep a decent stock.

The advice I've tried to offer you is not really even my personal preference, but rather the sum of my experiences here on Cool mini and elsewhere, where I have spent hours, no days, of time reading about what works for people out there and what doesn't. I find this more useful than what one great artist may think, simply because by they're being a great artist it is more likely to mean that what works for them wont work for the average painter. I know this is an unusual way of looking at things, but hey, it's served me very well so far. Of course, you are free to discard or use this advice as you see fit.

The best teachers are mediocre artists that have practiced very hard to become good painters.

geh i was so mistaken i use the 1 most of the time. is it safe to say WN 0 then?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Actually sorry I think Reaper and W&N match up fairly well. I am fairly certain tho that Raphael size 0 is Reaper/WN size 1. Anyway, here is a pic of a Reaper Master Series Size 1, hardly ever used, next to a W&N size 1 on the right. Notice the pronounced tip on the Winsor. It stays that way despite my being rough with my brushes. (I dropped it on the floor and stepped all over it and all sorts of terrible things).

 

[gr33n]

Actually sorry I think Reaper and W&N match up fairly well. I am fairly certain tho that Raphael size 0 is Reaper/WN size 1. Anyway, here is a pic of a Reaper Master Series Size 1, hardly ever used, next to a W&N size 1 on the right. Notice the pronounced tip on the Winsor. It stays that way despite my being rough with my brushes. (I dropped it on the floor and stepped all over it and all sorts of terrible things).

tyvm! im about to pull le trigger but im guessing because they are not wet even so... these look a bit dif than the one you are holding http://www.dickblick.com/items/05002-1001

is yours the miniaturist version? the right one is the reaper left is the winsor but the winsor looks shorter which i thought was a quality of the miniaturist set

sry im just DOUBLE DOUBLE checking to be sure i got it right