NMM: - A triumph of style over substance. Discuss.
- Thread starter finn17
- Start date
holy crap!:wow: this topic has gone all over the place! over easy eggs, forbidden lovechildren, bad jokes, good jokes, and a lot of hagness beating.
out of the 5 pages, the only one about the topic was the first. but i\'m not complainin\', it was really fun (and time consuming) to read.
when i read hagnesses post i was pissed, being a beginner and all, but after 1 or two pages of comments, i began to feel the point had been made.
anyways, there should be more topics like this, where people talk about nothing at all. it just needs to start with a serious, and general subject like Mini painting: what does the future hold? soon we\'ll be talking about fried cheese and tricycles
out of the 5 pages, the only one about the topic was the first. but i\'m not complainin\', it was really fun (and time consuming) to read.
when i read hagnesses post i was pissed, being a beginner and all, but after 1 or two pages of comments, i began to feel the point had been made.
anyways, there should be more topics like this, where people talk about nothing at all. it just needs to start with a serious, and general subject like Mini painting: what does the future hold? soon we\'ll be talking about fried cheese and tricycles
When did you see my diorama?:flip:
Infidel Castro
New member
About MCPG
About Masterclass Painters Group/Forum thingy...and I apologise to Glyn beforehand, but...
I THINK IT\'S TOO ANAL! I was subscribing for a few months and I almost fell asleep reading the topics
. It does everything we do over here on CMON without the humour and razzmatazz lol. And some of the topics are so pernickety (spelling?) and nit-picky...I just had to leave.
The one good point about that site/forum though is the discussion of painted minis as a norm, but to say that they are any less amateur than us \'over here\' is a joke! I quite like the Golden Toads, but think that the general standard of painting \'over there\' is no better than many of ours \'over here\'.
But again, as a disclaimer, I think Glyn has done a good job with the whole Yahoo thing, and it is valuable in its own way, though certainly no more valuable than this here site.
That\'s all I wanna say, and please, please, please tell Glyn I think he\'s great, only his Yahoo group did absolutely nothing for me...same with the Mini Painters group. BORING
Back to the pleasures of AMATEUR PAINTING chaps/chapesses...
Love you all.
Rev (do you think I was being preachy Darkblade? Doesn\'t sound like something I\'d do! lol)
About Masterclass Painters Group/Forum thingy...and I apologise to Glyn beforehand, but...
I THINK IT\'S TOO ANAL! I was subscribing for a few months and I almost fell asleep reading the topics
. It does everything we do over here on CMON without the humour and razzmatazz lol. And some of the topics are so pernickety (spelling?) and nit-picky...I just had to leave. The one good point about that site/forum though is the discussion of painted minis as a norm, but to say that they are any less amateur than us \'over here\' is a joke! I quite like the Golden Toads, but think that the general standard of painting \'over there\' is no better than many of ours \'over here\'.
But again, as a disclaimer, I think Glyn has done a good job with the whole Yahoo thing, and it is valuable in its own way, though certainly no more valuable than this here site.
That\'s all I wanna say, and please, please, please tell Glyn I think he\'s great, only his Yahoo group did absolutely nothing for me...same with the Mini Painters group. BORING
Back to the pleasures of AMATEUR PAINTING chaps/chapesses...
Love you all.
Rev (do you think I was being preachy Darkblade? Doesn\'t sound like something I\'d do! lol)
R
RLobinske
Guest
Coming in on this late with my observations (from an old-timer).
NMM really is the fad of the day, whether it will last or not, we really can\'t tell yet.
Personally, I find that it is a lot of work for something that almost, but not exactly, looks unlike metal.
The vast majority I have seen here and other locations, the \'silver\' looks like stone and the \'gold\' looks like amber. In maybe 1% of examples does the effect really look like metal. I am also one of those that find the static, 2-D nature a problem.
That said, you can do some wonderful effects with NMM, it it is a very useful method of teaching how light falls and is reflected on surfaces.
If an individual painter thinks it will work best, I think they should use it. If you think you should use it because it\'s trendy or \"you have to use it to score well\", then you should reconsider.
I find it interesting that there has been little mention of the scale metal replication paints like Metalizer or Alclad. These were developed for the scale aircraft hobbiest and produce increadibly fine and realistic metal surfaces that you can tell steel from aluminum with. They produce a finish that I find very satisfying and produce a reflectivity that works extremely well on weapons and armor.
For contests, I do tend to avoid figure contests because so few use objective standards and primiarily use the \"judges stare at the models for a couple hours\" method, then they declare a winner. This judging is susceptible to biases in the judges, both to individual and to techniques. If a judge things NMM is the best thing since indoor plumbing, the judge could easily (and unconscioulsy) use presence/absence of NMM as a scoring point.
NMM really is the fad of the day, whether it will last or not, we really can\'t tell yet.
Personally, I find that it is a lot of work for something that almost, but not exactly, looks unlike metal.
The vast majority I have seen here and other locations, the \'silver\' looks like stone and the \'gold\' looks like amber. In maybe 1% of examples does the effect really look like metal. I am also one of those that find the static, 2-D nature a problem.
That said, you can do some wonderful effects with NMM, it it is a very useful method of teaching how light falls and is reflected on surfaces.
If an individual painter thinks it will work best, I think they should use it. If you think you should use it because it\'s trendy or \"you have to use it to score well\", then you should reconsider.
I find it interesting that there has been little mention of the scale metal replication paints like Metalizer or Alclad. These were developed for the scale aircraft hobbiest and produce increadibly fine and realistic metal surfaces that you can tell steel from aluminum with. They produce a finish that I find very satisfying and produce a reflectivity that works extremely well on weapons and armor.
For contests, I do tend to avoid figure contests because so few use objective standards and primiarily use the \"judges stare at the models for a couple hours\" method, then they declare a winner. This judging is susceptible to biases in the judges, both to individual and to techniques. If a judge things NMM is the best thing since indoor plumbing, the judge could easily (and unconscioulsy) use presence/absence of NMM as a scoring point.
Infidel Castro
New member
True
New methods/styles do tend to take precedence over older, more established techniques/styles. It is certainly difficult to maintain an unbiased approach, but I think that by now, having seen so much of both M and NMM, it is easy to pick out good and bad immediately.
rev :innocent:
New methods/styles do tend to take precedence over older, more established techniques/styles. It is certainly difficult to maintain an unbiased approach, but I think that by now, having seen so much of both M and NMM, it is easy to pick out good and bad immediately.
rev :innocent:
R
RLobinske
Guest
National Model Railroad Association and International Plastic Modelers Society.
Both are large model groups with long histories. The nationals for each dwarf the number of entries at a Golden Demon. They instituted judging standards many years ago.
Interestingly, with a good guide and a score sheet, these judges can do a better, more consistant and faster job than the \"wander the room and stare\" method.
The NMRA judging guidelines are at:
http://www.nmra.org/achievement/pdf/99judgid.pdf
(this is a fairly large document, so may take a while to load depending on your local connection speed).
The judgeing forms:
http://www.nmra.org/achievement/pdf/scoresheet.pdf
Been a while since I did anything with IPMS, but they probably have their forms online too.
tooshy
Active member
Soapbox
Hmmm..well it\'s just taken ages to read this thread and a very interesting read it has been too!
Personally I\'d like to be able to do NMM and SE-NMM because I think it looks amazing when it\'s done well. But having said that, it doesn\'t sway my decision when reviewing a model on CMON. At the end of the day, we will judge models based on our own likes and dislikes - its human nature. What I may rate as mediocre, someone else may rave about.
I think NMM brings a certain \'something\' to a model - I saw it first on the Rackham site. I liked the look of the weapons - the colouring made them \'feel\' heavy and gave them a worn/used feel. I always thought that a quick brushing over with mithril silver looked kinda fake and I agree that it does take more than this to use metallic paints on weapons etc.
There are plenty of pics on CMON that don\'t have NMM, but are stunning figures nonetheless - surely both styles of painting can stand side-by-side?
I\'ve attached a pic of Arjay\'s (hope he doesn\'t mind) which just blew me away. On this figure he has managed to \'fool\' my eyes into seeing chrome and the more I look at it, the more my brain becomes confused! :duh: :duh:
<sigh> I just like what I like and that\'s about it really.....
Hmmm..well it\'s just taken ages to read this thread and a very interesting read it has been too!
Personally I\'d like to be able to do NMM and SE-NMM because I think it looks amazing when it\'s done well. But having said that, it doesn\'t sway my decision when reviewing a model on CMON. At the end of the day, we will judge models based on our own likes and dislikes - its human nature. What I may rate as mediocre, someone else may rave about.
I think NMM brings a certain \'something\' to a model - I saw it first on the Rackham site. I liked the look of the weapons - the colouring made them \'feel\' heavy and gave them a worn/used feel. I always thought that a quick brushing over with mithril silver looked kinda fake and I agree that it does take more than this to use metallic paints on weapons etc.
There are plenty of pics on CMON that don\'t have NMM, but are stunning figures nonetheless - surely both styles of painting can stand side-by-side?
I\'ve attached a pic of Arjay\'s (hope he doesn\'t mind) which just blew me away. On this figure he has managed to \'fool\' my eyes into seeing chrome and the more I look at it, the more my brain becomes confused! :duh: :duh:
<sigh> I just like what I like and that\'s about it really.....
Drool...drool...
Arjay is a god! That chrome looks better than some of the ....chrome....I\'ve seen.
If I wanted the \'pedant of the week\' award I might ask what a barbarian would be doing with a chrome axe, or even what had happened to his nipples? (Perhaps he tried shaving his chest with that axe of hislol)
Aaah... One day! Keep up the good work Arjay. You are an inspiration.:flip:
Arjay is a god! That chrome looks better than some of the ....chrome....I\'ve seen.
If I wanted the \'pedant of the week\' award I might ask what a barbarian would be doing with a chrome axe, or even what had happened to his nipples? (Perhaps he tried shaving his chest with that axe of hislol)
Aaah... One day! Keep up the good work Arjay. You are an inspiration.:flip:
Infidel Castro
New member
Wow!
Doesn\'t that piece look like Kurt Russell in Stargate!?
Uncanny
Here\'s another aside, but maybe we could start a thread with links to minis that look LIKE someone in real life?
Whaddayathink?
I\'ve got a China Town mini that looks like Aneurin Bevan! By the way, for those outside of the UK, he was the founder of the NHS (National Health Service) over here, although it is believed he actually implemented it rather than thought it up. Or something. If anybody is interested, I can start a thread on this one! So? Yea or nay?
rev
Doesn\'t that piece look like Kurt Russell in Stargate!?
Uncanny
Here\'s another aside, but maybe we could start a thread with links to minis that look LIKE someone in real life?
Whaddayathink?
I\'ve got a China Town mini that looks like Aneurin Bevan! By the way, for those outside of the UK, he was the founder of the NHS (National Health Service) over here, although it is believed he actually implemented it rather than thought it up. Or something. If anybody is interested, I can start a thread on this one! So? Yea or nay?
rev
I think, in this case, NMM is style AND substance. It is an arts thing, in wich form easily equates essence.
In my opinion, NMM works best on the style of minis where you have these humongus weapons, and relatively clean, featurless surfaces. Examples of this type you can find all over the place, but the infamous Celtois Fiannas pop to mind.
Now, on more \"realistically styled\" minis, I find that regular metallics are though to beat, especially the paints sold by \"serious\" modelling companies like Humbrol and Tamiya. (Heck!, Some of those can even be polished!!!).
So, I\'d say it is a fair bet to say that an average mini will rarely display NMM, and that superb NMM is not usually something you see on an average model.
In my opinion, NMM works best on the style of minis where you have these humongus weapons, and relatively clean, featurless surfaces. Examples of this type you can find all over the place, but the infamous Celtois Fiannas pop to mind.
Now, on more \"realistically styled\" minis, I find that regular metallics are though to beat, especially the paints sold by \"serious\" modelling companies like Humbrol and Tamiya. (Heck!, Some of those can even be polished!!!).
So, I\'d say it is a fair bet to say that an average mini will rarely display NMM, and that superb NMM is not usually something you see on an average model.
darthfoley
Active member
Originally posted by reverend
Doesn\'t that piece look like Kurt Russell in Stargate!?
Here\'s another aside, but maybe we could start a thread with links to minis that look LIKE someone in real life?
Whaddayathink?
If anybody is interested, I can start a thread on this one! So? Yea or nay?
rev
I\'m chiming in a little late on this, but it sounds interesting to me.
I always thought Kay-Finn looked like Brock Lesnar... :flip:metallics
Hi folks!
after spending more than 1 hour to read all the postings on this topic i must add my 1 cent as well. In my opinion it is impossible to paint real good looking metal with the nmm technique. The mini will allways look like a comic figure ( btw if you do nmm the right way it must be 2 - dimensional wich means that you can fiew thw mini only from one angle). I use NMM for applications, rank signs etc. on casuals but a good amour has to be metallic.
Some examples
This is painted with overhead lighting and it needs a lot of shadows and highlights as well wich is not so easy to realize with metallic coulors. I have messed up a lot of figures to find the right technique.
Be honest ! Do you think that it will be possible to paint this amour in NMM?
cheers fredy
Hi folks!
after spending more than 1 hour to read all the postings on this topic i must add my 1 cent as well. In my opinion it is impossible to paint real good looking metal with the nmm technique. The mini will allways look like a comic figure ( btw if you do nmm the right way it must be 2 - dimensional wich means that you can fiew thw mini only from one angle). I use NMM for applications, rank signs etc. on casuals but a good amour has to be metallic.
Some examples
This is painted with overhead lighting and it needs a lot of shadows and highlights as well wich is not so easy to realize with metallic coulors. I have messed up a lot of figures to find the right technique.
Be honest ! Do you think that it will be possible to paint this amour in NMM?
cheers fredy
E
elouchard
Guest
Fredy,
I know how you feel with metallics. What is intersting with NMM is that one has to work really hard to put reflections and highlights just right so they make sense in a photo, while with metallics, proper lighting will give the same reflections. It just won\'t get the exxagerated ground reflections.
By the way, which metallic paints do you use on your figures? I\'m guessing not water based as they are so smooth on the larger scale figures.
Eric
I know how you feel with metallics. What is intersting with NMM is that one has to work really hard to put reflections and highlights just right so they make sense in a photo, while with metallics, proper lighting will give the same reflections. It just won\'t get the exxagerated ground reflections.
By the way, which metallic paints do you use on your figures? I\'m guessing not water based as they are so smooth on the larger scale figures.
Eric
I haven\'t actually tried out NMM yet but will soon.
As to it\'s uses, I think that will be very suited to the kind of \'heroic\' style of painting and figures, such as Rackham and some others. ( I hesitate to use the term\'style over substance\' here.)
I wouldn\'t use it on, say historical or even LoTR minis, cause it wouldn\' look right. But 40k, Warhammer, Rackham, etc. are a different thing entirely.
Looking at the piccy of the barbarian with axe, I must say it looks superb. Is the NMM effect portayed correctly in it, especially with regard to the horisontal line on the blade, and the upper shaft end? (see the thread I started on this matter)
As to it\'s uses, I think that will be very suited to the kind of \'heroic\' style of painting and figures, such as Rackham and some others. ( I hesitate to use the term\'style over substance\' here.)
I wouldn\'t use it on, say historical or even LoTR minis, cause it wouldn\' look right. But 40k, Warhammer, Rackham, etc. are a different thing entirely.
Looking at the piccy of the barbarian with axe, I must say it looks superb. Is the NMM effect portayed correctly in it, especially with regard to the horisontal line on the blade, and the upper shaft end? (see the thread I started on this matter)
coulors
Hi finn - i dont know why it is not possible to upload - maybe the images are of to high res. Give me your mail adress and i sent it to you.
Hi Eric!
I use printers inks mixed with oil coulors an a acryllic basecoat. You are right with water base coulors it is impossible to blend them smooth enough. I have learned this technique in the european historical scene ( they work all with metallics ). But i use nmm as well on the smaler minis ( 28mm ) for coulored armour for example. i think both techniques are great and everybody should use what he likes. At the end of the day only the final result counts.
happy painting
Fredy
Hi finn - i dont know why it is not possible to upload - maybe the images are of to high res. Give me your mail adress and i sent it to you.
Hi Eric!
I use printers inks mixed with oil coulors an a acryllic basecoat. You are right with water base coulors it is impossible to blend them smooth enough. I have learned this technique in the european historical scene ( they work all with metallics ). But i use nmm as well on the smaler minis ( 28mm ) for coulored armour for example. i think both techniques are great and everybody should use what he likes. At the end of the day only the final result counts.
happy painting
Fredy
