obama\'s call for suspending trials on alleged terrorists

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Dragonsreach

Originally posted by Evil Dave
So for me it\'s not a question of morals or principles, it\'s a question of is one mans or even a group of mens civil liberties worth more than the lives of potentially hundreds of thousands or more? A simple cost vs. benefit analysis.

And yet You have made such strenuous arguments here against the potential removal of [/b]Your[/b] rights, should the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States be altered.
So by that stance you would demand the protection of your own rights and yet willing be complicit in the denial of others rights, such as to open and free judical trials.

Is that a Double Standard?

No, it is not.
Those that practice the Second Amendment do so while following the laws that are in the books.
As far as I know blowing up innocents is pretty much illegal everywhere.
Those that are killing others with guns are very, very rarely those that have obtained them legally.
Taking away law abiding citizens guns, who use them for home defense, merely creates more victims while doing absolutely nothing about illegal guns.

Cost = Sky High, along with the very real possibility of revolt, resulting in massive bloodshed. High possibility of creating domestic groups dedicated to overthrowing the US government. Fighting these groups, jailing them, providing for them would cost billions in dollars and probably hundreds of thousands in lives. The criminal element will still obtain guns illegally from Mexico and a new black market will be created. Crime will most likely rise as criminals will be emboldened as no one will have guns for home defense.
Benefit = A very small percentile drop in accidental shootings, and suicides by shooting, which are infinitesimal in comparison to murders by illegal guns.
(Which are also a super small number when there are over 6 million guns in the US and rising and an average of 26,000 gun murders a year and dropping since \'96)
Will probably have a corresponding rise in accidental deaths by other means as idiots will always be idiots, and a corresponding rise in suicide by other means as those who wish to kill themselves will.

Now, if you want to deny this right to those who have already proven they are not responsible enough to keep this right, then by all means, I agree. Rights have responsibilities, a lesson which is dying in both our countries I think.

The Geneva Conventions state that unlawful Combatants if captured (and not shot on the spot) are to be given Military Tribunals. They are not afforded the rights of US citizens nor even the legal status of POW\'s. If anything, Iraq has more of a right to decide how they are tried than anyone does as the majority are their citizens who have committed crimes on their soil.

 

[ScottRadom]

Evil Dave- I don\'t disagree with your stance of having to bend your principles as a whole in the face of extreme siutations. I don\'t think there is a parent out there who wouldn\'t kill without hesitation to save there children from evil.

The thing for me in this instance is the situation needs to be immediate, extreme, and very, very temporary for me to abandodn or alter my moral code. I don\'t go for the \"Times chabge, so I/we need to change ourselves morally\" to accomadate the new threats and potential cources of harm.

I don\'t think Gitmo is a very effective source for either preventing harm to Americans. If these are the methods required to keep (x) people alive today then fine, but I\'ve never heard anything positive come from the facility. If they could say \"Our methods are extreme, but the results led to gethering intelligence that broke up a cell in (insert awful place here)\" then perhaps I\'d feel different.

Gitmo is a source of shame for most Americans I think. It certainly doesn\'t help the global perception of your country. Shutting it down will be perceived as a step forward towards a brighter tomorrow I think.

 

[nadine]

Gitmo should be closed and in the future all unlawful combatants captured should just be shot on the spot.

Problem solved!

 

[sturmkraehe]

Unbelievable...

I find it just amazing that people still think that Gitmo was a good idea. And please don\'t spew this \"You don\'t know what combat is like\" crap at me. I was at Fallujah in the aftermath of April 2004 and while I wasn\'t in the battle itself I participated in operations there and saw more than my fill of \'the horror\' of war. This experience doesn\'t make me any more qualified to comment on the situation and if you, Evil, have any similar experiences you would know this to be the case.

It is a proven fact that torture (or whatever it is you decide to call what we were doing to the detainees in Gitmo) does NOT yield relevant information. There are successfully proven ways to interrogate subjects and they do not involve pain, injury, or even threat of injury. I joined the military to honorably serve my country. That commitment was twisted to serve the ends of an administration that lied, obfuscated, and bullied the people they were supposed to serve. The ends do not justify the means and we are fortunate that we are now serving under a president who respects the rule of law. Hopefully it isn\'t too late.

 

[sturmkraehe]

Originally posted by nadine
Gitmo should be closed and in the future all unlawful combatants captured should just be shot on the spot.

Problem solved!

Or how about beheaded? It ends the same way and saves ammunition. Brilliant!

 

[ScottRadom]

And welcome to the boards Sturmkraehe!

 

[sturmkraehe]

Thanks...been perusing the minis for a long time but finally had to post

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
In reality, in a fight for your survival, principles are often dropped first and very easily.

That\'s no doubt true in cases when individuals are in dangerous, traumatizing situations where their lives are at risk. What\'s the excuse for a nation, whose existence is in no immediate peril whatsoever, choosing to drop its principles for the sake of pure expediency? Because that\'s what the legal no man\'s land of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp was. No standards of humane treatment, no consistent accountability, and no rules other than those the jailers chose to impose on themselves. That\'s what is so \"un-American\" about it. And that\'s why Obama pretty much had to promise that his government would \"do its business in the light of day\".

And torture... it works so well that Omar Khadr claimed he saw Maher Arar at a terrorist training camp.. at a time when Arar was in Canada under surveillance! He\'d probably have said he saw him on the moon, if that\'s what it took to avoid another dunking.

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by sturmkraehe
Thanks...been perusing the minis for a long time but finally had to post

Yeah, it\'s always the passionate subjects that push people from lurker to poster. You\'re here now! No going back!

For me it wasn\'t torture or anything like that. It was actually another post by UberDark ranting about the cost of the newest Space Marine Codex. Way to go UberDark! That\'s two lurkers drawn into the light!

...we now return to you regularly scheduled heated debate...

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

So for me it\'s not a question of morals or principles, it\'s a question of is one mans or even a group of mens civil liberties worth more than the lives of potentially hundreds of thousands or more? A simple cost vs. benefit analysis.

In theory this is true, but you forget that the \"benefit\" isn�t proven. There is no guarantee or proof that the people detained have done or had intended to do these crimes. It�s comparable to the american governmant saying that 25% of american citizens cheat in taxes, and we have pulled your name out of a hat and decided to fine you for tax-evasion - the reason: you live in America, and you have an income, so you have a high statictically risk of being guilty.

Who makes the call - who decides who is important enough to kill in order to defend, and how many people can you kill to save one? how many - maybe - innocents can you kill to save one? how many foreigners can you kill to save an american?

You can�t answer questions like these!?!

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Those that practice the Second Amendment do so while following the laws that are in the books.
As far as I know blowing up innocents is pretty much illegal everywhere.
Those that are killing others with guns are very, very rarely those that have obtained them legally.
Taking away law abiding citizens guns, who use them for home defense, merely creates more victims while doing absolutely nothing about illegal guns.

Cost = Sky High, along with the very real possibility of revolt, resulting in massive bloodshed. High possibility of creating domestic groups dedicated to overthrowing the US government. Fighting these groups, jailing them, providing for them would cost billions in dollars and probably hundreds of thousands in lives. The criminal element will still obtain guns illegally from Mexico and a new black market will be created. Crime will most likely rise as criminals will be emboldened as no one will have guns for home defense.
Benefit = A very small percentile drop in accidental shootings, and suicides by shooting, which are infinitesimal in comparison to murders by illegal guns.
(Which are also a super small number when there are over 6 million guns in the US and rising and an average of 26,000 gun murders a year and dropping since \'96)
Will probably have a corresponding rise in accidental deaths by other means as idiots will always be idiots, and a corresponding rise in suicide by other means as those who wish to kill themselves will.

Now, if you want to deny this right to those who have already proven they are not responsible enough to keep this right, then by all means, I agree. Rights have responsibilities, a lesson which is dying in both our countries I think.

I had to comment on this as well allthough somewhat off-topic.

I have no doubt that there are a LOT of people in the states who know their weapons and know how to avoid almost any kind of accidents with weapons. However they cant guarantee that their weapons won�t get stolen, and statistically a VERY high number of american shootings are with stolen weapons. And there are so many stolen weapons because it�s so easy to obtain weapons legally.

NO matter how or why there are somany shootings in america I would really worry about living in a country with stats like these:

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

Some of the more scary:

Children and Gun Violence

* America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children\'s Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
* In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children\'s Defense Fund)
[size= 4]* The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. [/size](Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

America and Gun Violence

* Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
* The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
* American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

According to Americans for Gun Safety (December 2002), gun theft is most likely in states without laws requiring safe storage of firearms in the home and where there are large numbers of gun owners and relatively high crime rates. Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars, most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage. To access \"Stolen Guns: Arming the Enemy\" visit www.agsfoundation.com.

* The American Medical Association reports that between 36% and 50% of male eleventh graders believe that they could easily get a gun if they wanted one.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Ok, Vike, hypothetical situation:
Somehow you get transported back in time and you end up in Germany and you have the chance to kill Hitler before he comes to power.
Do you commit murder, which I am sure is against your \"principles\" or do you let your \"principles\" condemn millions to death?

Another example: I know you\'re a big union guy, but say your job locks you out, you\'re about to lose your house, your kids haven\'t had a meal in three days. There is a job, however, you have to cross a picket line. You have to be a scab.
Do you take the job, or do you let your kids starve because of principle? Would you steal to feed them?

My \"principles\" are not biblical, so I\'m not opposed to murder. Kill one guy to save millions? Sure, why not? But, if it\'s hypothetically, why are those my only choices....Couldn\'t I just buy a few of Hitler\'s early art works, convincing him that he is not a \'failed artist\', and he starts a grand career of art and society. Becoming a famous artist, and not a mass murdering lunatic.

Secondly, I\'m not a \'big union guy\'. I belong to a Union, I was an officer for some time, but I don\'t subscribe to all the politics and mindless rot that has become too prevalent in todays labor movement. I do belive Unions are necessary, and important in the corporate world we live in. Why shouldn\'t employees enjoy some of the benefits of prosperity that they helped create for a company? Yes, I think there are Unions that are too greedy for their own good. I also think that about CEOs.

Would I cross a picket line? I doubt it. But, in honesty I guess I\'d have to know the entire situation. Again, why couldn\'t I just go elsewhere, pick up cans, mow lawns...

Would I steal to feed my family if they were starving. Absolutely, if I had no other choice.

But, that is the weakness in your your argument is that you have only given me two choices. It\'s not always that black and white. It\'s not do I kill Hitler, or don\'t I...or do I cross the picket line or not....

What I\'m saying is that as American\'s we should stand for something more than the terrorists. If we lower ourselves to get what we want, THEY win.

Is it ok for a policeman to torture a suspect until they confess? Or to shoot a kid holding a knife? Criminals can do it, why not Cops?

The answer is that we EXPECT the police (and our country) to behave differently, we hold them to higher standards.

Maybe it\'s not fair, but the price of winning at all costs is all too expensive.

 

[Avelorn]

Great post Vike! Could not agree more!! :beer:

 

[Elly3438]

I don\'t normally like to get involved in politics like discussions, but I\'m bored and waiting for some putty to dry

I have no love for terrorists. Do what you will with them, they gave up their right for life when they plot to blow themselves up on innocent people.
Someone mentioned you don\'t know what it\'s like to almost lose a child... well, many Iraqi\'s are left with shattered families weekly because of the \"evil-doers.\" Has everyone forgotten 9/11 already? I used to be all fluffy and \"you just have to talk to them and negotiate, there\'s no reason to kick some ass,\" but now I find that silly. Terrorists, to me, are insane. You take the middle eastern religious fanatics, who believe they will have 72 virgins or something when they die because some ancient book and invisible man made them that promise. (though I don\'t know what they would do when the virgins run out, mail order some more?) You think they can be reasoned with? Go to your nearest church and try to talk someone out of believing in the ridiculous nonsense known as Christianity. Religion is poison, and has poisoned the minds of so many people, but that\'s a subject in itself...

Now, don\'t think I agree with what idiot Bush has done, you know, going into the wrong country and occupying it, making it a terrorist hive and breeding new terrorists by killing too many innocents in pursuit of the wrong freakin guy. Bush was a disgrace and an embarrassment. I\'m still waiting for Osama Bin Laden to be brought to justice.
Anyways, I can agree that torture doesn\'t work... but releasing them is not an option. These people are animals, and when an animal is rabid and sick in the head, you have to put it down before it causes more harm to the world.

As for Obama? I voted for him because I felt I had to (Palin omg wtf!) but now the name annoys the crap out of me. Everyday it\'s \"Obama this!\" and \"Obama that!\" People compare him to Lincoln and FDR, and he hasn\'t even done anything except make promises he won\'t be able to fulfill. There\'s T-shirts, baseball hats, coins, buttons, panties who knows, make a million bucks by selling something with Obama on it. Just makes me SICK. (and oh yeah don\'t forget about his plan to turn the whole country into construction workers... the land of opportunity! Come fill potholes in ten times the amount of time it should take to milk the clock at 25 bucks an hour, only to do a crappy job and have to do it again 6 months later! YEEEEAH!)

 

[slah]

Originally posted by Elly3438
Anyways, I can agree that torture doesn\'t work... but releasing them is not an option. These people are animals, and when an animal is rabid and sick in the head, you have to put it down before it causes more harm to the world.

The entire cruel and unjust punishment/ capital punishment discussion notwithstanding, the entire problem with Guantanomo is that there is no proof that the detainees in fact are \"animals\".

There is no proof that these people in fact are a danger to the rest of the world.

(well - there may be proof, but for some reason the state haven´t wanted to try them for their crimes, and that should basically mean the same)

 

[philologus]

The great thing about the CMON fora is: I can leave for months and come back, only to find the same arguements repeated. It\'s like some unholy union of prescription meds a time warp and a 12-step group. How about some suggestions for the next thread? Golly, could we please have more of the following:

1.Abortion
2.Gun Control
3.Is mini-painting really art?
4.What\'s NMM?
5.Is NMM better than metallics?
6.Is this comment about mini \"X\" appropriate/mean/made me cry etc.
7.Ebay Sucks
8.GW Sucks
9.Games Day judging is unfair
10.My mini got a 1 and deserves a 10


Seriously, can\'t we sticky a couple of these topics so folks can post ad nauseum without creating new threads?

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by philologus
The great thing about the CMON fora is: I can leave for months and come back, only to find the same arguements repeated. It\'s like some unholy union of prescription meds a time warp and a 12-step group. How about some suggestions for the next thread? Golly, could we please have more of the following:

1.Abortion
2.Gun Control
3.Is mini-painting really art?
4.What\'s NMM?
5.Is NMM better than metallics?
6.Is this comment about mini \"X\" appropriate/mean/made me cry etc.
7.Ebay Sucks
8.GW Sucks
9.Games Day judging is unfair
10.My mini got a 1 and deserves a 10


Seriously, can\'t we sticky a couple of these topics so folks can post ad nauseum without creating new threads?

You forgot.....

11. People complaining that the same argument/discussions keep taking placelol

 

[slah]

Originally posted by philologus
The great thing about the CMON fora is: I can leave for months and come back, only to find the same arguements repeated. It\'s like some unholy union of prescription meds a time warp and a 12-step group. How about some suggestions for the next thread? Golly, could we please have more of the following:

1.Abortion
2.Gun Control
3.Is mini-painting really art?
4.What\'s NMM?
5.Is NMM better than metallics?
6.Is this comment about mini \"X\" appropriate/mean/made me cry etc.
7.Ebay Sucks
8.GW Sucks
9.Games Day judging is unfair
10.My mini got a 1 and deserves a 10


Seriously, can\'t we sticky a couple of these topics so folks can post ad nauseum without creating new threads?

Thank god there are enough decent intelligent and well-written topics on the forums that makes it possible to spit at the 2k postcount -mark.....

 

[geaugan]

As yet, as far as I know, no American has walked into a building to blow himself up and to murder a few children with a load of ball bearings. To accomplish What? If that isn\'t EVIL I don\'t know what is.

 

[ScottRadom]

Originally posted by geaugan
As yet, as far as I know, no American has walked into a building to blow himself up and to murder a few children with a load of ball bearings. To accomplish What? If that isn\'t EVIL I don\'t know what is.

Wellllllll..... to be fair when was the last time a terrorist carpet bombed with B-52 strikes an entire village?

When you need to make a point in the most extreme way and all you got is a half-ton truck and some fertilizer you use what you got. I\'m sure if terrorists could get a hold of 20 armored divisions and advanced sattelite guided Cruise missiles we\'d see the end of suicide bombing all together.

I\'m not condoning suicide bombing or targetting of non combat personelle but it\'s that whole point of the debate being that we\'ve got two sides playing by different rules and whether side a should start playing by side b\'s rules or not.

I think. ?

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by cole-slah
Thank god there are enough decent intelligent and well-written topics on the forums that makes it possible to spit at the 2k postcount -mark.....

What the hell does this mean? You do know you technically have to be 18 to post here.