You can pull how many horror stories you want... it still doesn\'t change the fact that a lot of people have perfectly legit reasons for needing organ transplants. If people refuse to donate their organs because of the slight risk of accidentally helping an asshole, then lots of people will die needlessly and lots of useful organs will rot or get burnt up.
Please read.
- Thread starter Ebonbuddha
- Start date
I give blood because I want to... less so recently because the vampires have been very clumsy and it has been painful for days and a few times weeks after.
It\'s my choice though and mainly because I ride a 1000cc motorbike in central london every day and I\'ll be needing it back.
I certainly don\'t consider it bad form to not donate... lets face it, we can all live on one kidney so why don\'t we all give one up right now? Thought not ;o)
It\'s personal choice, it\'s not evill to wish to know where your things are going after you die... not one single person would give their house up after death to the government to give it away to someone you don\'t know! not one... and it\'s not like you\'ll be needing that after you die, is it?
They are your parts, just as your remaining cash is and your property and what you do with it is your business.
Nobody has a right to judge another for wanting to keep their bits while dead or alive.
Am I selfish for visiting Africa? It means I can\'t give blood for a good while. Am I selfish for getting sh*t faced on New Year? it means my liver is less useful for a donor.
Our bodies are deeply deeply personal things and wanting to give up parts or keep parts isn\'t supposed to \"make sense\" to others.
p.s. tea and biccies after giving blood rocks... as does the head rush when you go for a quick jog after lol
It\'s my choice though and mainly because I ride a 1000cc motorbike in central london every day and I\'ll be needing it back.
I certainly don\'t consider it bad form to not donate... lets face it, we can all live on one kidney so why don\'t we all give one up right now? Thought not ;o)
It\'s personal choice, it\'s not evill to wish to know where your things are going after you die... not one single person would give their house up after death to the government to give it away to someone you don\'t know! not one... and it\'s not like you\'ll be needing that after you die, is it?
They are your parts, just as your remaining cash is and your property and what you do with it is your business.
Nobody has a right to judge another for wanting to keep their bits while dead or alive.
Am I selfish for visiting Africa? It means I can\'t give blood for a good while. Am I selfish for getting sh*t faced on New Year? it means my liver is less useful for a donor.
Our bodies are deeply deeply personal things and wanting to give up parts or keep parts isn\'t supposed to \"make sense\" to others.
p.s. tea and biccies after giving blood rocks... as does the head rush when you go for a quick jog after lol
I don\'t think anyone has suggested that it is evil not to donate your organs. I merely responded to suggestions that it is a bad thing to donate organs because it might help someone who doesn\'t deserve being helped.
Besides, comparing your organs with your property is not very accurate. Your organs must be used fairly immediately, so you can\'t really plan in advance who\'s going to be helped by them. Then it\'s the matter of compatibility further limiting the choice...
Besides, comparing your organs with your property is not very accurate. Your organs must be used fairly immediately, so you can\'t really plan in advance who\'s going to be helped by them. Then it\'s the matter of compatibility further limiting the choice...
Just offering an anecdote, mate, nothing more. But perhaps I should give my official stance on donorship then?
People get old and die. It happens. When there\'s organ failure, for whatever reason, people die. Our bodies are not meant to go on forever, they\'re meant to stop working. I know that we don\'t want our loved ones to die, and I know this sounds as though I have less sympathy than I should, but that would not be correct. Maybe I just don\'t value life as much as others, or I\'m just happier to accept death, rather than to cling to life, cheating death, worrying about not existing in the morning.
Accident victims and children are the real victims, the rest of us just have old, diseased bodies.
Before anyone gets me wrong, I\'m not suggesting that no-one should donate organs. Just please try to understand that not everyone has the same opinion, life experiences or values.
What your response means though is that there should be a reason not to donate and that reason will be deemed worthy or unworthy.
The timing is unimportant really, it\'s something that will change as medicine progresses and organ harvesting techniques improve.
What is important is that our basic human rights remain intact and that bullying or coercing people in to donating should never be acceptable.
I am, myself, a donor and am more than happy for someone to benefit from my death (so long as a close relative of someone in need doesn\'t kill me so my parts can be recycled). But what people do is, should be, and should always be entirely up to them with no outside persuasion or guilt applied.
I feel for the family of the loved one who provided one of the livers \"used\" by George Best for example. I would totally understand their reluctance to endorse being a donor.
The timing is unimportant really, it\'s something that will change as medicine progresses and organ harvesting techniques improve.
What is important is that our basic human rights remain intact and that bullying or coercing people in to donating should never be acceptable.
I am, myself, a donor and am more than happy for someone to benefit from my death (so long as a close relative of someone in need doesn\'t kill me so my parts can be recycled). But what people do is, should be, and should always be entirely up to them with no outside persuasion or guilt applied.
I feel for the family of the loved one who provided one of the livers \"used\" by George Best for example. I would totally understand their reluctance to endorse being a donor.
@squidders
What I reacted to was this:
That statement suggests that I am doing a bad thing by donating my organs upon my death. I don\'t have a problem with people deciding for themselves if they want to donate or not, but I reacted to the idea that I, or anyone else who have signed up for donation, is doing a bad thing because we might help an asshole. That accidentally helping an asshole would outweigh the good of all the other people who get to live a bit longer seems like a bizarre idea to me.
What I reacted to was this:
That statement suggests that I am doing a bad thing by donating my organs upon my death. I don\'t have a problem with people deciding for themselves if they want to donate or not, but I reacted to the idea that I, or anyone else who have signed up for donation, is doing a bad thing because we might help an asshole. That accidentally helping an asshole would outweigh the good of all the other people who get to live a bit longer seems like a bizarre idea to me.
Well... we\'re all arseholes (the human species generally) so I admit, that is a bit of a moot point.
But, feelings are strange things... some people feel their being followed, others feel there are terrorists behind everything wrong in the world.
And for some people, I guess the pros and cons of saving someones life are hard to deal with... who would like to donate an organ to the next hitler / Pol Pot / Vlad the impaler? Yes, I know these are extreme cases but it\'s a massive complex issue and what we can easily dismiss as \"never going to happen\" others cannot.
But, feelings are strange things... some people feel their being followed, others feel there are terrorists behind everything wrong in the world.
And for some people, I guess the pros and cons of saving someones life are hard to deal with... who would like to donate an organ to the next hitler / Pol Pot / Vlad the impaler? Yes, I know these are extreme cases but it\'s a massive complex issue and what we can easily dismiss as \"never going to happen\" others cannot.
I think you\'re mixing things up a bit. Some people would rather not donate because they might help an arsehole. Others would rather not donate because of the strain it places on the health system, the resources required to perform a transplant. Well, that\'s when people are forced to justify why they haven\'t signed up for organ donation yet. Reality is that maybe they just don\'t give a shit. One of the worst ways to make people care about anything is to make them feel bad about it.
Edit: Or maybe they\'re just given to a certain amount of misanthropy.
I know people have many reasons not to donate. That\'s not what I\'m talking about. I reacted to what I quoted. Only that! I don\'t care if someone decides not to donate (although it would indeed be sad if no one did), but if they also claim that donating is bad, that annoys me. For the same reason someone might feel it\'s annoying to have their decision not to donate questioned.
wow!!! where to start...this is just sad all around with a conversation of this magnitude and when everyone\'s morals and ethics are brought into question one must really look at things from an objective point of view, but this conversation really hits at our core beliefs and many of you i feel are getting heated about this and rightly so from both ends. well here is a comment that i would like to respond to.
farseerlum said \"i have no say on what happens to my organs after i give them up. i don\'t want to give an alchaholic a new liver. i don\'t want to give new lungs to a smoker. it doesn\'t matter a whole lot to me that they mostly mend their ways and take better care of themselves. \"
wow! this is something that makes me look back at my life over the past year. two years ago i could see myself saying that. but here is something to consider, farseerlum, what if the alcoholic sees the error of his ways and changes himself because of this organ transplant? what if this causes such a dramatic change in his life that he becomes a speaker at schools and affects more lives and stops thousands of kids from drinking, drugs, and other things. now by your rationale, you say \"forget em\' they get what they deserve.\" but by being less compassionate you can/could inadvertantly hurt hundreds more. how does that sit on your plate?
i give money to these bums over in Indianapolis every week when i go to paint minis, i have seen them on the news, and they apparently all work together to live in hotels together and drink and do drugs, so why keep giving them money? they will just spend it on drugs and alcohol right? well, i have a belief in the good of man. what if this one time i give him money, he says to himself, \"woah, this is stupid i need to turn my life around.\" and instead of buying drugs, he calls someone for help. this is what i do. i hope.... hope is a very powerful thing and i truly believe it. so i ask you farseerlum, the next time you come to a judgement about someone think outside of the dichotymous box i feel you are in and see past the black and white. because their are so many more variables to consider than \"smoking=no help for you.\"
just something to consider for you all.
farseerlum said \"i have no say on what happens to my organs after i give them up. i don\'t want to give an alchaholic a new liver. i don\'t want to give new lungs to a smoker. it doesn\'t matter a whole lot to me that they mostly mend their ways and take better care of themselves. \"
wow! this is something that makes me look back at my life over the past year. two years ago i could see myself saying that. but here is something to consider, farseerlum, what if the alcoholic sees the error of his ways and changes himself because of this organ transplant? what if this causes such a dramatic change in his life that he becomes a speaker at schools and affects more lives and stops thousands of kids from drinking, drugs, and other things. now by your rationale, you say \"forget em\' they get what they deserve.\" but by being less compassionate you can/could inadvertantly hurt hundreds more. how does that sit on your plate?
i give money to these bums over in Indianapolis every week when i go to paint minis, i have seen them on the news, and they apparently all work together to live in hotels together and drink and do drugs, so why keep giving them money? they will just spend it on drugs and alcohol right? well, i have a belief in the good of man. what if this one time i give him money, he says to himself, \"woah, this is stupid i need to turn my life around.\" and instead of buying drugs, he calls someone for help. this is what i do. i hope.... hope is a very powerful thing and i truly believe it. so i ask you farseerlum, the next time you come to a judgement about someone think outside of the dichotymous box i feel you are in and see past the black and white. because their are so many more variables to consider than \"smoking=no help for you.\"
just something to consider for you all.
Well I\'m a donor, can\'t donate blood though. In Europe from 91 to 93 (something about mad cow). But just had a thought about this and a thread that was brought up earlier, the one on the future of minis. And here it is; If I donate my organs and the \"donor personalty switch\" happens to whomever gets my \'stuff\'. And they start to hoard shinies, does that me I\'m working for GW after I die?
farseerlum
New member
statistically alholocs are a good place to put new livers. %90 + abstain for the rest of their life and become much better people. i doubt they help raise alcholism awareness more than non-alcholics.
the shame of it is some poor young person has a headlight shunted into their gut by a drunken driver. and they died because an achoholic killed his liver also and was higher up the waiting list.
the good a reformed drinker does compared to the harm an active driker does is pretty insignificate.
@ritual. that was 1 of three reasons. it was my most personal one to be sure but the economic ones to me are pretty strong reasons also.
don\'t get too hung up on me not help selfinflicted organ loss. my issue is more to do with the fact i have no choice over who they go to. i can\'t stipulate that my family gets first dibs. i can\'t stipulate that my power of attourny can veto donations to people with very high mortality risk after transplant.
and yes i am of the belief that people that give organs are putting extra strain on the health system. but i do not blame them for that. nor do i blame the people wanting them. nor do i blame the doctors who are getting very good at new procedures.
it\'s just the way the system is headed.
old people with running down bodies will put huge strain on a system and compete with young people who may only need 1 operation to be fit for the rest of their lives.
farseerlum said: \"statistically alholocs are a good place to put new livers. %90 + abstain for the rest of their life and become much better people. i doubt they help raise alcholism awareness more than non-alcholics.
the shame of it is some poor young person has a headlight shunted into their gut by a drunken driver. and they died because an achoholic killed his liver also and was higher up the waiting list.
the good a reformed drinker does compared to the harm an active driker does is pretty insignificate.\"
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yeah you are totally right man, one insignificant life is all it is. yeah i guess your right.... so what if its your own childs life who could have been saved, if not for the guy who stopped and started helping?
if you see it half empty that is all it will ever be for you.
the world can be cruel in many ways, i do not discount this, but i choose to live in a better light. you have heard of karma, the rule of three, and judge not lest ye be judged.
three different religions and they all pretty much say the same thing. you create the magic. if ppl continue to see the world from this point of view then nothing will ever change, and that is sad.
my stepmother told me once, \"john, try to change the world now, because by the time your 30 you will have become bitter and realize there is nothing you can do to change it.\" that little quote stuck with me, and I fervently DO NOT believe it. my hope is that this post helps you or others see things a little bit differently and what you take from it is what you decide to take. thats a hell of a lot better than, \"sorry for your luck pal, but another person deserves this more than you.\"
sorry if it comes off preachy... i am actually more agnostic than anything. but i do believe \"we create the magic\" as my wife says. so i guess its up to us to change the problem. any ideas that can help instead of being hurtful to others?
p.s. farseerlum, i hope this does not discourage you from talking to me, i mean no ill will toward you or am upset with you in any way. i value your comments and opinions even if i do not believe in them. as i said before this is an issue that attacks each persons core morals, ethics, and values. so i hope i didnt come off as an ass.
yep thats all i am sayin, i hope i didnt sound like an ass.
lol
i am waiting for undave to quote me on that one. he has been waiting for a line like that one for months.
lol
the shame of it is some poor young person has a headlight shunted into their gut by a drunken driver. and they died because an achoholic killed his liver also and was higher up the waiting list.
the good a reformed drinker does compared to the harm an active driker does is pretty insignificate.\"
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yeah you are totally right man, one insignificant life is all it is. yeah i guess your right.... so what if its your own childs life who could have been saved, if not for the guy who stopped and started helping?
if you see it half empty that is all it will ever be for you.
the world can be cruel in many ways, i do not discount this, but i choose to live in a better light. you have heard of karma, the rule of three, and judge not lest ye be judged.
three different religions and they all pretty much say the same thing. you create the magic. if ppl continue to see the world from this point of view then nothing will ever change, and that is sad.
my stepmother told me once, \"john, try to change the world now, because by the time your 30 you will have become bitter and realize there is nothing you can do to change it.\" that little quote stuck with me, and I fervently DO NOT believe it. my hope is that this post helps you or others see things a little bit differently and what you take from it is what you decide to take. thats a hell of a lot better than, \"sorry for your luck pal, but another person deserves this more than you.\"
sorry if it comes off preachy... i am actually more agnostic than anything. but i do believe \"we create the magic\" as my wife says. so i guess its up to us to change the problem. any ideas that can help instead of being hurtful to others?
p.s. farseerlum, i hope this does not discourage you from talking to me, i mean no ill will toward you or am upset with you in any way. i value your comments and opinions even if i do not believe in them. as i said before this is an issue that attacks each persons core morals, ethics, and values. so i hope i didnt come off as an ass.
yep thats all i am sayin, i hope i didnt sound like an ass.
lol
i am waiting for undave to quote me on that one. he has been waiting for a line like that one for months.
lol
farseerlum
New member
karma is as karma does.
the thing of it is i actually think my way is better for the whole community. some think the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
so i\'m vulcan.
there are 10 million americans without healthcare insurance. they can\'t afford it. if my way keeps medical costs down for the whole community i am in fact helping others.
the thing of it is i actually think my way is better for the whole community. some think the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
so i\'m vulcan.
there are 10 million americans without healthcare insurance. they can\'t afford it. if my way keeps medical costs down for the whole community i am in fact helping others.
Avelorn
Sven Jonsson
@Uber: Well said! That is pretty much my philosophy too. i try to fend of my cynisism every day.. I hope I\'ll never grow bitter.
@Farseerlum: You can solve that with a national health care program. People often talk about costs because they are easily calculated while gains are harder to grasp. If someone for example is rehabilitated and able to work then the system has saved a lot of money.
And where are all these *ssholes? I\'ve met very few in my life... I mean I know alcoholics and I would give them a liver if I died. One taught me how to play the piano.. Not before I\'d give it to a child though, but that\'s another question.
Most people are just trying to get their world to function. They are just like you and me or anyone else. Some just have had it rough. Sometimes it\'s becuase of their own choices, sometimes becuase of things they could not control. But... i don\'t like a society that you can\'t make a mistake in, that cements you stuck in a position where you can\'t get out. No, we can\'t help everyone and some will hurt others in their path. But giving up.. equals... giving up. And then we give up on our potentiality too. We grow cynic and unhappy. I don\'t say helping is always being nice and giving people what they want. You can help someone by demanding things too... but you always need to be able to show a way out as well, or else the whip means nothing else then torture. We can be many things and what I want the society to do is helping each of us to be a better person. To be our best, reach our potential how little or how big that is.
i try to fend of my cynisism every day.. I hope I\'ll never grow bitter.@Farseerlum: You can solve that with a national health care program. People often talk about costs because they are easily calculated while gains are harder to grasp. If someone for example is rehabilitated and able to work then the system has saved a lot of money.
And where are all these *ssholes? I\'ve met very few in my life... I mean I know alcoholics and I would give them a liver if I died. One taught me how to play the piano..
Not before I\'d give it to a child though, but that\'s another question. Most people are just trying to get their world to function. They are just like you and me or anyone else. Some just have had it rough. Sometimes it\'s becuase of their own choices, sometimes becuase of things they could not control. But... i don\'t like a society that you can\'t make a mistake in, that cements you stuck in a position where you can\'t get out. No, we can\'t help everyone and some will hurt others in their path. But giving up.. equals... giving up. And then we give up on our potentiality too. We grow cynic and unhappy. I don\'t say helping is always being nice and giving people what they want. You can help someone by demanding things too... but you always need to be able to show a way out as well, or else the whip means nothing else then torture. We can be many things and what I want the society to do is helping each of us to be a better person. To be our best, reach our potential how little or how big that is.
farseerlum
New member
i guess i need to spell it out in caps.
SPENDING MONEY ON FUTILE OPERATIONS TAKES MONEY AWAY FROM OPERATIONS THAT GET PEOPLE BACK INTO PRODUCTIVE LIVES.
avelorn you even admit that. rehabilltaing a person saves us all money and spreads the cost. you are just baulking at the simple fact that some people will never really be healthy again.
i\'m sure you al lthing i\'m a heartless jerk. well fine. my family needs healthcare, they need food and somewhere to live. it\'s getting too damn hard to keep up on all three. you can bet our health will be the one to suffer. i\'m not going to make it even worse for my grandchildren.
SPENDING MONEY ON FUTILE OPERATIONS TAKES MONEY AWAY FROM OPERATIONS THAT GET PEOPLE BACK INTO PRODUCTIVE LIVES.
avelorn you even admit that. rehabilltaing a person saves us all money and spreads the cost. you are just baulking at the simple fact that some people will never really be healthy again.
i\'m sure you al lthing i\'m a heartless jerk. well fine. my family needs healthcare, they need food and somewhere to live. it\'s getting too damn hard to keep up on all three. you can bet our health will be the one to suffer. i\'m not going to make it even worse for my grandchildren.
