Please read.

[uberdark]

Originally posted by farseerlum
i guess i need to spell it out in caps.

SPENDING MONEY ON FUTILE OPERATIONS TAKES MONEY AWAY FROM OPERATIONS THAT GET PEOPLE BACK INTO PRODUCTIVE LIVES.

avelorn you even admit that. rehabilltaing a person saves us all money and spreads the cost. you are just baulking at the simple fact that some people will never really be healthy again.

i\'m sure you al lthing i\'m a heartless jerk. well fine. my family needs healthcare, they need food and somewhere to live. it\'s getting too damn hard to keep up on all three. you can bet our health will be the one to suffer. i\'m not going to make it even worse for my grandchildren.

yes, but when do you stop pounding on a persons chest and decide they are dead if they are a doctor. doctor\'s live by the hypocratic oath, and i have to admit if i came into a hospital and the doctor said \"ooh ummm, sorry your 31, you have led a good life, but since you smoked for 5 years, and have diabetes, i am gonna have to pass.\"

well that goes against the hypocratic oath. everyone tries and does their best, but the way you are going is going with the battlefield medic ideal. \"ok, we can save this one, but not him, let him die.\" things change at different circumstances and to generalize it as being \"help the ones who can survive longer, trivializes your concept.\"

what if a fine upstanding member of society who in his 30\'s got his liver transplanted, and never had problems drkinking, but just bad genetics, a year later murders 3 people in a store, cause he had a bad day?

how does this help society then? this is the problem man, you can call it from both sides, the old fogey who changes his life, or goes back to drinking or the young guy who keeps on going living a great life, or turns all postal.

hell i need proper medical care for some of my family, but because of the fact that its not life threatening we would have to pay for it out of the pocket. so i am out of luck that way, but i still live on and manage to get through life with a smile and what not. i just feel by shunning others you will in the end, inadvertantly hurt you and your own without knowing it.

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by uberdark
i just feel by shunning others you will in the end, inadvertantly hurt you and your own without knowing it.

*neutrally presenting another point of view*
How about minimising our impact on the people around us? People jump up and down about how selfish smokers are, how they are so inconsiderate, and how they create health hazards for those around them. Does someone demanding a liver transplant not impose themselves on society too? Creating a health hazard, because medical resources are being used elsewhere? Inconsiderate smokers impose their ill habits on us, those who receive transplants impose their failing bodies on us. In the end, it\'s all an imposition on society, isn\'t it? Isn\'t making use of a health system to receive a transplant just a little bit selfish?
[/devil\'s advocate]

A colleague of mine has cancer, and she\'s getting chaemotherapy at such minimal cost. I know my taxes are going towards it, and I don\'t mind. One day, I might do the same. But do I wear the attitude that I already paid for it, or do I try to minimise my impact on society?

 

[Swordwind]

Originally posted by Modderrhu
Precisely so! People always get defensive when their values are questioned. And downright nasty when someone tries to force different values down their throat - a trend that it seemed this thread was starting to take, me thinks, m\'lord.

You wont like this then.

 

[Avelorn]

@Farseerlum: I don\'t think you are a heartless jerk! And if you were I\'d donate a heart for you if you died!

Good that you spelled it out like that, cause that\'s not really how I interpreted your earlier posts. I agree that modern science pose a problem where we probably in the future have to choose when we die. And we can\'t keep people alive forever. But I as uberdark don\'t count a middleage smoker with lungcancer to that category.

And there are better places to cut costs then in health-care anyways.

@Mod: Difference is that they do it directly I guess. i don\'t see us legally putting other people to death because of organs anytime soon. But I agree that you should try to minimise your impact on health-costs. Both for your own sake and all others.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

I find a lot of the things said interesting. It is funny how some of the colder reaction as said so easily. Especially since it isn’t their family member. I have played with that little boy in the video. He loves his mommy and daddy, and trains. In that order.
That woman was at my wedding and welcomed me to the family without flinching or a drop of false sincerity. This is while the reception hall was peppered with faux smiles and warm greetings.
She isn’t an alcoholic or use illegal drugs. She is just a woman who wants to see her child grow up. Just like everyone else. I wonder how many people would be willing to just give up the ghost if there was a chance to save their life.

 

[Dragonsreach]

This has turned out to be a very intersting topic. (Understatement!)

Farseerlum, you\'ve taken a very difficult standpoint and admirably are trying to defend it.
However I do differ from your point of view.
\"SPENDING MONEY ON FUTILE OPERATIONS TAKES MONEY AWAY FROM OPERATIONS THAT GET PEOPLE BACK INTO PRODUCTIVE LIVES.\"
At what point does an operation become futile?, at 10 I had my appendix removed as it had ruptured, at 25 I had several feet of bowel removed because of abmormal growths. 100 years ago both of these operations would have been \"pointless\" as survivability chances from either of them would have been poor to say the least.
The capacilty of anyone of us to live a purposeful life following an operation, organ transplant or not, should not be deemed to be a solely financial matter. The potential for a purposful life that each one of has is dependant upon circumstances, and circumstances change.

The choice of changing ones life following an operation such as a transplant could be seen by a Christian as a \"personal salvation\" and by a Humanist like myself as a developmental turning point.
To be blunt saying that you will refuse to donate your organs because they might go to someone who is \"unworthy\" makes no sense to me. By your argument you\'d deny anyone the chance to rethink or rebuild their lives.

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by Swordwind
You wont like this then.

Apples and oranges, dear boy. Assuming consent is not the same thing as calling someone a cold-hearted bastard. The first assumes everyone would like to be a donor, the second accuses someone of wayward sentiment, and tries to guilt people into being better people, kinda like Ebonbuddha\'s post just above this one.

@Ebonbuddha: I know, I\'m one of the cold ones. But believe me when I say that I feel with you, simply because I\'ve been in similar situations. I\'ve played with toddlers that aren\'t around anymore, and one of them, I foolishly loved. I\'ve got enough guilt of my own that no-one else\'s is going to stick.

 

[Avelorn]

@Mod: Guilt or shame?

You don\'t have to answer. But reflect upon it as it is two different paths to take to get rid of them.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

I’m not trying to guilt anyone into anything. I was pointing out how wrong you nay sayers are. I am even more amazed at the hypocrisy that dwells on this site.

People carry on and on about ‘inappropriate’ behavior and images because of ‘the children’. Yet it is ok for said children to see you be selfish, ignorant, and hypocritical.

Look at it like this; What ever you feel about me will not affect this woman. You not liking organ donation will not affect her. But talking about my wife’s cousin problem can possibly help more people and show people that it might be a good thing.

Originally posted by Modderrhu

Originally posted by Swordwind
You wont like this then.

Apples and oranges, dear boy. Assuming consent is not the same thing as calling someone a cold-hearted bastard. The first assumes everyone would like to be a donor, the second accuses someone of wayward sentiment, and tries to guilt people into being better people, kinda like Ebonbuddha\'s post just above this one.

@Ebonbuddha: I know, I\'m one of the cold ones. But believe me when I say that I feel with you, simply because I\'ve been in similar situations. I\'ve played with toddlers that aren\'t around anymore, and one of them, I foolishly loved. I\'ve got enough guilt of my own that no-one else\'s is going to stick.

 

[DrEvilmonki]

Wow what a bunch of arsehats. I think ebbonbuddha has reacted to you in a very civilized and understated way.

Well I ain\'t so civilized. You are a bunch of self righteous dicks for your opinions.

You are complete arseholes for holding your arguments on a thread of a member who is going through an extremely stressful time.

 

[farseerlum]

yes i apologise for that. i was under the impression that this was a past tense request. as in X happend and i\'m asking for your help to prevent it in the future. i was pointing out it doesn\'t prevent X.

reguardless it wasn\'t the right thread to have that discussion in for which i apologise to ebonbuddah for. i also thank ebonbuddah for the maturity to understand we weren\'t talking about his family case but rather a related issue. most internet dwellers would have gone off rank thinking it was a personal attack.

i also wasn\'t intending for it to be marathon on the subject but i can\'t let it go easily and a lot of people reacted back in ways i thought was misrepresentative of my postition.

as for my self-righteous opinion... aren\'t they all? you\'ll just have to live with that without my apologies

 

[Ebonbuddha]

I am just amazed at how oblivious you are. How will it not prevent X? By your thinking, no one should ever try to prevent something from happening. I am diabetic. I have been diabetic for almost ten years. I should have died in 1998. Should I have avoided the insulin treatments?

I need $1000 US to get an operation right now. This operation might help me even further. Cash is really tight right now. I’m not some kid in Africa or the victim of a natural disaster. There will never be any telethons or charities for me. Should I ignore it and stop trying to fix the problem because X (in this case possible death) can’t be prevented?

When you are sick, do you ignore it and let it take its course or do you take medicine? Why bother with medicine, you can’t prevent X (in this case relief from the symptoms). Right?

By the way; save your apologies. Half assed sincerity belongs in the same place half assed work…In the shitter.

Originally posted by farseerlum
yes i apologise for that. i was under the impression that this was a past tense request. as in X happend and i\'m asking for your help to prevent it in the future. i was pointing out it doesn\'t prevent X.

reguardless it wasn\'t the right thread to have that discussion in for which i apologise to ebonbuddah for. i also thank ebonbuddah for the maturity to understand we weren\'t talking about his family case but rather a related issue. most internet dwellers would have gone off rank thinking it was a personal attack.

i also wasn\'t intending for it to be marathon on the subject but i can\'t let it go easily and a lot of people reacted back in ways i thought was misrepresentative of my postition.

as for my self-righteous opinion... aren\'t they all? you\'ll just have to live with that without my apologies

 

[farseerlum]

there are more people that want organs than can ever be supplied by people.

and if you do keep everyone alive longer then even more people will need organs.

i really can\'t understand how anyone thinks they are solving any problems for others. at best they are postponing them. at worst they are making it harder for anyone to get treatment since there are so many more people wanting operations.

you can spend all you want on your own health. it\'s your right to do so. why should other people help you though? because on the whole we like a healthy society and $1000 for treatment is trivial. if you ilved in australia then my $ would in fact be helping you have your operation.

you can bend my words to fit whatever extreme position you think i\'m taking. feel free to think i want the world dead and i won\'t help. ignore the fact i have personally risked my life a number of times and actually saved three peoples lives by my actions.

have you wondered how much your $1000 treatment would cost if the wards weren\'t full of chronically dying people choking up the works for years on end?

do what you want. i really don\'t care. but by the same token don\'t tell me what i should feel or do.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

Yeah. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Or you are standing by what you said in public because you feel you are being attacked.

Donating more will help more people. It is just that simple. Not everyone needs donated organs. Certain people do.

This information comes from the Organ Donation and transplant Organization of Canada.

Fact:
In Canada in 2006, people on the waiting list for an organ donation: 4240
People who died while on the waiting list: 243 (5 people per week)

People who were withdrawn from the waiting list: 471*
• Withdrawn:
A) Too sick to receive a transplant.
B) Have elected to be removed from the list
C) Have clinically improved and no longer require a transplant.



Remember all of those sick people you talk about in the infirmary…Some of them might be in need of an organ donor.

You talked about personally saving lives? What in the hell do you think organ donors do? They were going to die anyway. Why did you bother saving them? That is if you truly did save people in real life.

And one other thing; I made a mistake. I meant $10,000 US .

I’m just lucky Sir Fredrick Banting didn’t take you view on things.

Yes, you can do what you want. But your kind of thinking reminds me of some of the people I was around in Alabama. Any American can tell you what people think about people from Alabama.

Take care of yourself. I really hope you are in need of the same services you say are a waste. Then you will appreciate it.